Benchmark

[+trailslug]

I found a benchmark while I was backpacking and marked it on my GPS. Now it is not on the list and I can not find a place to log it in. Any ideas. Help

[evenfall]

Gosh Trailslug,

 

Have you looked in the FAQ?

 

Good luck!

 

Rob

Edited April 8, 2005 by evenfall

[+Red_Cedars]

Rather than start a new thread, I'll just tag my question on here.

 

I believe I've found SY0110, but due to recent development in the area, the mark has been paved over and is now in the roadway. There is a spike/disk sort of thing right where the mark should be. I've logged it as a "Found" at Geocaching.com (above link) because I feel it meets the requirements. But does it meet the requirements to log as found with a new description at the NGS site?

 

Thanks,

R_C

 

P.S. I've not given up on the "KING" station. I'll post some on that later.

[+seventhings]

Red_Cedars

 

Were I in your shoes, I would report the recovery to NGS as "Not Found" and add descriptive text saying that the disk has apparently been paved over.

 

Of course, I would log it as "didn't find it" in Geocaching, as well. My personal standard is that I must read the stamping on the disk before I claim a find.

 

But there are no fixed standards for Geocaching logs.

 

That object you found at/real close to the station's location may not be sufficiently close to the location to satisfy professional surveyor standards, etc etc.

 

Will

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Red_Cedars,

 

I'm sorry to have to disappoint you, but I don't think that is the mark you were looking for.

 

The accepted practice here is to be able to read the stampings on the disk. In this case it would be "R 297". According to the written description on the datasheet, the disk is in concrete and is about a foot higher than the road & at the corner of the church parking lot.

 

What you found is a new "temporary" survey mark used by the contractor who did the expansion work in that area. There is a good chance that the disk may still be at the corner of the parking lot in a "Planting area".

 

Good luck benchmarking,

 

John

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Red_Cedars -

 

I must agree with 7 and 2.

 

I'd log this as a Not Found on the Geocaching site. As per the benchmark FAQ,

You can log "Found it!" if you see the marker and know that it is the correct marker. If the marker is a survey disk, you must read the disk. The designation (its name) stamped on it must match the Designation in the description.

It is interesting that someone placed this marker, but it isn't a find of R 297.

 

edited to add "and 2"

Edited April 15, 2005 by Black Dog Trackers

[+Red_Cedars]

Good points, all. I'm going back to edit my log entry at geocaching.com

 

Thanks for the input.

 

R_C

 

Edited to add:

 

Just for grins, I called the 1-800 number on the disk, looking for more information. It's for "Dig-Safe". The conversation went something like this:

 

D-S: "Dig Safe."

 

R_C: "Hi, you're going to think I'm crazy, but I'm an amateur benchmark hunter. I was looking for a benchmark, SY0110 when I found your marker."

 

D-S: "What's a benchmark?"

 

Let's just say I knew I wasn't going to learn anything, so settled for passing on what little knowledge I could.

 

Edited April 15, 2005 by Red_Cedars

[evenfall]

R_C,

 

1-800-424-5555 is the Washington State phone number for Utility Underground Locating, Call Before You Dig. Oh Yeah. Beings that there is an electrical substation right nearby there, that little monument you found is suuuuuper Poignant. Often the utility companes will come behind the contractors with their own company locator people and set the markers like you found just to protect the public and their investment underground.

 

This station was a pretty good station:

 

SY0110 HORZ ORDER - FIRST

SY0110 VERT ORDER - FIRST CLASS II

 

It was a Bench Mark Station which had also been Horizontal Control Data, Via GPS during the 1990 observation.

 

And:

 

SY0110_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

SY0110_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

SY0110_STAMPING: R 297 1947

 

The Last Survey Crew to play with this station was Evans, as in David Evans and Assoc. I have crossed paths with their guys on many different jobs in the past. Nice guys.

 

I have played with a lot of road widenings... Every thing is surveyed before during and after. Built to plan and as built where not built to plan. When we do this we dig all the utilities up and move them, So that hopefully the utilities wind up along the road and not under it. We Remove all the topsoil as it is not a good material for compacting to structural support strengths. Then bring in appropriate structural fill, the code book for all this is as thick as a brick. The plan has detail for the corner of any vault that was set and what the height of that Vault is at finish grade. They know the flow line elevation of every wet utility pipe in the ground, and so it goes with every other thing. Lots of T's to cross and I's to dot. Every little thing is built to plans that have been detailed to the 100th of a foot.

 

The Monument is not paved over, but the position is if the widening came all the way over to the old planter in the Church Parking lot. This station was along St Hwy 524 (Maltby Rd) and the DOT knew the station was there. They also had to know they were going to lose it. The monument has taken a long ride in the back of a Dump truck. If the topsoil was sold, Pacific Topsoils probably got it, screened the station out and got rid of it too. Or if the dirt was just bad dirt it just went in a pile somewhere. There are a lot of old gravel pits being landfilled with poor soils in the Maltby neck of the woods. A good bit of the Concrete Demolition from the Seattle area goes out there.

 

Here is a little WSDOT Data from their database, along the same stretch of road:

 

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/monument/report.cfm?monumentid=1814 Destroyed by the Same construction that took out SY0110...

 

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/monument/report.cfm?monumentid=6165

 

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/monument/report.cfm?monumentid=1815

 

Those three stations are NOT NGS station Marks and are not in their Database.

 

All that construction work aside, The Datasheet will tell you what to look for as you can see, so feel free to look at the datasheet. This was monumented as a BENCH MARK DISK. So a railroad spike driven in the road is not the station, no matter what. Even 2 of the 3 station recoveries mention the type of monument they found, which concur with the data. I know of a third order Tri Station that is a Railroad Spike driven in the road and the Datasheet says it is too. You see, the object must be the described object in the described location in order to be Valid.

 

The datasheet is available 2 ways. There is one on the geocaching site which is 5 years old, or if you like the NGS site has one which is up to date. These datasheets are full of clues that the basic info on geocaching never gives us. It give us an edge to learn how to read them.

 

There has been no NGS filing to state this station is lost.

 

You can log this as a NOT FOUND on both Geocaching and NGS if you like.

 

Good Luck!

 

Rob

Edited April 16, 2005 by evenfall

[+Red_Cedars]

There is one on the geocaching site which is 5 years old, or if you like the NGS site has one which is up to date. These datasheets are full of clues that the basic info on geocaching never gives us. It give us an edge to learn how to read them.

Where would I go to find the NGS data sheet? Do you have a link available that you could post?

 

Still, this is one thing I really like about benchmark hunting in general and this forum in particular. I can take a "Did not find" and turn it into a "Win" (at least to my own mind) by learning something. Thanks, everyone, for your patience as I procede through the learning curve.

 

R_C

[ArtMan]

Where would I go to find the NGS data sheet?  Do you have a link available that you could post?

You can get the original datasheet here. Note that the latest datasheet for any NGS benchmark can be retrieved with a URL in the format <http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=AA1234>,'>http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=AA1234>, where the last six digits are the PID.

 

In addition to it being more up-to-date than the info contained on the corresponding Geocaching.com benchmark page, it also has some kinds of information that doesn't appear at all in Geocaching. Some of this is highly technical, but other info -- such as specific setting information and the "box score" -- can be very helpful.

 

Alternatively, go to the NGS homepage (http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/), click on the link "Datasheets" just under the top banner, then click on the button labeled "DATASHEETS" and you'll find several ways to access datasheets.

 

I'm navigating you in rather than giving you the direct link because I think it's profitable to become familiar with the assets available on the NGS site. There's a lot of helpful and informative stuff there. Worth browsing, in my view.

 

Regards

-ArtMan-

[evenfall]

Artman,

 

Nice Navigating, and I second the motion! It is well worth knowing ones way around on the NGS site. There is a ton of useful and informative stuff there. It could keep people as busy as they like, just reading away...

 

Kudos!

 

Rob

[kc2ixe]

Or my link page

 

http://www.thegallos.com/pids.htm

[+seventhings]

kc2ixe -

 

Great link set up!!

 

Aside to new benchmark hunters: Two things that experienced benchmark hunters have learned (usually, the hard way)

1. Always bring your datasheets with you when you hunt for benchmarks

2. Always check the NGS (original) datasheet - it provides more current and complete info, and can make all the difference for a successful hunt.

(NOTE: To ensure that you view the most recent version of the NGS datasheet, get the sheet via the NGS site and NOT by clicking on the "view the original datasheet" link on the Geocaching datasheet.)

 

When I hunt, I usually print the Geocaching datasheet and then annotate it with additional data from the NGS datasheet. Sometimes, there is no additional helpful info. Often, however, there is.

 

Second aside: above, ArtMan mentioned the "box score" on the NGS datasheets. Some NGS sheets have a section that provides info on the bearing and distance (in meters) from the station to other stations and/or reference marks in the vicinity. It is an extremely valuable tool for finding reference marks or, if you've found an RM, for finding the station.

 

Will

Edited April 16, 2005 by seventhings

[mloser]

And if you get stuck somewhere but have a web enabled device with you, use this page

 

BM Lookup that my brother created. It returns the NGS datasheet to any browser. I use it with my web enabled cell phone from time to time.

[+Red_Cedars]

Thanks for the info, everybody.

 

Next question. Ever find a witness post and NOT find the station mark? That happened to me today at SY5580. Given that I had a pretty darn good "witness", I figured this would be a prime candidate for probing/digging. You can read about my results (with pictures) at the log site linked above.

 

Edited to add: DOH! I just read the NGS datasheet. Seems the power squadron agrees with me.

 

R_C

Edited April 16, 2005 by Red_Cedars

[mloser]

Oddly enough, YES! Take a look at FE2191 near Memphis. It turned out the witness post had been shifted at some point, because it was leaning a bit. When I moved it I discovered that it was only in the ground about an inch. Someone had either run over it or mowed it, and had "thoughtfully" put it back. I continued to search based only on the description but didn't have the equipment with me to probe for the mark, so I finally quit.

 

I would be suspect of that witness post and remeasure from things you can locate or determine if exist.