Logging Freedom Vs. Ranking Systems

January 16, 2005

In general, this is not a new issue...in fact its been batted around many times before. But...there is one piece that I haven't seen clearly discussed...(at least that I know of...)

Most of us agree that this is a game and one person's logging practices shouldn't affect others. I've seen some cachers log finds when they went out with the cache owner as he/she actually placed the cache. Others have talked about logging their own finds...and someone inevitably replies "its a game, who cares?" In most cases, I agree....but what about when those folks log their numbers on sites like Keenpeople.com...where they are ranked against other cachers in the state?

So the question is..."When it comes to logging finds on ranking systems like Keenpeople.com...does the caching community care about the integrity and legitimacy of the numbers?"

38.2k · January 16, 2005

So the question is..."When it comes to logging finds on ranking systems like Keenpeople.com...does the caching community care about the integrity and legitimacy of the numbers?"

In most areas people know who the cheaters are and take their numbers with a grain of salt.

The only thing I really care about are those who log fake finds when that fake find draws me out and causes me to waste my time in pursuit of a cache that is actually missing.

January 17, 2005

Briansnat, I essentially agree with you...I haven't seen any fake finds out there...but I am sure they exist...and that would certainly have a tangible, direct impact on my time and geocaching experience...

The issue of numbers has been an interesting one for me ever since I entered into this arena last year. I admit that I enjoy the personal challenge of pursuing that next level of finds...and being part of a geocaching organization in my state where I can interact with others definitely keeps that fire burning...but in a positive way. Friendly competition

Having a database like Keenpeople gives us all a way to track how we are doing in comparison with our peers...but its only as good as the data being put into it.

I, for one, do believe that there comes a time where its okay for the caching community to say that honesty really is the best policy.

Finally, I was a little disappointed to see that the Cacher's Code didn't really address the integrity issue when it comes to logging finds...as a military guy, I find that interesting...

22k · January 17, 2005

While I may not agree with their logging rational, if their stats show it here, why wouldn't they want it to show there?

January 17, 2005

Good point BlueDeuce...why expect them to be any different...

I think the main question I have really centers around the impression (that I have at least) that the going position in the caching community (at least in these forums) is "live and let live" when it comes to logging finds and numbers. If the caching community took a stand that said "Honesty and integrity does count...in many ways, including logging finds" then I most likely would not have started this topic. I would be able to use sites like Keenpeople knowing that the stats are fair...and that we all expect, literally demand, others to be honest...

I just think that its okay for us all to say be honest in all you do...including finds...its expected within this community. Normally, I see a lot (not all) of cachers respond with a "live and let live" attitude...

20.7k · January 17, 2005

I think a closer look will show that a great number of cachers do care if someone falsely claims finds.

The basic problem with sites like Keenpeople, however, is that the data is inherently stale.

20.7k · January 17, 2005

I just popped over to Keenpeople and checked the stats. Mine is off by 600 hundred finds because I added my info a year and a half ago and never came back. Since all of the data at keenpeople is stale a little or a lot, and the majority of cachers have not joined, the stats are meaningless.

January 17, 2005

SBell....its great to also get your input. Both you and Brian are regulars who I consider leaders in these forums...

I can see that many folks do care...but what I find interesting is that time and time again, when someone asks a question about logging their own finds, etc.... the seemingly majority of regular posters appear to say otherwise...and few come out and state that honesty is paramount...IMO

January 17, 2005

Great point about the currency of Keenpeople...

The ones I wonder about aren't folks that never log in..its the folks that run in the front door after a day of caching...and proceed to get the "padded" stats in as fast as possible...

In Oklahoma...you can bet that the top 25 or so in the state stay on top of their stats...Keenpeople rankings are a topic of every monthly meeting...

January 17, 2005

Has anyone checked this out:

Rankings for Geocachers

It also has stats for each state and country.

January 17, 2005

Kilted...I have seen those listings before...when I read the info on the site just a few minutes ago, I discovered that the data is based on a sample group of caches that are deemed high profile caches...so if you haven't gone to those caches, you would not be accurately represented in that database. But..it is an interesting listing to see where you stand in comparison to the large geocaching world...

24.7k · January 17, 2005

D-cachers I read your posts and I'm getting the feeling you are touching on a larger concept and that it's just not coming through. That or I'm just misssing it.

I'm a big fan of stats for a bunch of reasons and while there are difficulties with doing true and accurate stats in geocaching they should be as accurate as possible with the data we have to work with. Of course having the data to work with is another issue entirly.

4.7k · January 17, 2005

i don't care how you log your caches. if you want to call them all found, it's up to you.

it's up to me to consider for myself how i view your finds and the two are not necessarily related.

as for ranking sites, i deliberately underreport my cache finds, so good luck getting a truly accurate count whether i report the stats or not.

22k · January 17, 2005

I'm getting the feeling you are touching on a larger concept

I think he did a good job of dismissing the "Can you log your own?" to address "Why should you?"

4.7k · January 17, 2005

whoops.. i forgot to add:

when you speak of "looging creedom vs. ranking systems", i have to say that any way i can screw up a ranking system is fine with me. i prefer not to be ranked at all, so if i'm included against my wishes, i prefer to gum up the works.

go ahead and rank yourself against other people, but not against me. i'm polaying a different game.

January 17, 2005

RK...I appreciate your comment...I'm sure you can appreciate how it is sometimes difficult putting thoughts into the written word so that those interested get the true picture...so here goes...

Over the past 8 months of cruising the forums, I have noticed a general unwillingness in the caching community to stand up and make it clear to all that, even though you have a right to "play your own way"....you go over the line when you do take those inaccurate find numbers and post them on public access ranking databases like Keenpeople.

While doing this topic, I also thought about why this subject area wasn't clearly included in the cacher's code. I should have taken a moment while the code was being drafted and at least submitted my recommendation...

I guess this is one of those "principal" issues...

January 17, 2005

Flask...I think its important to realize I am not alking about my ranking...its nothing to talk about (173 finds). Its about a bigger issue...

Why is it that a community of cachers can't agree that honesty is important? Its as simple as that. Like I said in my last post to RK..this is really about principal...honesty and integrity fall right in line. Its about knowing that, while you can't ensure honesty, the community can make it an expectation. Right now, there are lots of folks out there that state they don't care....and very little is done to make it clear that that is unacceptable. I'm not talking about the right for free speech...I'm talking about nurturing a community that is built on honesty and integrity...

4.7k · January 17, 2005

it isnt really a principal issue, since a significanct number of cachers (admittedly not a majority) do not recognize the legitimacy of those scoring systems and therefore don't give two hoots in a handbasket whether or not they're accurate.

so you may think it "crossing the line" to post falsely on scorekeeping sites. i'm generally scornful of the ranking systems, so it falls out of my area of interest.

it's inappropriate to lie and cheat, but i think you have to agree on the intrinsic value of a scoring system before you can codify the behavior of players.

January 17, 2005

I basically agree with you..."if you don't value something...you probably don't really care"...my question is..

Why doesn't the caching community value honesty in reporting?

Respecting the cache owner's rights, cache integrity, etc...all of these are known expectations. Even referenced in the code. Why isn't reporting honesty a hotter topic...a clear expectation so that when someone asks "Can I log my own event?" there should be a consistent response of "No...that is not fair and right." Instead you hear half "No" and half "who cares"...

38.2k · January 17, 2005

Briansnat, I essentially agree with you...I haven't seen any fake finds out there...but I am sure they exist

Its a lot more prevelant than you realize.

January 17, 2005

You know...I wasn't thinking about those types of logs. You are right...I see those fairly frequently. "Found the magnets...found the lid...etc." I wonder how many of those logs are deleted by the cache owner?

The reality is that stats play a part in geocaching, and we all should set a standard that will give accuracy a chance...and make it clear that the standard is real..and that we aren't going to just say "Its okay

5.6k · January 17, 2005

The feelings I've gotten are

1) we have our own thoughts of how it should be done (right/wrong),

2) that we can't control what others do,

3) most agree "it's not about the numbers",

so, since the numbers aren't really for 'ranking', but for personal info, what someone else does not affect the game. We could all say "hey, no cheating with the numbers!" but would that really change the behavior of some? There's no easy way to verifiy logs (especially where the logbooks are gone) so who becomes the police/watchers/guardians? Blatant cheating/falsehoods are wrong, but those people are really only doing themselves a disservice.

And where do we draw the line? I've been on many group hunts where when one finds the cache, he pulls it out and everyone signs. Is that a 'real' find? Some say no, everyone else should only post a note. Others say, if you signed the log it's a find.

Where you are it may be different, but around here we don't really care about the numbers, yeah, we cheer the milestones, but it's about having fun, getting out there and playing with a high tech toy while looking for cheap toys. Do numbers really matter in that? IMO no, there are no 'winners' or 'losers', just people having fun.

I appreciate what you're trying to do - I don't think you'll find many who disagree - but I don't think you'll be able to do much about the 'cheaters'.

38.2k · January 17, 2005

Blatant cheating/falsehoods are wrong, but those people are really only doing themselves a disservice.

Not really. There have been many instances of a fake find drawing others out to look for caches that were missing. Some people won't go after a cache when they see a few DNFs. Then a smiley pops up and they decide to search for it. If that "found it" is a lie, someone may waste their time looking for something that isn't there. I think it was Lep who once mentioned a fake find causing him to drive 200 miles to find a cache that was missing all along.

It can also cause the cache owner to think his cache is actually still there and delay any maint visit he might have had planned.

Edited January 17, 2005 by briansnat

January 17, 2005

Brian..RK..other regulars...do you think more can be done by the community as a whole to make it clear that when you impact others, its wrong and it won't be tolerated?

Realize as well that lots of folks get hurt by padded numbers...theres lots of ways to look at this...

24.7k · January 17, 2005

It's widely suggested very strongly by the regulars that you police your own caches for invalid finds. Those logs are then deleted.

22k · January 17, 2005

Brian..RK..other regulars...do you think more can be done by the community as a whole to make it clear that when you impact others, its wrong and it won't be tolerated?

Realize as well that lots of folks get hurt by padded numbers...theres lots of ways to look at this...

That's the rub, principles and impacts isn't enough to convince. People don't change unless it affects them.

That said, I have to wonder that these stats have to do with me.

Edit: To note, I stopped updating my keenpeople stats over six months ago.

Edited January 17, 2005 by BlueDeuce

2k · January 17, 2005

While I appreciate that the "cheaters" are frustrating, I quite honestly use the stats as a personal measurement of caches I have found. As a result, other folks numbers don't really mean all that much to me.

As an example, who is a "better" cacher: someone with a bunch of 5/5's or someone with only 1/1's? It's a moot point, because the best cacher is the one that has fun! My stats are low -- I have a 3 year old and an infant en route - I place more than I can hunt because it is something I can plan, enjoy, and sneak into a very busy life.

Although I do not wish to be trite, my response is simply to say that if you worry about others behaviour you will never be short of worries. Enjoy your own personal journey to the triple and quadriple digit stats.

January 17, 2005

To be clear...I am not worrying about the folks that "cheat" the system...I'm not active enough where it would matter.

I simply wondered why there is a prevalent attitude of "you do your thing, I'll do mine" when it comes to logging finds.

The fact is that lots of folks (thousands) in this community do log their finds on databases like Keenpeople. On those lists, its clear that the top 25 or so in each state (the ones I looked at) were staying current. With that said, and assuming that the top dogs are old timers, big players in their respective communities...why isn't there a greater intolerance for cheaters...??

Cacher's Code...would something like honesty and integrity, in regards to documenting finds, find a place there?

1.6k · January 17, 2005

There have been accusations made against a number cachers that they've cheated in one way or another. The only way to really 'know' if they found all the caches they claimed is to go out and read every logbook. So it's left to a matter of trust.

I agree with the idea of the community getting together and making a stand against false logging. Problem is, it's not practical. We, as a group, have no real way of enforcing such a policy. I'm not willing to visit my caches everytime a log is made to ensure it is real.

The only cachers out there who are truely playing fair, are the ones who don't log their finds. If you don't get a smiley, why would you cheat?

Wulf

January 17, 2005

I agree that a policy on this subject is not practical...but most of the "policies" in the Code are theoretically not practical (i.e.enforceable)either. I admit that I wish I had submitted a recommendation to the Code that would have incorporated the issue of honest logging. It very well would have been shot down...but, hey, I would have had my say...

2k · January 17, 2005

I simply wondered why there is a prevalent attitude of "you do your thing, I'll do mine" when it comes to logging finds.

I think it's because the only way to avoid control systems.

If you start trying to concern yourself with other folks activities, you need to introduce strict controls and checks to maintain integrity. Most people don't want to be controlled or waste time controlling others. It just doesn't pay dividends. How would we begin to create a "certified" statistics system? Would it be worth the administrative overhead?

Community controls tend not to work in what is esentially a faceless sport. Unless we attend local events, we often never see other players in the game.

Net result? You do your thing, I'll do mine. I think that is why most folks adopt this attitude.

38.2k · January 17, 2005

The only cachers out there who are truely playing fair, are the ones who don't log their finds.

Unless I'm getting you wrong, you seem to be saying that everyone who logs their finds is a cheater.

Edited January 17, 2005 by briansnat

January 17, 2005

Why should numbers count at all? I mean, I've decided to stop going after Micros because, for the most part, I hate them.

As I see it (and I might be wrong...by all means, feel free to slap me), the numbers aren't the point. It's a game to some, a sport to some, and a hobby to me. I'll go look for (and mostly find) those that I'm interested in. The responsibility rests on the cache-owner, in my opinion.

But, hey, what do I know? I've officially logged less than 50 finds.

24.7k · January 17, 2005

...
The only cachers out there who are truely playing fair, are the ones who don't log their finds. If you don't get a smiley, why would you cheat?

Wulf...

Those people are not giving back at the most basic level which is to say they found the cache in a log. If they don't log online or in the cache log, then they are parasites because if the game only consisted of those types...It wouldn't last long as cache owners getting no feedback from the community would soon quit placing caches.

True they have no need to cheat at claiming finds, but they are not playing fair either.

24.7k · January 17, 2005

Why should numbers count at all? I mean, I've decided to stop going after Micros because, for the most part, I hate them.

As I see it (and I might be wrong...by all means, feel free to slap me), the numbers aren't the point. It's a game to some, a sport to some, and a hobby to me. I'll go look for (and mostly find) those that I'm interested in. The responsibility rests on the cache-owner, in my opinion.

But, hey, what do I know? I've officially logged less than 50 finds.

You are not far off,

For some the numbers count, for others they don't really care but that doesn't stop them from saving a nice cache for their 100th find. Others still take time out of their caching day to berate others who take the time to find lame caches beause of their concern over everyone else padding their numbers...

To me it's funny that some of the biggest and loudest proponents of "It's not about the numbers" are also the biggest and loudest at talking about other peoples numbers. It's to the point where they try to use someones numbers to discredit them on their total finds. Nevermind that in addition to their 700 urban caches they have another 300 finds that involved hikes to match to the whiners 200 caches that involved a hike in the same time...

We all have our own view on what we enjoy in this RASH and Geocaching is a large enough and flexable enough hobby to where we can all enjoy the aspects of geocaching that appeal to us.

That's the long way to agree with you, but still like numbers just the same.

2.7k · January 17, 2005

Can I like my own numbers, for my own reasons, and not have to have others compare me to them? Leave me out of any numbers game at all please. My finds are accurately logged so I know where I have been and to let the cache owner know what is up. Nothing more. I wish I could just hide the total number from the public altogether, and still be able to use the website as my journal.

I find it amusing that other people would cheat at all. What is the point? If I cared about public numbers, there is no way I could do that and look at myself in the mirror. So silly.

January 17, 2005

We all have our own view on what we enjoy in this RASH and Geocaching is a large enough and flexable enough hobby to where we can all enjoy the aspects of geocaching that appeal to us.

RK, I couldn't have said it better myself.

But, again, the numbers don't matter to me...they just aren't the point. If there's an interesting cache out there in my (admittedly modified) "local area", I'll go look for it. What I'm hoping to find, beyond the cache itself, is scenery that I wouldn't have seen otherwise. Call me Hayduke, but I really have been enjoying what I've seen out there. A Micro at 8th and Broadway in downtown Nashville won't do it for me...but an abandoned cemetery (or railroad trestle) outside of town makes me want to go.

January 17, 2005

Most of us agree that this is a game and one person's logging practices shouldn't affect others. I've seen some cachers log finds when they went out with the cache owner as he/she actually placed the cache. Others have talked about logging their own finds...and someone inevitably replies "its a game, who cares?" In most cases, I agree....

So the question is..."When it comes to logging finds on ranking systems like Keenpeople.com...does the caching community care about the integrity and legitimacy of the numbers?"

If people don't care whether the stats tabulated here on geocaching.com or any of the other geocaching-related sites are accurate or legitimate, why would anyone care if people "cross the line" by creating ficticious usernames and/or claiming ficticious finds/hides on sites like "Keenpeople?"

It's a rhetorical question, of course, because no one in a position to do anything about the accuracy or legitimacy of the data (the website operators) has any interest in the accuracy or legitimacy of the data ... none-the-less, and rather amusingly, some of them are so very concerned with not sharing their flawed data, which has led to the creation of more websites featuring more flawed and inaccurate data.

January 17, 2005

As I woke up this morning, I realized that one of the reasons issues like this intrigue me is because our geocaching world is a real paradox...

Most folks seem to make a point of logging smilies...their numbers show up on their profile...waiting for someone else to check it out. That's the reason for profiles right?? For others to see.

Then, most of those same folks say that they only care about their numbers...and not where anyone else is in the rankings.

If thats the case, then why don't they log notes (to give feedback to the cache owner, which I agree is a critical component to sustaining this game) instead of smilies. To keep track of their own numbers, they can use a notebook, Excel, GSAK, etc...

It just doesn't match up...

Look at the listings on Keenpeople...lots of folks do care...

Don't get me wrong...there is such a thing as healthy, fun competition...and I think that is where 99% of us fit...

38.2k · January 17, 2005

As I see it (and I might be wrong...by all means, feel free to slap me), the numbers aren't the point. It's a game to some, a sport to some, and a hobby to me

Everyone says numbers don't matter, then a lot of them go out and claim a find because they found the spot where they are pretty sure the cache was, or they pass up a challenging 4 stage multi cache in a scenic area in favor of half a dozen micros in dog poop parks.

I think part of the reason is that there is a certain amount of "celebrity" that comes with being a high numbers cacher. When a power cacher walks in the door at an event, they are often greeted as a hero of sorts and everyone wants to meet them.

I think this is part what drives people to cheat . If you look in this thread many of the most questionable logs come from some very "prominent" power cachers.

Edited January 17, 2005 by briansnat

January 17, 2005

Brian...you hit the proverbial nail on the head...

When I pulled up the thread you posted, a great example is the cache that went missing for a year (Jar with lid and two nail holes) and people kept logging finds even when all they ended up finding was a couple holes in a piece of wood. A couple dozen cachers did that until it was finally archived.

I'm just thinking that the cache community should make a clear statement that this won't be tolerated...and again, it should be a part of the Cacher's Code...

38.2k · January 17, 2005

'm just thinking that the cache community should make a clear statement that this won't be tolerated..

Now how do you do that? Tar and feather the people? Its up to the owners to police their logs. If they don't there is little anyone can do.

Edited January 17, 2005 by briansnat

3.3k · January 17, 2005

I think part of the reason is that there is a certain amount of "celebrity" that comes with being a high numbers cacher. When a power cacher walks in the door at an event, they are often greeted as a hero of sorts and everyone wants to meet them.

I think this is part what drives people to cheat . If you look in this thread many of the most questionable logs come from some very "prominent" power cachers.

I attended a cache event last night, where number 3 in the world and 13 in the world attended. Both are genuinely nice guys who enjoy caching. I did notice that they were well regarded by all, and everyone wanted to talk to them. While they do have prestige based on ranking, I don't agree with the idea that they are more prone to cheat.

These guys would be foolish to log non-existant caches or cheat in anyway. If even a whiff of cheating was discovered, their integrity would be instantly questioned. I'm not disagreeing that there are cheaters in the game, that is a given.

One thing that I have seen is new cachers or those with very low numbers, automatically assume that powercachers have to cheat in order find more than 50 caches in a day.

January 17, 2005

I agree that the tar and feather approach wouldn't go over so well

Since we all essentially agree that there is nothing that can be done when it comes to enforce ethical behavior...does it make you wonder why the Cacher's Code was developed? (insert devil's advocate stance)

The sun is shining...its freezing outside...but, I think its time to go caching!!

38.2k · January 17, 2005

....While they do have prestige based on ranking, I don't agree with the idea that they are more prone to cheat. ....These guys would be foolish to log non-existant caches or cheat in anyway. If even a whiff of cheating was discovered, their integrity would be instantly questioned. I'm not disagreeing that there are cheaters in the game, that is a given.

That doesn't seem to stop people. People who are shameless enough to cheat are just plain shameless. I'm not saying that the two specific people you met are cheaters, nor am I saying that all power cachers are cheaters.

4.7k · January 18, 2005

i prefer that cache owners delete false found logs. other than that i fail to see how anyone can complain that people playing THIS game here are falsifying their records on some other site.

if i created my own football scoring league reporting site and claimed that i was manchester united would you care?

i'm FOR only logging what you've found as "found". generalizatons about the importance of keenpeople.com stats to cachers in general or even to the top cachers in any given state just don't hold water.

according to keenpeople.com the last time i looked, there were only three cachers in my state, only one of which was current. i know a TRUCKLOAD of cachers here and so far i've only met one who cares one bit about those stats.

i don't know what my ranking would be if i kept stats there because i don't compare my stats to those of others. i don't care enough to go there and see if any cachers around here have signed on or updated since the last time i checked.

IF i subscribed to league play i would expect those in the league to adhere to certain standards. since i am not playing in a league nor am i competing against any other cacher, i do not feel a need to police other people's find counts. if people want an accurate count from me, they'll have to follow me around and check logbooks.

parenthetically, i never falsify FOUND logs but have falsified more than one DNF, and there are a few more that i'm simply not logging one way or the other. i do this partly to annoy those who clamor for more accurate reporting.

i do not allow people to claim false finds on my caches, but if your sockpuppet wants to visit one of my caches and you make a trip to sign your sockpuppet in, your sockpuppet can have a smiley.

i'm going to suggest that if you want to complain about the accuracy of stats at sites like keenpeople.com you go there and demand that they be more vigilant about their own record keeping. it's useless to insist HERE that anything be done HERE to make stats THERE more accurate.

and since powercachers have been brought up, how does one define a powercacher? somebody who had lots of batteries? somebody with more than two finds? somebody who goes out every week whether they find something or not? what's the standard here? it is absolutely unfair to categorize some people as being powercachers without setting a published standard so the rest of us know to what level we should aspire.

5.6k · January 18, 2005

A powercacher is anyone with more finds than you!

Blatant cheating/falsehoods are wrong, but those people are really only doing themselves a disservice.

Not really. There have been many instances of a fake find drawing others out to look for caches that were missing. Some people won't go after a cache when they see a few DNFs. Then a smiley pops up and they decide to search for it. If that "found it" is a lie, someone may waste their time looking for something that isn't there. I think it was Lep who once mentioned a fake find causing him to drive 200 miles to find a cache that was missing all along.

It can also cause the cache owner to think his cache is actually still there and delay any maint visit he might have had planned.

OK, valid point. Though, I think that occurance is pretty low.

As to wasting time - my wife often says geocaching is a waste of time. Not that I agree (and I certainly don't disagree with you, dear ).

January 18, 2005

Thanks for the input on this topic.

I basically got the responses I expected. Numbers, stats, rankings....probably impossible to have a credible system in a community that is so divided on their value or importance.

I'll just keep on caching...time to close it down.

Logging Freedom Vs. Ranking Systems

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