Garmin Etrex Vista Error

[Hermy]

I bought my Etrex Vista on Ebay.com.au from a dealer. I should have read the fine print I know, and it came to me with the American basemap (I'm in Australia)

 

The error I have found is in the location of Adelaide South Australia, there are 2 of them;

 

S 34 55.470, E 138 33.821

 

and

 

S 34 58.828, E 138 30.938.

 

Guess where I live? (Incidentally the Adelaide Post Office is actually located at S 34 55.622 E 138 35.977)

 

So you can see how I might find this error to be not just annoying but impractical to me since I actually live here and have to see it all the time.

 

I did email Garmin but all they want me to do is "buy" another map. I had a look at their warranty terms online re: auctions and I could probably argue that even though it's not the basemap for my region, it's still a manufacturer error and since it causes me a real problem, should be addressed under warranty. Is it worth a shot? Anybody dealt with Garmin warranty before? Their attitude so far seems unsympathetic and want to pass responsibility to the dealer (who didn't enter the 2 wrong locations for Adelaide!).

 

How error prone is their basemap data anyway, anyone familiar with similar stories?

[+Lucanos]

Hi,

 

I haven't dealt with Garmin myself, but I have read in other threads here that they are normally quite good...

 

I don't know whether you could chase this as part of the warranty - the disclaimer you see at the start-up of the unit says that the information it provides is for reference only, and as I would assume the packaging says that it has a basemap of the US pre-loaded it is not really misleading...

 

Your best bet may be to ask them very, very nicely if they could replace the US basemap with the AUS basemap supplied with the AUS model?

 

Have you had anyone with an AUS version check to see whether the same inaccuracy exists?

How much were they going to charge you for the map? (Was it the MapSource product that they were trying to sell you?)

 

Also, for topics specific to Geocaching in Australia I strongly recommend that you check out the Geocaching.com.au Forums

[Neo_Geo]

Making maps is a very labor intensive process and the data is always subject to human error. Are you suggesting that Garmin rewrite their entire US basemap to correct a flaw that only you and maybe 10 other people in the world might notice and might be a problem for two or three of them??? I'm sorry, but I think YOU are the one who is impractical.

 

Do you think an airline should reschedule their entire flight structure simply because they don't have a flight that's convenient for you? Or maybe you think that a beverage company should change their line of products because their product has too many calories? Or maybe you think a certain software giant (Microsoft) should rewrite their operating system because you find their logo impractical to look at.

 

Here's an eye-opener: The world is imperfect and the world is NOT about you!

 

They're not going to repaint the eiffel tower every time someone notices a scratch in the paint.

 

True, the problem you're having is an error that causes you some problems and the above examples I've given are matters of preference, but they are on the order of the same magnitude of how you want things to be done.

 

If you're unhappy with it, sell it back to someone in the US and then buy one with an Australian basemap.

Edited September 3, 2004 by Neo_Geo

[peter]

How error prone is their basemap data anyway, anyone familiar with similar stories?

The "error" you're citing is not at all out-of-line for expected accuracy of the basemap for regions outside of its nominal territory. My eMap with America's basemap shows the same location for Adelaide, but I note that the map gives the "overzoom" warning at all

distance scales of 200 miles or less when showing map regions outside of the American continents. At the 200 mile scale, the difference between the actual position and that plotted on the map is indistinguishable and the "overzoom" is an indication that you should expect inaccuracies if you zoom in any further.

 

For that matter, the Adelaide metropolitan area covers a sizable area and I'd guess the plotted point falls somewhere within it even if it is shown miles away from the city center and maybe even not within the official city borders.

 

And no, I don't see that precisely where your unit plots the point for Adelaide creates a problem for you. Even if precisely plotted, the basemap you have now would be worthless to you. Your real problem is the lack of the correct basemap and preferably the optional street-level map with enough detail to help you navigate.

 

If you want a usable map you need to buy the proper MapSource product for your area, presumably MetroGuide-Australia, and download the maps into your Vista.

[Hermy]

Thanks for the replies guys. appreciate you taking the time.

 

Let me start out by saying that I admit that I should have read the fine print more carefully and seen that it was loaded with the American basemap, no argument at all. I take that on the chin. I'm certainly not saying I've been mislead or tricked.

 

Also I'm a newbie to GPS and still learning much about the relationship with maps, to satelites positioning etc. I realise what seems logical to a layman may not be realistic and that's why I posted here, to get allround opinion.

 

Now, I know the disclaimer says it's reference only but all the advertising and the provided specifications guarantee a 3-5 metre accuracy of the unit. Also, the physical coordiates of Adelaide do not change. I imagine that the basemap simply displays the points of the co ordinates that are held in the database. So if the numbers in the database are correct then when the unit is within 3-5 metres of those numbers, up comes the graphic. Garmin have 2 entries for Adelaide (roughly 8 km apart - 5miles) The closest one is 3.5 km away from where it should be. So Cartography entered 2 points for Adelaide and both are incorrect.

 

Adelaide is roughly 1 square mile, or 2km x 1.6km and the post office is smack in the middle. Those co ords don't fall anywhere within the city boundary.

 

I don't expect to have any form of mapping for Adelaide obviously because I have a different basemap, but to see 2 points both marked ADELAIDE on my screen is a different story.

 

I've loaded a couple a pictures of the GPS screen as my profile photo, so if I've done it right you should be able to see what I'm finding so annoying about the error. You should see both points marked ADELAIDE and waypoint 4 is the real location. As you can see, it clutters the screen and can be confusing.

 

I know mapmaking is a big task. But the points for all major or significant centres are now known, readily available and indeed Garmin have been doing this for a long time. That's why such a basic error is surprising when it was so easy to cross check, they obviously have all the correct data somewhere.

 

I know the basemaps are hardwired and can't be changed and I don't expect Garmin to halt production, recall all units simply because they got 2 numbers wrong. And if it's only 10 people affected by the problem then I would have thought it would be very easy and cheap for customer service to mitigate the problem they caused. But they seem to want to pass the buck.

 

Anyway, at the very least, my experience may help other Aussie auction buyers avoid falling into the same circumstance.

 

I'd still be interested to know if anyone out there has an Australian basemap and also anyone with loaded Maps, what co ordinates do they give for Adelaide? I might have to buy one of these maps now to get rid of the annoying clutter.

 

Thanks in advance.

[+GOT GPS?]

You will have to turn off the basemap from the setup menu in the map page, also you can create some waypoint of cities and other things.

 

Here is a link: MetroGuide of Australia

 

MetroGuide of Australia main page

 

A website that has the MetroGuide CD

[Neo_Geo]

I'm sorry for the unsympathetic tone and negative vibes my previous post may have displayed.

 

Allow me to be more positive this time:

 

The fact that Adelaide South Australia even appears in a GPSr with a North American basemap amazes me. You should be happy that it shows up at all!! The fact that it shows up there TWICE... Frankly, I think that's quite special

 

The idea of putting Adelaide on a North American basemap is to help a weary North American traveler find Adelaide if he needed to. Having seen the photos you posted, I have a feeling that if I navigated to either of the dots on the map, I'd be able to find my way to a nice, big, cold can of Fosters in Adelaide.

 

If you're looking for detailed accuracy for Australia, I'm sure you'll be much happier if you get some MetroGuide® Australia maps loaded into your Vista. You'll be amazed at the detail

 

CLICK HERE to view the MetroGuide of Australia Map Viewer. Keep zooming down to the 800' level!! It's pretty "AUSSOME"!

 

The 3 to 5 meter accuracy you're referring to means accuracy of the coordinates given by the GPSr. In other words, if you've got good reception with a lock on your position, and the thing is showing you coordinates of S 34 55.622 E 138 35.977 - then you're within 3 to 5 meters of those actual coordinates. If you plug the coordinates S 34 55.470, E 138 33.821 into a waypoint, and navigate to that waypoint, you'll be within 3 to 5 meters of that location when the device shows you standing on the dot. That's pretty freakin' amazing technology!

 

They're not guaranteeing that every single little Point of Interest on all of their maps are going to be 100% accurate. If that's what you're expecting from that gadget, then you truly expect way too much - you're waaaaay ahead of your time!

 

I'm going to tell you that even the most up-to-date maps are actually at least a couple of years old! My brother moved into a new house (in the US) over three years ago. His housing development just now shows up in the maps that just came out last month! The maps that I bought a year ago show a Taco Bell restaurant that I used to frequent three years ago, but has been closed for about two years now.

 

The overall technology is not perfect, and I doubt that it ever will be. But if you have the right equipment with the right data, then you can use the technology to find anything you're looking for. So if you've got a mapping GPSr, with proper maps (such as MetroGuide® Australia), and you want to find a particular address, the thing will point you in the right direction and get you where you wanna be.

 

Bear in mind that the coordinates given for a particular address may be off depending on how you look at it. On the MetroGuide maps, the address will appear along the line which indicates the actual street, but the actual building may be located 50 meters from the road. But if you look at the overall data, and see which direction the numbers are going on the map, and watch the numbers on the actual buildings, you're gonna find the building that you're looking for!

 

If you want a North American GPSr to show you the exact location of the post office in Adelaide, Australia with no detailed maps installed, you should turn around and sell the thing right now.

Edited September 3, 2004 by Neo_Geo

[Hermy]

I'm sorry for the unsympathetic tone and negative vibes my previous post may have displayed.

No worries mate, I've been married _ I know how to cop it sweet

 

The fact that Adelaide South Australia even appears in a GPSr with a North American basemap amazes me. You should be happy that it shows up at all!! The fact that it shows up there TWICE... Frankly, I think that's quite special 

I'm as happy as a pygmy with snow skis !!

 

They're not guaranteeing that every single little Point of Interest on all of their maps are going to be 100% accurate.

Granted, but they already do have the correct co ords for Adelaide, I still think it was a quality control issue.

 

The idea of putting Adelaide on a North American basemap is to help a weary North American traveler find Adelaide if he needed to. Having seen the photos you posted, I have a feeling that if I navigated to either of the dots on the map, I'd be able to find my way to a nice, big, cold can of Fosters in Adelaide.

Ah, but one is the bikie (biker) bar and the other is the Crazy Horse.

 

I find the coastline reference potentially useful (as soon as I verify it) so the whole basemap isn't useless. But the 2 big text lines ADELAIDE on my screen is a pain.

 

Whatever happens, I'll still keep the unit. It'll be my learner. But I'll be making sure I'm more careful with my next purchase.

 

Cheers !

[Neo_Geo]

I find the coastline reference potentially useful (as soon as I verify it) so the whole basemap isn't useless. But the 2 big text lines ADELAIDE on my screen is a pain.

Careful with that coastline reference... I took my Legend to the Galapagos islands off the coast of South America. I was thrilled and amazed to see that I was walking on water

 

Then we went on a boat ride, and I'll be danged if that GPSr didn't show our boat crossing over dry land. My wife and I still swear to this day that our boat was always in the water though!

[+Gonzo-YT]

When you get closer to the antipodes, you start running into all these issues with map projections and geographical datum that I don't even pretend to understand. Basically, it makes it harder to translate things into grids, I think.

 

I've had certain maps, using certain projections, be off by many kilometres when located somewhere like the coast of Alaska. That might have been the situation in the Galapagos.

 

For my part, the Garmin Topo Canada stuff is bang-on, at least so far.

 

Regards,

Anthony

[Neo_Geo]

I was using the MapSource WorldMap with the WGS-84 datum

[peter]

Granted, but they already do have the correct co ords for Adelaide, I still think it was a quality control issue.

...

I find the coastline reference potentially useful (as soon as I verify it) so the whole basemap isn't useless. But the 2 big text lines ADELAIDE on my screen is a pain.

I don't think it's a quality control issue at all (except for having two Adelaide's instead of just one). If you check other cities in Australia or elsewhere outside the nominal area of the basemap you'll find similar offsets from the proper city center.

 

The basemap fits into a very small amount of memory and the way they do that is mainly by not having much detail, but also by not having very precise coordinates. Although the coordinates don't look rounded off when expressed in base-10 deg/min, that's probably not how they're stored in the internal binary database of the unit. So the first set of coordinates you listed may well be as close as they can get to the actual location given the number of database bits designated for storing city positions outside of the Americas.

 

It is interesting that there are two points shown. My much older eMap shows only one and it's the one with the less accurate position. My guess is that someone noticed that it was entered wrong but added a new point rather than just moving the old one. If they went to the trouble to try and correct the wrong position, I'd guess they already put the new point as close as possible to the right spot given the technical constraints of the memory allotment in the database.

 

When you get to the coast, you'll see the same kind of inaccuracy, sometimes walking on dry land while the map shows you miles out at sea and othertimes in a boat while the map shows you on land. Again a combination of representing the coastline with a limited number of datapoints and storing the position of each of those points to a limited level of precision (i.e. limited number of bits).

 

It's still a usable map for some things. If you found yourself in a boat far from land it would at least let you steer in the right direction to get you within sight of the coast. And I've found it handy if coordinates are given for some foreign town or location to at least have the rough country borders shown so I have some idea where the place is located. But don't expect the basemap to guide you to the Post Office or even within the official city limits. Getting you close to the metropolitan area is doing pretty good.

 

So I'd suggest you get the proper Australian detailed maps and download them - it will greatly increase the utility of your Vista.

[Mittellegi]

I suspect that the two 'Adelaides' appear on the two different databases loaded. You have the BaseMap, which you're stuck with, AND the Americas Marine POI. Try switching this off and you may get only the one Adelaide from the BaseMap.

 

Map Page, Menu, Setup Map, select the 'i' button, up to the menu, Show None

 

I use the Legend with the Atlantic BaseMap, so can't replicate your issue.

 

The BaseMap is better than no map, just. Mapsource WorldMap is reasonable. However, Metroguide Europe is excellent for roads, a bit iffy on the rivers, and I have used it extensively in the UK, France, Germany and Switzerland.

 

Suggest you get a copy of Metroguide Oz. Loading it erases the Marine POI, which nobody uses (serious boaters will load up BlueChart!) and which will override the BaseMap: you'll only have one Adelaide, and I suspect it will be extremely accurate

 

Check out this: Garmin's Oz

 

BB

Edited September 3, 2004 by bexybear

[+Skypilotdave]

I have Aus basemap and Perth is way off. Dissapointing, but was wondering if there is a fix. Are the locations of major features like the coast and rivers fixed when buying more detailed maps? Or are these features just transposed onto the faulty basemap? If one of the selling points of this units is the basemap then it should be expected that such a feature is reasonably accurate i.e. to better than +- 1km as is the case with my unit. On the whole the unit works absolutely perfectly as far as geocaching goes but I really do think Garmin should correct some of the gross basemap errors especially when they are occurring in capital cities. Thats my two cents worth anyway!