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Captain Morgan

"subscriber-only" - Caches

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I made the same decision that many cachers have already done:

 

From now on, FTF on all my caches will be reserved for paying supporters of geocaching.com only, i.e. all my forthcoming caches will be "Subscriber-Only" - caches at first. Once the cache has been found and logged, they will become viewable by all.

 

Cheers, Captain Morgan

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One of our latest caches are a "members only" and that means that only paying GC members can see the cache page and log the cache in the cache page.

 

We are aware of this might start some kind of reactions, but the idea is to give something extra back to all the geocachers who help GC out by paying the $30 every year... There is a couple of hundred other caches nearby for the rest :blink:

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i.e. all my forthcoming caches will be "Subscriber-Only" - caches at first.  Once the cache has been found and logged, they will become viewable by all.

This is an excellent idea, since it increases the first-found chances among the premium subscribers. I'd like to see this happening also to the new Capital city area caches around here.

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Well well well..

Don't get me wrong as I have nothing against this but I still haven't understood what I can gain if I pay the 30 bucks. I have read the gc.com page about premium membership but it doesn't really help. What the heck is a pocket query for starters :blink:? There is an explanation but I don't really get it.

 

And I don't have any of the fancy equipment mentioned on that page (no PDA's, not even a cable to connect my GPS to a computer (which I by the way don't even have :D).

 

I do understand that I could pay it just to sponsor gc :mad:. But I really would like to know what the advantages are. Thanks.

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I paid my subscription mainly because I wanted to support this site. The rest is only a bonus. :blink:

 

I don't have PDA or any fancy stuff either, except for the cable, with which I can transfer waypoints to and from my GPSr faster than just typing them in.

 

Pocket Queries are handy when you want to download many waypoints at once. For example, if you know you're going to, say, Austria for couple of weeks, you can download all Austrian caches to a single file which will be emailed to you. You can also leave out or count in certain cache types, caches placed in certain time period, caches of certain size etc. It's pretty neat, but I use it quite seldom, actually. Of course, if you want to transfer you PQ results to your GPSr, you need a cable.

 

When you're a subscribed member, you also have unlimited watch list, and you get a 'title' of Premium Member on your profile page and a red plus sign before your name in the name list in forums.

 

That's about it. There's not much to brag about when you're a paying member, but it means that you're supporting the good work people have done to make and maintain this site. Of course, the administration might sometimes add some extra features to premium members, but the basic gameplay will always stay free (this is said many times by the administration).

 

One drawback in becoming a member is that there are no good ways for people outside the US to pay their subscription fees. I hate PayPal, and won't ever use it again, since I had quite a lot of problems with it. International money order is also possible, but it costs way too much to use those (and checks are obsolete means of payment anyway :D ). Gc.com has promised they will accept credit cards directly 'in the future', but haven't defined it any better. I sure hope it'll be soon, since my membership expiration day is closing fast...

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Except supporting GC are there mainly just the PQs you will recieve as a paying member. You get some extra things in the forums also, but I haven't noticed it...

 

Pocket Queries are:

 

Let's say you want a list of the 10 multicaches in Denmark closests to Copenhagen that you haven't found and you don't own and has a travel bug inside! No problemo, you just make a PQ with that selection. You tell that you want it on mondays, wednesdays and sundays.

 

Now you are going on a business trip to London, you want to know about all caches in the London area. Now you make a second PQ with the following option: The closests 500 caches of all types from a coordinate in London that you haven't found or placed, and they shall be active.

 

You perhaps want to have a list of all the caches you have found? No problem, make a third list of it..

 

And so on..

 

You can have up to 20 lists and receive up to 5 per day. You can therefor choose to get PQ1 on certain days, PQ2 on other days, PQ3 on all days and so on...

 

You will receive two kinds of datafiles by email. The first file contains the data in either .LOC or .GPX (you can choose that). Use these for sending them to your GPS via datacable. Or if you have a map-program like MapSource, then can you see where all the caches are in for example your area.

 

You will also receive (if you choose it) a second datafile, in eBook format, that can be used in handheld computers like Ipaq, Palm and so on. Of course can you find the program for use on your computer. What you get in this datafile are a list of all the caches you have choosed to receive.

First is all list of all caches.

Then is there detailed information about all caches (basicly the same information on every cache page (except photos). Then after all the caches are a list of all the encrypted hints - but here they are decrypted.

 

So if you have a small handheld computer like a Palm Vx (like we do) can you bring it with you and look up information about caches, you will also read the 5 (i think it is 5) latests log from each cache.

 

But if you don't have a PDA (handheld computer), don't have a GPS with a datacable or a map-program, and you don't want to support GC with $30, then don't pay. But it is not so much money, if you look what it costs to do some geocaching: buying a GPS, fuel to your car, food, boots, clothes, batteries, flashlight, internetaccess and so on... And by paying these $30/year do you also support GC.

 

There is (right now) 3 Members-Only caches in Sweden. This means that only paying members of GC can view and log these caches. Of course can you find it together with a paying member (who retreived the coordinates for you) and you can of course write in the logbook. But you can't log it on internet.

 

I can only tell the reason why our (the latests MO-cache in Sweden) are a MO-cache. We want to give something extra to all the geocachers who financely support GC. In Göteborg were our cache is hidden are there more than 400 caches nearby, so one MO is nothing. But this cache is way different and very challenging, and they get NO information at all from the beginning. It is up to each cacher who finds it, if they want to give some clues to the rest of the cachers who will go hunting for it also. So this means that it is a challenging cache without any description, hints or clues. Just coordinates. Okay, one cacher has found it and he gave a clue. So now it is (perhaps) a little bit easier, but still challenging. When perhaps 50 MO-cachers has found it and contributed with clues, will we change it to an "open" cache for everybody since it will not be that challenging anymore.

 

But still, we don't wish that geocaching will be all about making exclusive caches only for paying members, but a few in a country is nothing to care about...

In Sweden are there over 2000 caches now, so if 3 caches are exclusive for paying members only - there is still over 2000 caches for the "rest" to go hunting for....

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One drawback in becoming a member is that there are no good ways for people outside the US to pay their subscription fees. I hate PayPal, and won't ever use it again, since I had quite a lot of problems with it. International money order is also possible, but it costs way too much to use those (and checks are obsolete means of payment anyway :blink: ). Gc.com has promised they will accept credit cards directly 'in the future', but haven't defined it any better. I sure hope it'll be soon, since my membership expiration day is closing fast...

I did it a totally different way, I mailed them and asked if it was possible to mail them $30 in an envelope. I had two $10 and two $5 at my home, and why go to the bank and change them to Swedish currancy, and then pay with my creditcard for something in $?? They told me that it was okay, but that I did it on my own risk. After one week or so did I receive a mail from them that I was a paying member...

 

BTW, I don't understand why it can't be easier to exchange money around the world, now when the most part of the world are computerized, including the banks.

More than 80% of the Sweds are paying their bills thru "Internet bank offices": You log on to your bank thru the internet, and administrate your own bank account, tells the computer to send SEK505 to account 23478923482-12 and it's done.

Why can't I do the same to a bank in the US, and the money gets there in a split second??

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I did it a totally different way, I mailed them and asked if it was possible to mail them $30 in an envelope. I had two $10 and two $5 at my home, and why go to the bank and change them to Swedish currancy, and then pay with my creditcard for something in $?? They told me that it was okay, but that I did it on my own risk. After one week or so did I receive a mail from them that I was a paying member...
I actually asked if I can do that too (to pay with $$ cash) when I was complaining about the trouble with PayPal, but the reply I got didn't answer that question, so I ended up using my wife's credit card via PayPal (which had it's difficulties too). But that was the last time I used PainPal.
BTW, I don't understand why it can't be easier to exchange money around the world, now when the most part of the world are computerized, including the banks.

More than 80% of the Sweds are paying their bills thru "Internet bank offices": You log on to your bank thru the internet, and administrate your own bank account, tells the computer to send SEK505 to account 23478923482-12 and it's done.

Why can't I do the same to a bank in the US, and the money gets there in a split second??

I agree. I pay most of my bills with the e-services of my bank account. I just needed to pay a small amount of money to a bank account in Thailand, but since the fee is too big, I just carry cash with me when I leave (five days and counting! :blink: ).

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You log on to your bank thru the internet, and administrate your own bank account, tells the computer to send SEK505 to account 23478923482-12 and it's done.

Why can't I do the same to a bank in the US, and the money gets there in a split second??

Hi, I do not why but,

I am affraid it is not so easy to pay your bills to USA !!

They are still paying with checks there, far behind Europe. I have met this several times before with some fishing gear I tried to order.

 

Where did you pick up the account number, Stetson-Harrison method ??

NORDEA seems not to know it !! GC does not give any account nbr !!

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You log on to your bank thru the internet, and administrate your own bank account, tells the computer to send SEK505 to account 23478923482-12 and it's done.

Why can't I do the same to a bank in the US, and the money gets there in a split second??

Hi, I do not why but,

I am affraid it is not so easy to pay your bills to USA !!

They are still paying with checks there, far behind Europe. I have met this several times before with some fishing gear I tried to order.

 

Where did you pick up the account number, Stetson-Harrison method ??

NORDEA seems not to know it !! GC does not give any account nbr !!

Just for the record, you quoted hedberg there, not me. :blink:

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And I don't have any of the fancy equipment mentioned on that page (no PDA's, not even a cable to connect my GPS to a computer).

By the way, uou can buy GPS cables in Finland too. I don't know about the prices (see for yourself) and the qualityof the work, but many people have recommended that place. I have nothing to do with the guy or the company, I haven't even bought anything there ever, so I'm not advertising here. Just mentioning a possible place to purchase a data cable.

Edited by Divine

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I am so sorry, pls forgive me, I do admit and I see I need some more practising with this Forum. It behaves a bit different than what I am used to.

I hope the msg will go through !!??

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I just needed to pay a small amount of money to a bank account in Thailand, but since the fee is too big, I just carry cash with me when I leave (five days and counting! :mad: ).

Doesn't the hookers in Thailand accept creditcards? :D:bad::blink:

 

JUST A JOKE!

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Doesn't the hookers in Thailand accept creditcards? :D :D :lol:

 

JUST A JOKE!

I wouldn't know, I have never had to pay for that kind of activity. :D

 

In order to keep this topic on the geocaching rail: If someone wants a TB to travel to Thailand, bring it to Tampere-Pirkkala Airport Hitchhiker Hotel before Sunday evening.

 

Edit: typo

Edited by Divine

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Hmmm, if I attach a TB dog tag around my neck, will you bring me to Thailand...? :lol:

 

I have a loooooot of bugs here.. The bugrace starts on saturday and I have over 20 bugs here...

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I think the idea is kind of braindead. Probably you will be hiding subscriber-only caches next? :)

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I think the idea is kind of braindead. Probably you will be hiding subscriber-only caches next? :lol:

Who where you replying to and what?

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I think the idea is kind of braindead. Probably you will be hiding subscriber-only caches next? :)

Who where you replying to and what?

I so much hate this poor user interface :(

 

I was replying to the original post by Captain Morgan.

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Once the cache has been found and logged, they will become viewable by all.

I might do that sometimes too.

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I think the idea is kind of braindead. Probably you will be hiding subscriber-only caches next? :D

Who knows... well probably not yet, but possibly then when here's over 1000 caches in Finland. Like Hedberg said, it really does not matter if there's 1 subcriber-only cache for supporting geocachers, and 999 caches for rest of you.

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Divine, you might end up meeting Cyberjunkie in Thailand, he's going to Bangkok....

 

:unsure:

 

edit: test

Edited by hedberg

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Divine, you might end up meeting Cyberjunkie in Thailand, he's going to Bangkok....

Wow, the Kung of Swedish Cache Hiders! :unsure: Maybe I'll find hime there indeed. On the other hand, it's easy to hide oneself in a city like Bangkok. B) I'll be there from Monday to Friday.

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On the other hand, it's easy to hide oneself in a city like Bangkok.

Are you sure? A Finn with two horns on his head, in Asia, and you think no-one will notice you?!? :unsure:

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On the other hand, it's easy to hide oneself in a city like Bangkok.

Are you sure? A Finn with two horns on his head, in Asia, and you think no-one will notice you?!? :(

Hehe, I meant it would be easy for CJ to hide from me. ;)

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A tip: If you will suddenly met Cyberjunkie at a Hongkok cache, go a buy a lottery ticket! What are the chances of that happening - the people from Nordic region that never have met each other ends up at the same cache in a different part of the world?

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But doesn't that mean that divine has already used all his luck, if that happens? :)

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I hate PayPal, and won't ever use it again, since I had quite a lot of problems with it.

Today I decided to become a premium member too, and payed through PayPal. At least now it seemed to work without problems and I had my premium status in less than a minute. Perhaps they've developed since.

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Pääsitkö ketunneninesi jo perille siitä mitä tuo $30 kaikenkaikkiaan €issa teki PalPayn laskuopin mukaan ?? Tämä on yleisemminkin kiinnostava asia ??

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Pääsitkö ketunneninesi jo perille siitä mitä tuo $30 kaikenkaikkiaan €issa teki PalPayn laskuopin mukaan ?? Tämä on yleisemminkin kiinnostava asia ??

Jupilli asked how much the PayPal transaction for 30 dollars totalled in euros.

This was 24.51 EUR.

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It is a VERY good rate for USD (1,2240) when the official selling rate was 1,2365 ( Nordea 24th of Feb) !! If that includes all, PayPal seems to be very acceptable way of paying to US, which btw has been a pain in the a... Could you Kettu pls let us know if your Credit Card bill will show up as expeceted or is there anything extra ?? I suspect that banks in Finland will be jeaulous..

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Could you Kettu pls let us know if your Credit Card bill will show up as expeceted or is there anything extra  ??  I suspect that banks in Finland will be jeaulous..

There cannot be anything extra, since Paypal charges credit card company in euros - not dollars. This allowes Paypal choose their own conversion rate. Even if PP charged in USD, it would be the credit card company who converts the amount into euros using the rate they find appropriate. Banks have nothing to say to it because the part of money transaction Finnish bank sees is in euros only.

 

Despite the good conversion rate I share Divine's mistrust to Paypal. Their website makes me doubt that they store credit card numbers and may sell e-mail addresses for advertising purposes :unsure: . I don't know for sure, but I have cancelled the credit card I used to pay my membership :).

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Mikkozzz.., I agree to many things you are saying, however knowing how difficult the money traffic to US has been, I hope we can collect all the experiencies we have and that is why I asked Kettu to 'pls let us know', and lear about it. Also I assume that some days have passed since what problems Divine met, and on these days also PAYPAL should advance and develope their operations. At least I would like to see that happen. I did slight research in the web today and could not find anything negative against PayPal. Have you found something, fresh I mean ??

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I have used PayPal for two years now, paid about 5 payments via them, and I have had no big problems with them - in fact I'm very satisfied with them. The only problem I had was my own cause - I forgot my password and after that it was a bit difficult to convince them that I am who I claim to be to get a new password. I had to fax them several personal documents before they gave me a new password. On the other hand, that's only a good thing, I'm now sure that nobody can not get my password just by pretending to be me.

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Their website makes me doubt that they store credit card numbers and may sell e-mail addresses for advertising purposes

 

This membership thing was the second purchase I did via PayPal and at least when the first one was concerned, nothing more appreared on the credit card bill than the agreed sum.

 

However, I was also a bit suspicious to see, that the credit card info stays there and the further payments can be done with the password only.

I deleted the card info from my personal page there, but I hope it won't be saved then somewhere else after that.

 

On the other hand, as I've understood PayPal is a very widely used system, and thus I'd assume that the possible scams would have gained some publicity already.

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I think the idea is kind of braindead.

I understand rvk now quite well, especially having just received red error messsages without doing any error myself.

 

The system developers should improve the logic of the GC cache list display by hiding the Members-only caches totally out of view of the regular poor people. Let's compare the premium membership feature with the business class air travelling; there are specific lounges available for the class-related services and the premium travellers are not drinking their free whiskey in the ordinary airport cafeterias. I prefer low profile in my life and simply get annoyed when seeing people waving banderoles with text "Look at us, we belong to the better folk".

 

I understand very well that running this exellent GC service needs money, but I have, however, reasons not to pay premium member fee now (but it may, of course, happen later on). One significant reason is described above.

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I have recommended this site to many gps enthusiasts as a great and free hobby, but these new "Subscriber only" caches are making my task more difficult.

 

Also I think that the psychology of "Subscriber only" caches is deeply flawed.

Basically they mean: "Do what I want you to do (pay the fee), and I am going to reward you". Doesn't it look like behavioristic manipulation? It doesn't work, at least not for me.

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Howabout refreshing what is the basic question and answer about this item :

 

Are you going to charge us to go Geocaching?

 

Never! The traditional Geocaching game will always be free. Subscriptions will be for new enhancements and new games added to Groundspeak. It takes development time and resources ($$) in order to make these ideas come to life. Not to mention the continuing hardware upgrades to keep the site responsive to your visits.

 

You can read the original here .

 

Are the subscriber only caches included in 'traditional Geocaching' or are some of those representing something else ?? Better ?? Or is this a 'new game added to Groundspeak' ?? I agree that those should be made unvisible to non-subscribers.

 

I might have been quite willing to pay the money, but this kind of a behaviour which tries to put us in different classes, make me think twice. I do not want to buy my classification with money only !

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Ho hum...

 

First of all, let's not forget this is just a little game we're all playing and the sum we're talking is 30 USD a year. It's not like a matter of life or death, or something only the richest of us can afford.

 

I find talking about braindead ideas and non-members being regular poor people quite classifying in themselves.

 

Coincidentally, having just returned from an exhausting trip of 1½ days including 4 flights between 4 countries (3 different airlines), heavily detoured from the original itinerary, I can say only that I didn't see those people traveling on the business/first class (I was travelling low profile on economy) flagging visibly about their platinum memberships or free lounge whiskeys. Sure, I walked thru the business class aisles couple of times and saw that thy indeed have more leg room than 'us regular poor people', but their seats had probably cost at least 3 times the sum of my seat, so I guess they can sip their whiskey quite peacefully without me getting annoyed. At airports I didn't even see them, obviously, because they probably spent their time in their charter lounge. At any point I didn't get an impression that they tried to emphasize that they would be somehow better people than the rest of us passengers. Maybe the banners could also be in the eye of beholder? :)

 

Continuing comparing this to geocaching I have two questions: 1) Are the benefits of Gc.com premium membership really comparable with those of premium airline company customers? 2) Are the Gc.com premium members really flagging their betterness in such a disturbing way?

 

These questions are not pointed to anyone specific, and they're mostly rhetoric, so maybe just thinking about them is enough.

 

Granted, having members and premium members will surely create different 'classes' of geocachers. Premiums have some life-easening features that the others don't. The basic gameplay still remains the same. Everyone still has a possibility to find cache coordinates on this site and go find the cache. PMs have Members Only Caches (MOCs) only if some premium member has hidden any. If you don't want to become a premium member, don't pay. If you don't want to go search caches that need scuba training and equipment, don't go for them. If you don't like locationless caches, don't search them.

 

Matti, this hobby is still free. Having talked to you, and knowing something about your rhetorical skills on that basis, I'm sure you can still recommend this hobby to people without making them instant cash-cows for Gc.com. :) Oh, and, talking about behavioristic manipulation: Making me calculating many many nightly hours of coordinates and then crawling in a very narrow deep underground muddy hole after a plasitc box. What else is that than behavioristic manipulation? "Do what I want you to do (go to these coordinates) and I am going to reward you." :D :D

 

C'mon people. AFAIK only one PM has made MOCs in Finland, and he's promised to change them to traditional after the first find. Where's the big problem? :D

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Okay, the purchasing of a GPS unit is often not cheap, but you can find them very cheap if you want an used one. And all you can require of the GPS is that you can enter the coordinates and it shows you the direction and distance. That's it.

 

But of course can you purchase more and more exclusive 'machines' with map-function or like the new Garmin GPSMAP60C/CS that has special Geocachingfunctions.

 

You don't need to have a handheld computer (PDA) or laptop with you.

 

This is a sport you can use in a very different ways, from just using a very simple GPS up to using a very exclusive (read: expensive) GPS & PDA together.

 

If you compare that with other sports, let's say GOLF, where you can't play it with just one club and without the golfbag. It is required that you have at least a couple of different clubs, a golfbag, and much other things... You must also be a member of a golf course and pay A LOT of money for it every year, and still you must pay every time you feel like playing the game.

 

Okay, now someone are gonna say "Yeah, but what about the fuelcost?". Then my reply will be "You don't have to use/own a car to do some geocaching!". There is a lot of geocachers that are running, walking, bicycling and so on to all caches!

 

And also, this is a sport where you don't compete with others, you can do it whenever you want, do it in the middle of night, or in the middle of january, or in the middle of the forrest. You can do it wherever in the world, and all you have to bring is a small GPS unit, if you once again compare it with bringing a full set of golfclubs every time you travel!

 

$30 can be a lot of money if you are like a student or are short of money, but still, $30 is not too much. The biggest reason is that you support GC.com so it can stay alive. I read just a couple of weeks ago about GC had to buy extra bandwidth and is costed like $700 extra per month! Those amounts of money must come from somewhere, also new servers, software and professional help to improve the speed of the service. It's not cheap to run a site like this, and if $30 can help them, wow! That's cheap for the users. If you compare with the cost of buying computerrelated stuff, or software, is $30 nothing at all! The most shareware are more expensive than that...

 

I can't really see the reason of this discussion really, because how many caches are "members only"/"Subscriber only"? In Sweden: 3. And how many caches are there in Sweden totally? 2068... (March 2nd 2004, 5 in the morning).

 

So... If you wanna do some geocaching in Sweden and aren't a paying member, you will still have 2065 caches (right now) to do... And hey! I think you will survive without the three you can't find...

 

But, if we were talking about a country "poor on caches", like Island or Egypt where there is about 12 caches in each country, or perhaps other countries with even less caches, then should even I be upset if someone went to these countries and placed let's say 10 new caches and made them just MO/SO. But in a country with a lot of public caches, 3, 10 or 50 doesn't make a difference....

 

The way Captain Morgan has said he will do, is not so common and perhaps not to popular either. But I can of course understand it... He wants to premiere the users who supports GC financally... That's fine with me, but what if he decides to place 50 caches under those conditions, can't it 'backfire' then? If it gets to many MO/SO in Finland at the same time?

 

We will most probably hide our next cache as a MO/SO. It's our 50th hidden cache celebration, and will be something special. The mainreasons for doing that, will be:

 

1) the caches (yes, it's a multicache) are hidden on very special places where you can be spotted easily if you are doing wrong!

 

2) because the public places (see 1) will we keep noncachers surfing in to the site away from these caches...

 

3) We wants to do something really special for the premium members...

 

4) After a while when a number of premium members has found it, will we perhaps make it public for anyone...

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Hi all!

 

Divine and Hedberg said it all so well, so I don't have to add much to this conversation. Few comments anyway:

I'm not the only one who has made MOC's in Finland, Solarflare made one too. And we both will turn our MOC's to normal caches soon anyway, so what's the big problem?

 

At the moment 30 USD = 24 EUR. Is it really too much? Geocaching expands like a supernova, number of users and caches rises every second. Think what it means to all of us. We will have more caches to find and more geocaching friends to chat etc. That's nice. But on the other hand it will slow down the server of www.geocaching.com, so Groundspeak needs all the time more memory and disk space in the server as well as more bandwith. And that costs a lot of money. So, if I can help them a little with my 24 euros, to keep my hobby alive, I'm just happy.

 

And I find talking about braindead ideas a bit insulting. Also talking about non-members being regular poor people is quite misleading. I don't feel that I belong to some rich elite, but just the opposite, living in a rented flat with two kids and unemployed wife.

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Matti, this hobby is still free. Having talked to you, and knowing something about your rhetorical skills on that basis, I'm sure you can still recommend this hobby to people without making them instant cash-cows for Gc.com. B) Oh, and, talking about behavioristic manipulation: Making me calculating many many nightly hours of coordinates and then crawling in a very narrow deep underground muddy hole after a plasitc box. What else is that than behavioristic manipulation? "Do what I want you to do (go to these coordinates) and I am going to reward you." B) B)

I think you were the only one who actually commented my text. And it seems that you understood it quite well. :rolleyes:

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There is no such thing as a free lunch, lucky for all of us the geocaching support is expenced by volunteers.

I understand the principles why the SO caches are made and as far as they are eventually opened to public (at least the caches in my home country) I don't mind.

The major problem is planning a new cache: you can never be certain if it is going to be too close to a "concealed" cache.

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... I find talking about braindead ideas and non-members being regular poor people quite classifying in themselves.

 

... I didn't see those people traveling on the business/first class (I was travelling low profile on economy) flagging visibly...

 

Divine, maybe I expressed my meaning unclearly, maybe you were tired and upset after your long travelling. Anyway, you understood me totally wrong. I was trying to use the business class as an example of good and positive way handle the premium customers. And - I have personal experiences in the business class travelling also in transcontinental flights (paid by my employer or using bonus points), so I think I know what I was writing about.

 

If you read my message again you see that I was requesting separate room for the premium members in also this GC environment. And I used some provocative expressions intentionally just to raise discussion about the features which I consider problems which may divert many potential geocachers to other hobbies. My word "poor" did not refer only money, it is also "parka" in Finnish.

 

*********

 

Quote from Captain Morgan: so what's the big problem?

 

Olli, I saw your virtual banner last weekend very clearly in my eyes when I was looking what's new in the Finnish geocaching. I usually start with the exellent Cyberjunkies' page "Most Recent Geocaches for Finland" and as a result of some first clicks on the links I got equal number of error messages. That activated me to start this discussion.

 

In the computer environment the red color and word "Error" in big font mean typically some fatal problems requiring immediate attention. I am sure that I did nothing wrong or illegal, I only clicked a link containing your pseudonym. I had no reason to suppose and no means to know that these pages were not allowed for me. Seriously speaking the user interface is constructed against good ergonomic standards when allowing the premium members to indirectly cause pointless error messages to appear on the screen.

 

That page with red text is, however, obviously intended as an advertisement of the premium membership. And easiest way for me to avoid non-informative and unwanted GC ads seemed to be last sunday to avoid clicking the links containing your pseudonyme! I suppose it was not your goal...

 

********

 

Quote from Hedberg: In Sweden are there over 2000 caches now, so if 3 caches are exclusive for paying members only - there is still over 2000 caches for the "rest" to go hunting for....

 

Last Sunday night I found in the first Finnish list page 4 (four) PM caches of the 20.

 

Then I checked the latest caches in Sweden, England and Germany. No PM caches found on the first pages from any of those countries. Make your conclusions about that.

 

********

 

Knowing my bad but complicated English language it may be worth compiling a short summary of the many words above:

 

- In my opinion anyone may buy as much services of any kind as he/she can afford. But enjoying those services should not give right to cause harm the others.

 

- I fully agree that GC service needs supporting money.

 

- The amount of dollars for the annual membership is not the point of this discussion at all.

 

- However, please hide the forbidden areas from the normal views. Technically it should not be difficult task.

 

- If the aggressive advertisement becomes unavoidable part of the GC, please don't call it "free" service any more. In the software terminology there is clear difference between freeware and adware - and of course those differ from purchased versions.

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Knowing my bad but complicated English language it may be worth compiling a short summary of the many words above:

 

- In my opinion anyone may buy as much services of any kind as he/she can afford. But enjoying those services should not give right to cause harm the others.

 

- I fully agree that GC service needs supporting money.

 

- The amount of dollars for the annual membership is not the point of this discussion at all.

 

- However, please hide the forbidden areas from the normal views. Technically it should not be difficult task.

 

- If the aggressive advertisement becomes unavoidable part of the GC, please don't call it "free" service any more. In the software terminology there is clear difference between freeware and adware - and of course those differ from purchased versions.

This time I think Martti made his points very clear and I completely agree with him.

I assume that free means free and a paid membership is not free. If you pay without getting any advantage, that is your own decision.

 

However I do understand the problems coming up. I am affraid we all have seen the problems the site has experienced lately, which problems are propably generated by the inceased server workload. To satisfy the growing need for resources, bying more with more money may be the only help.

 

And pls all try to understand that when the workload meets some unknown limit, very often the affect will not only be longer response time, it will be some error message and NO ANSWER AT ALL. This is how computer systems unfortunately still behave !!!

Edited by jupilli

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Divine, maybe I expressed my meaning unclearly, maybe you were tired and upset after your long travelling. Anyway, you understood me totally wrong.

Yes, you're right, I totally missed your point, and you're also right about that I was very tired of all the traveling, which probably affected my judgement too. However, upset I wasn't a least bit: my vacation was very succesfull in every way, and I did the flight detour voluntarily, since the airline offered me a fat monetary compensation. :lol:

 

Anyway, like Jupilli said, you made yourself very clear this time - even for me, who made myself fool :lol: - so please accept my apologies of misinterpreting your post.

 

I still beg to differ on the Members Only Cache (MOC) visibility to all the users. In my opinion, it's fully justified for a service provider to show all the service users what they have to offer. That way, by telling all the site users about all the caches (including MOCs too) isn't wrong in any way. It's just a service provider's way to tell that hey look, we have this stuff too, if you're interested! There's no way anyone has to buy a premium membership. However, the site giving error messages by clicking on the MOC links IS wrong indeed, and it should be fixed. I strongly agree with that.

Edited by Divine

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However, the site giving error messages by clicking on the MOC links IS wrong indeed, and it should be fixed. I strongly agree with that.

Do we really know that the ERROR MESSAGES were not the ones caused by the problems GC.com had with the servers for at least for two weeks ?? There was quite alot of confusion couple of days ago before the pb was fixed (how, I am not sure ??), anyway, I have not seen the ERROR MSG pb on couple of days. Maybe it works now like they want to put it, 'as designed' which term sounds like an explanation only to me.

If I understand corret, the cache in question (GCHRW0) is now open for all when it has been logged already. Or am I missing something again??

I mean, we are unable to test today !! ??

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Do we really know that the ERROR MESSAGES were not the ones caused by the problems GC.com had with the servers for at least for two weeks ??

Actually, I was wondering the same. Because of my recent trip, I never witnessed any error myself, but I read about them in many different occasions in these forums. If the various recent errors have been because the bandwidth or disk space has temporarily run out, I find the complaints about the members only caches quite ironical. The more there are paying members the better prerequisites the site has for trouble-free performance. :lol:

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If the various recent errors have been because the bandwidth or disk space has temporarily run out, ........

If I understand correctly, this time the pb was fixed by changing some programming logic in cache log calculation operations which change definitely decreased the resource consumption. What this means I think, is that the actual bug causing the malfunction is still hiding somewhere in the sw and is only waiting there to come up again when the workload again gets high enough (or not as we all hope). To locate the exact bug, one needs especially good luck. Unfortunately, this is quite a common behaviour, more workload does not only increase the response time but brings up an error which prevents the service completely. Servers need continuous tuning, tuning, tuning.......

So, adding more HW on this case might have helped also, but that is an endless road to go and results to a very poor usage of the resources available. Better way would be tuning work, which in most cases also means more expencies. I agree !!

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Going back to the PAYPAL service, I asked Diners if they have any opinion, and suprise suprise, just got an answer:

 

Kokemuksemme PayPal-palvelun käyttämisestä ovat olleet positiivisia.

Mitään ongelmia ei ole tietoomme tullut.

 

En näe mitään syytä välttää PayPal-palvelun käyttämistä.

 

Ystävällisin terveisin

 

DINERS CLUB FINLAND OY

 

I think they would be quite willing to tell if they had any good arguments to use Diners instead of PayPal !!

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Quote from Captain Morgan: so what's the big problem?

 

Olli, I saw your virtual banner last weekend very clearly in my eyes when I was looking what's new in the Finnish geocaching. I usually start with the exellent Cyberjunkies' page "Most Recent Geocaches for Finland" and as a result of some first clicks on the links I got equal number of error messages. That activated me to start this discussion.

 

In the computer environment the red color and word "Error" in big font mean typically some fatal problems requiring immediate attention. I am sure that I did nothing wrong or illegal, I only clicked a link containing your pseudonym. I had no reason to suppose and no means to know that these pages were not allowed for me. Seriously speaking the user interface is constructed against good ergonomic standards when allowing the premium members to indirectly cause pointless error messages to appear on the screen.

 

That page with red text is, however, obviously intended as an advertisement of the premium membership. And easiest way for me to avoid non-informative and unwanted GC ads seemed to be last sunday to avoid clicking the links containing your pseudonyme! I suppose it was not your goal...

 

********

 

Hello Martti et al!

 

Like Divine, I totally missed Martti's point. Yes, I agree with you Martti, that the message geocaching.com gives to non-premium members, when they try enter

MOC, should be different. I can discuss about it with TPTB, if they could change it to bit friendly.

 

In spite of that I will still make MOC's, but like I did with previous 3 MOC's of mine, I will change them later to normal caches.

 

regards, Olli

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