Surveyors Currently Working...

[Pschtyckque]

There are some surveyors working on our main street over the last two days. They started with this mark (HS0908), and worked their way up the street. Along the way, they left small metal disks nailed into the street whereever they placed their transits. They had also spray painted numbers next to these disks.

 

What do these disks mean? Is it just for future reference? Are they meant to be permanent? I also noticed a bunch of other large nails in the street, but with no disks or numbers. Could these have been older marks?

 

Here's an image of one of the tags.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any answers you may have.

[+planetrobert]

it is just a refrence for them... WP114 is like GC43AD

[+Sagefox]

I'm curious about this too. I'm starting to see WP markings and suspect that it is used for gps surveying for marking their waypoints. Perhaps our surveyor benchmark hunters can weigh in ont this.

[Z15]

The points are they because they need to leave something in the surface or what good would a survey be? The nails are there for future use and for repeatability. They may be mapping and these points are reference for other work. A surveyor always leaves a point in the ground so he can come back another day and do more work or to have a point for others to use in building a structure, road or whatever.

 

I have not idea exactly what WP 114 means but if I was to take a experienced guess, I would say its Work Point 114. The could have just pulled any number out of the air or started at 1 or 100 etc. You have to identify your points or you are doing nothing. If you were to see the surveyors field notes, all the work he did when occupying WP 114 would be noted.

 

Surveying is the measurement of angles and distances. This can be applied to position and elevation.

 

We would often use these codes in the field, along with a number to ID our work points but anyone could use whatever the felt was appropriate for their work.

 

Sometimes people mark things to confuse others.

 

CP = Control Point

TP = Traverse Point or Turning Point in our leveling loops

TBM = Temporary BM (one that was expendable)

BM = Bench Mark (Permanent Mark)

VCP = Vertical Control Point

HVCP = Horizontal & Vertical Control Point

 

There were others but its too much to get into here.

Edited January 23, 2004 by elcamino

[+Renegade Knight]

It's hard to see in the photo but often they use a PK Nail which is a tough short nail for pounding into asphalt. The larger metal disk is a "shiner" so you can find the PK agian. the WP 114 would be shorthand for whatever they are naming points in the survey they are doing.

 

Now they can come back, do more survey work and it takes a lot less time to get set up and going.

[Z15]

fyi

 

Pk is just a brand name (Parker-Kalon) for a masonry nail. These can be found in many hardware stores. These were not magnetized for many years but are now. Says PK on the head and has a dot in the center.

 

There is another widely used masonry nail. Its called a MAG nail and has MAG on the head. These were marketed to surveyors as a better magnetic nail.

Edited January 23, 2004 by elcamino

[Pschtyckque]

Thanks guys. I sort of had the idea that that's what they were used for.

 

I also noticed that the marks on the opposite side of the street have different 2-letter designations (RW). Some of the disks are shiny silver-colored disks, and others are brass and stamped Cal Trans, our highway department. I did find one that they had placed on one side of the street, but then painted it over in black, and placed a mark on the other side. It was on a curve, so perhaps they couldn't get a good line of sight.

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

Like ElCamino said, the point you found are survey control points, most likely to be used later either by the same survey crew or possibly a different contractor for the same project.

 

The point itself is most likely relevant only to the project and/or crew that set it and can be called anything to identify it, similar to the designation on a benchmark. The number that is painted by the point is most likely an arbitrary number, but I'm at a loss as to what 'WP' stands for. It could be an abbreviation for the company that set the point. Many survey firms use 'CP' for 'Control Point' but other firms, including mine, use the initials of their company. I usually mark my survey control as 'TCE#01' or 'TCE#26' etc. There are other firms in my area that mark their control points in a similar manner (ie 'YH-01', ESP5004, and DX12). I can always tell who has been working in the area by the way the points are marked.

 

Marking points with the company name or acronym like this can sometimes be necessary. About 2 years ago, a large baseball stadium was built in our downtown area. Our firm was hired to do a topographic survey of the city streets adjacent to the stadium for improvement purposes. Other survey firms were hired for different aspects of the project - site work, boundary, off-site construction staking, etc. It so happened that there was another, unrelated project happening a block over that required surveyors. On one day in particular there were five different survey crews (four were private firms and one city crew) working within two blocks of each other! We were all over each other and consequently had to label our survey control points differently, not so much for ourselves, but for the other contractors that would be using the control points from any specific crew or company. Sometimes, due to different aspects of the main stadium project overlapping, different crews shared information and we would tie survey control from another company into our own. Different labeling techniques of the points on the ground made it easy to see what survey control you were using and what you weren't.

Edited January 24, 2004 by Kewaneh & Shark

[Pschtyckque]

The nails used in this job are PK nails. I've been looking closer, and there are nails pounded all over the street! Obviously from previous jobs.

 

How long do these usually stay in as reference points? Some of these nails look pretty worn.

 

Are they ever removed?

[+Renegade Knight]

The nails will reamain until they rebuild the road. They may never be used again after the initial survey.

 

However their useful life may be several years as a project winds it's way through the process from initial survey to construction and sometimes even the lawsuits.

[Pschtyckque]

Cool, thanks.

 

Now I have something new to look for (as if I'm not looking at the ground for things enough!)

[Prof. Y. Lupardi]

For ease we call our benchmarks 'official' or 'wild'.

The first are know in the databases of the 'Kadaster' and the others are owned by some surveyer and have positions only known to them.

Sometimes one can be lucky as here in this story: The GPS-Kernnet point Hazerswoude Zuiddijk and the wild marker Leiderdorp

 

Sometimes I make a search for those wild markers as in here: The Benchmark Hunting Page

[CallawayMT]

Kewaneh & Shark and elcamino have both done an excellent job of explaining survey control. So I am going to go out on a limb on these particular nails and guess that they may be a proposed Centerline alignment and either R/W or edge of proposed new road. Another possibility is offset staking for a new sewer, waterline or other utility. Generally there would be a lot more info for these, such as stationing, offset & cut data.

 

There sounds like there are just too many nails in this area to be a control traverse. There are more possibilities involved with these nails, the only real answer would be to ask the surveyors or wait and see what happens. The wait and see approach could take you a few years to find out, the wheels of progess on some government projects can move very slowly.

 

Regards,

[Z15]

fyi

 

R/W usually stands for Right of Way, as does ROW. Could be easement or deeded land for use of the public.

 

From the additional info you mentioned it would appear they are determining R/W for future construction or just to monument it to control encroachment etc. We often had problems with people thinking they owned land up to the edge of the pavement and would place wells, satellite dish's, park cars and you name in the ROW. If the state fails to take action to prevent this, they could be held liable in court if something were to happen like an accident etc. One of our biggest problems was people placing concrete etc for the mailbox. If someone were to hit that and damage or injury were occur, the person who place it and the state would be liable. I recall about 10 yrs ago 2 high schools girls were killed when there econo box went off the road and hit a mailbox that had a 4" steel pipe set into concrete. The state paid millions over that.

 

I recall one accident that happened on the interstate bridge between Wisconsin and Michigan. It was a serious head one with fatalities. It happened so close the state line that the court ordered the state line monumented to determine jurisdiction, turned out the state in which the neg homicide case was pending was not where the accident happened. In Wisconsin by 10 ft. Hard to monument the state line with a 1/4 mile wide river. Some federal agency did the survey but I cannot remember who, USBLM most likely.

 

I have worked on projects where there were many nails and or monuments placed that to even the most knowledged would seem to be totally confusing.

Edited January 24, 2004 by elcamino

[Pschtyckque]

Interesting information.

 

But these marks bounce back and forth across the street. The benchmark starting point is down the hill and around a bend from the last nail I can find. I imagine the nails go back and forth just to get a line of sight around the curve.

 

My theory is that they're planning to rebuild a rundown sidewalk, and were taking measurements for it. That's the only new construction project I believe is on the books. This is an old Callifornia Gold Rush town, and change comes slowly.

 

And as for El Camino's R/W explanation, makes sense. But on the RW tags are only on the eastern side of the street. On the western side, it is marked WP###. Still curious about that one.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Control Point Data. (Random Points)

The one who can answer your question is the Engineer or Surveyor in Charge of the Project,You have to know what his (Contol)is.

ROW's usually have a W.P. Witness Post,this being what ever the Project width of ROW is 60',45',30'ect.If you measure from the ROW to the Witness post this will answer the width of ROW question.

 

The Data that is gleened from the Control Points is then Taken to the Computer and then Plotted in,and futher drafted out.

 

[+WaldenRun]

Speaking of surveyors leaving things behind while they are working, check out the NICE GPS unit I found in the woods:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...7b-e54ad9c4bb94

 

It was sitting there collecting data, with its fancy case sitting on the ground next to it. I guess the firm doing the survey didn't figure anyone would be in such a random place in the woods.

 

To learn more about this type of unit, go here:

 

http://www.mindspring.com/~optical/locus.htm

 

-WR

[Z15]

We often had no choice most times but to leave a receiver worth about $35,000 unattended. We did not have the manpower to babysit the equipment. I had 3 receivers and I was the only person on the crew most days. Probably the same with that instance. In 5 yrs never had a problem. We had some signs that we put nearby warning of hazardous radio waves and to keep away.

 

A local surveyor had someone take his receiver and tripod on afternoon. I heard it reported on the 6pm evening news. Next day they said it was a mistake. A sheriff deputy was on his way home and say it along the R/W and though it was the county surveyors equipment. So he put in the patrol car and thought no more about it till the next am. The county surveyor was working about 2 miles from the location, so he stopped to tell them they forgot something the night before and then found out it was reported stolen. He was embarrassed.

[KenRobbins]

When we are running survey control, we usually use RLSxx, where xx is the number of the station and RLS is the abbreviation of our company name. The WP could be the name of a local survey firm. Most control of that nature (PK nails, MAG nails, 60 penny nails, etc.) are meant to be temporary only. By temporary I mean a monument that has not been set in concrete etc. They can and do last quite a long time.

 

What the point represents is known to the survey crew or firm. Generally these nails can be used in construction layout when the point being staked falls on pavement or concrete. Otherwise I use various sizes of wooden stakes and lathe.

[GeoCharlie]

I have seen these too. Sometimes, in the curbs of my street and nearby streets I have seen nails or small unmarked disks.