+rooboy Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 This subject was raised a little while ago, and at that time I thought that real me didn't use a manual compass. After all, what is a GPSr used for? Well I have seen the error of my ways and now take a "good old compass" with me on every geocaching expedition. As many of us have experienced, a GPSr is not the best compass. First you need a signal, and then you need to walk in a straight line, for a couple of paces, before the GPSr can calculate your heading. But I have had most use for my manual compass when I have gone geocaching in areas I am not familar with. Which direction are we walking in? I think we are going south. No I think that we are goind west? Huh? Anyone have any other manual compass experiences? As an aside, it is revelaing how easily it is for the human to get disorientated, whether it be in one dimension (time), two dimensions (bushwalking in featureless terrain), or three dimensions (flying in cloud--you should not be using VFR to do this!). Ciao RooBoy Quote
+Bloencustoms Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I've used a magnetic compass a couple of times to demonstrate it's usefulness when combined with a friend's GPSr which lacks an integral electronic compass. Ususally, I use the one in my Vista, but it has the disadvantage of requiring recalibration after each battery change. Anyone who has done this knows how silly it makes you look. Quote
+carleenp Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I used to not use a compass. I have a pretty good "natural sense" of direction, and here in Nebraska, I could always "feel" which direction I was facing. Well, then I went to Colorado and found the manual compass very helpful while bushwacking up the side of a mountain for a difficult cache. My natural sense of direction got all messed up, it was hard bushwacking under tree cover to walk enough for the gps to be accurate, and fortunately I had picked up a working compass as a FTF prize in the last cache I visited and had it with me. It was one of those cheap, but decent clip combos that had a thermometer, whistle and compass (forget those really cheap keychain ones, they tend to not work). That compass, which fortunately works quite well, helped us alot! I now always have it clipped on the outside of my pack. Quote
+BadAndy Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I think I've had a compass in my pack since Boy Scouts...use it all the time. Quote
+Navdog Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 (edited) I use the Suunto Vista hand bearing compass. It's been great in helping me design some multi-caches with it's pinpoint accuracy, as well as a handy little gadget to help zero in on a cache. I can stand back 100' from a cache and usually pinpoint exactly where the box is. Edited December 8, 2003 by Navdog Quote
+Renegade Knight Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I have one that I got to place an offset cache. Since then I've only used it once to try to find a goofy cache where you had a bearing and distance from the old coordinates. (Backwards) It didn't work and we ended up using our GPS's. Quote
+Navdog Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Since then I've only used it once to try to find a goofy cache where you had a bearing and distance from the old coordinates. (Backwards) It didn't work and we ended up using our GPS's. huh? Quote
+Navdog Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Since then I've only used it once to try to find a goofy cache where you had a bearing and distance from the old coordinates. (Backwards) It didn't work and we ended up using our GPS's. huh? Never mind, I looked at your profile. Quote
Jomarac5 Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 (edited) Since my GPSr doesn't have a built-in compass, I always carry one with me when caching. I set up a multi-cache where a compass is required to find the cache (except for the third visitor -- but he is a super-cacher). To accomodate those that don't carry a compass with them, I left a loaner compass at the second stage. The cache is called WWII - Irene Pearce Trail. ***** Edit: typo Edited December 8, 2003 by Jomarac5 Quote
+Renegade Knight Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Normally you do a bearing a distance from the coordinates to get to the spot you want. This cache was the opposite. You knew you were at the right spot when the bearing and distance to the cache coordinates matched the one on the cache page. Backwards. Quote
Tahosa and Sons Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Never go without one. And a lot of my caches have some kind of compass work built into them, that electronic marvel will only get you so close. And when Carleen goes West in 04 I know that she will put that compass to use . Its time for a real Rocky Mountain High. Quote
+CompassCollector Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Never venture into the wilderness without at least one good (read "manual") compass. I always take two. But then again, I've been a compass nut for lo these many years before I discovered geocaching. Quote
+shawhh Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 used map and compass to find my way years before gps. it's quite comfortable for me, and i find i use my compass regularly while caching. also, if your gps dies for whatever reason, the compass will always show you north and allow you to orient yourself in strange surroundings. could save some embarrassment. you know, lost with all the latest in high tech navigation equipment with you but no batteries, haha. good luck. for more on using map and compass i highly recommend "becoming expert with map and compass" by bjorn kjellstrom. -harry Quote
+2Wheel'in Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I freely admit that I have no internal sense of direction...that's one of the reasons I acquired my first GPSr However, the prettier half of our geocaching team must have been a bird in a former life...she never gets turned around or lost! I always carry a manual compass when geocaching or benchmark hunting, and I find it invaluable when satellite coverage is spotty...it's led me to more than one hard to find cache. The compass doesn't weigh much, doesn't take up much room in the "kit", and could be a life (or at least time) saver in extreme conditions. Quote
+hikemeister Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I always carry a compass in my pack, not so much for use in geocaching, as in Scouts -- I teach orienteering in our local troop. In fact this weekend, we had a fantastic camping trip, doing an event that combined wilderness survival, finding your way without a compass, with a compass, with a GPS..... and then an introduction to geocaching and an afternoon of cache finding. HM Quote
+Mule Ears Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 An excellent use for a magnetic compass in conjuction with GPS is identifying distant terrain features. Suppose you're taking a picture and there's a small peak in the background that you want to name in the caption. It's hard to tell on the GPSr's low-res map. What to do? Here's what: mark a waypoint at your position and take a compass bearing to the peak. Use the bearing in the name of the waypoint--for example "PK019" if the peak's at 19 degrees. When you get home, you can either download a detailed topo map from the web or use mapping software to find what peak(s) lie along that bearing from that waypoint. While you're still in the field, if you think there's going to be some ambiguity, you can always shoot a couple or more waypoint/bearings as you travel. Maybe the best aspect of this compass use is that it encourages compass practice without discipline. When the GPSr is working it can be difficult to force yourself to practice the old-fashioned methods. But as long as GPSr's have small screens and limited maps, you'll find use for this technique pretty often. And it's interesting to see how good or bad your compass shots are; plus or minus a couple degrees is good. Quote
+Q2XL Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I always carry at least one compass with me (usually a Silva Ranger (20+ years old) or a Brunton electronic Outback. The "weight to save my butt" factor makes it a simple choice for me. On a side note at work we use Suunto's (1/2 degree accuracy but very expensive). On the down side, every year I run into a hunter/hiker/etc that is lost and wants to know where they are and to their great amazement they learn that a compass doesn't point to their truck. Quote
+welch Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Since a couple of the first caches I looked for involved creek beds/ ravines with heavy cover over the top, the need for a regular compass because very obvious. It helps make staying on course much easier for the times the gps reception wasn't so hot Quote
JustaCrawlin Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I agree with others in this discussion. The old magnetic, and reliable compass is a must. I have yet to purchase a GPS (intend to buy a Garmin Rino 120 after the holidays). But that hasn't prevented me from experiencing the fun of geocaching. I have found that by using the online maps and a lensatic compass, I can pinpoint the location of the cache. This technique, (which applies basic map/compass navigation skills) limits the caches one can seek. As long as the cache is placed in relation to two key features that are on a map and are not obstructed from view it is fairly easy to locate the location. Actually, I would be interested if anyone is aware of some caches that lend themselves to map/compass skills as opposed to GPS's. Don't misunderstand me, I am not promoting the elimination of GPS's, just believe it is nice to keep the old map/compass skills alive. Quote
+BlueDeuce Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Let me balance out this thread by saying I don't carry a compass. BUT, considering everyone's postings I think I better start. I guess waypointing the northpole ain't gonna work as well as I thought. Quote
+Maeglin Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 The first cache that I attempted, I tried doing it without a compass, and that's when it bit me in the arse. If you don't have a GPSr with a compass in it, it's difficult to figure out which direction you should start out when you're standing still, as most will only tell you where you're heading after you start moving. Quote
+Halden Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I carry one because I didn't see the cost value in getting a GPSr with an electronic compass and besides a manual compass never runs of of batteries, loses signal or gets too cold. I find it quite helpful to use my compass to hone in those last few metres. Quote
+sledgehampster Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 $2.50 WalMart Sporting Goods special. Always in the front of my GPS pack with the extra (GPS) food. Quote
+EScout Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I always carry a compass. For some caches, like one I placed in trees, it helps to take a bearing in the clear. (I just gave this tip to someone who couldn't find it) Quote
+gallahad Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 What's a "manual" compass? I've heard of lensatic compass, card compass, baseplate compass, protractor compass, thumb compass, and magnetic compass, but "manual" compass is a new term for me. Quote
+CO Admin Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 Manual, another term for a non-electric compass, ie. in a GPS Quote
+astheravenflies Posted December 8, 2003 Posted December 8, 2003 I usually have my trusty Silva Ranger with me, but I haven't used it much for caching. Before the advent of GPS, you could find your position with a decent compass and topographic map by shooting bearings of nearby landmarks or peaks. Having an altimeter helped the accuracy. Any geologist (with a helper) can make a topographic map of an area using a tape measure and Brunton Pocket Transit (a compass and clinometer). I haven't tried it, but it would be interesting to locate a cache with just a compass and topo map (and straightedge, protractor, and pencil). Quote
gm100guy Posted December 9, 2003 Posted December 9, 2003 the compass I use I always carry my eclipse compass and my trusty top map of the area. You can read the UTM off the gps and then plot your position on the map with the roamer on the compass. Quote
+cajitracks Posted December 9, 2003 Posted December 9, 2003 When there are two of you and only one has the GPSr, it really involves the other one in the hunt if he has a compass. Also, a BIG help, we have found out. Quote
+Bloencustoms Posted December 9, 2003 Posted December 9, 2003 An excellent book "The Essential Wilderness Navigator" teaches how to use a topo map in combination with a compass. The explanation is thorough, and simple. Check it out if you want to know more. Quote
+WaldenRun Posted December 9, 2003 Posted December 9, 2003 Actually, I would be interested if anyone is aware of some caches that lend themselves to map/compass skills as opposed to GPS's. Don't misunderstand me, I am not promoting the elimination of GPS's, just believe it is nice to keep the old map/compass skills alive. You could try some of these. -WR Quote
+HartClimbs Posted December 9, 2003 Posted December 9, 2003 Manual, another term for a non-electric compass, ie. in a GPS I carry a compass, and a manual on how to use it! Yup, I pretty much always have the compass with me (although most days, it's fairly easy to keep bearings unless the weather closes in). Quote
+Alan2 Posted December 10, 2003 Posted December 10, 2003 COmpasses are great but don't forget to mark a waypoint for your car and take extra batteries. Quote
+Navdog Posted December 10, 2003 Posted December 10, 2003 Actually, I would be interested if anyone is aware of some caches that lend themselves to map/compass skills as opposed to GPS's. Don't misunderstand me, I am not promoting the elimination of GPS's, just believe it is nice to keep the old map/compass skills alive. Two caches I have placed that will challenge your navigational skills with map and compass: The Legend of Skull Hollow Bushmaster Quote
Clown Knife Posted December 11, 2003 Posted December 11, 2003 I always carry a compass, but I rarely use it. I do use the digital compass in my MeriPlat when geocaching. It works great and I love it. I mainly use my analog compass to check my digital compass to see if it needs to be calibrated. Both work for me. Quote
Wanderingson Posted December 11, 2003 Posted December 11, 2003 I have a collection of lensatic compasses--some rare antique ones too. I even keep one on my watchband. I normally start a newcomer to the outdoors with basic compass skills. It's still one of those essential skills I teach folks. I also teacjh folks a little trick of telling how long before the sun reaches the horizon (sunset) by extending your arm in front of you facing the sun. By extending each finger and counting 15 minutes for each finger, you will get an approximate sunset time. Both hands 8 fingers equals about two hours. Give it a try. BTW my GPS does give sunset times, but it is a cool tip to teach newcomers. Quote
jackbear Posted December 11, 2003 Posted December 11, 2003 Hey Halden has it right, though not the same reasons as me. I have an old Trimble Scountmaster GPS, and that clunky sucker doesn't have a compass, map, any of that stuff. It gives me a bearing to head, so I gotta carry a compass. Oh sure, I plan to one day upgrade, but it works, and its good at keeping my compass skills honed. But its a two handed operation, and that I don't like so much. Oh well, keep caching...no matter what you use. grrrr....jackbear Quote
Wanderingson Posted December 13, 2003 Posted December 13, 2003 Jackbear siad But its a two handed operation, and that I don't like so much Hey, hey, hey This is a family oriented website. Is that where Jack bear came from? O-E O-E O-E O-E Quote
+LukeH Posted December 13, 2003 Posted December 13, 2003 I always have a compass with me; the only times I have ventured up into the mountains without one was during the time between losing my old one and buying a new one. The compass is one of the best tools you can have. That's all I had when I did evasion training - no fancy GPS fun. One thing I find a compass is particularly useful for is counteracting the effects of human assumptions and dead reckoning. Just like always trusting your instruments in the airplane rather than your senses, the compass will always be right (unless you're standing in a metal box, in which case sorry, you're screwed). Example: There is a mountain about a half mile to the west of here, which is a very popular hike. To ascend it you must follow a valley north of it until you get to the pass and can start climbing to the peak. What most people don't notice, no doubt due to the depth of the valley and the amount of tree cover, is that while the path starts out going west, it gradually curves behind the mountain and goes southwest for a while, then ends up coming back to the east again. Most people assume that the trail is straight and goes only west, and thus are a bit disoriented when they get to the top and can get their bearings by looking for landmarks. Quote
+Alan2 Posted December 13, 2003 Posted December 13, 2003 Getting disorganized is easy when you're scuba diving. Anyone who's followd a compass underwater would swear you're going the wrong direction it's so easy to get confused. Hmm. It would be interesting to hook up an underater GPS. I guess you'd have to drag along a floating antenna to get the sats but that would be an interesting experiment. Quote
+astheravenflies Posted December 13, 2003 Posted December 13, 2003 (edited) True that compasses are subject to deflection when near metal objects like cars and barbed wire fences, but not aluminum beer cans. So you can hold a compass in one hand and your beer in the other and its no problem. Way back in college, one of our assignments was to make a topographic map using a Brunton compass and a tape measure. We were mapping the back-40 of the college campus, which was partly an ag school (Cal Poly Pomona), and we had to make a big loop and see how much error we had upon closing the loop. Our professor cleverly had a portion of the loop pass near a barbed wire fence just to see if we would be thrown off. I can't remember how much error I had, but we had a great beer bar on campus. Edited December 13, 2003 by astheravenflies Quote
+TotemLake Posted December 13, 2003 Posted December 13, 2003 Along with my MeriPlat electronic compass, I also have a Suunto Vector wristwatch with electronic compass. I also carry a lensatic compass and a simple magnetic compass/whistle/emergency match holder. At one time or another I have used each singly, and in combination of electronic/magnetic to double check against variables. Quote
+Lone Duck Posted December 13, 2003 Posted December 13, 2003 I don't normally cache with a compass. In Ohio, it's hard to get truely lost, although there have been times that I've been disoriented for a while. I can almost always keep my bearings by listening to traffic noises and watching where the sun is. There was one time that I wasn't where I wanted to be, but knew that if I kept going North I would cut across the roadway I was parked on. I eventually did and it was an hour's walk up the road back to where I had parked. If I'm going into really unfamiliar terrain, then the old Sylva compass comes along. Quote
+Don&Betty Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 I always use a base-plate orienteering compass in conjunction with my old Magellan 410 GPSR's compass-rosette display mode. The GPS shows a compass dial with NSEW, and with an icon for the sun and an icon for the cache, at places around the outside of the rosette. It also shows the distance to the cache. I hold my compass alongside the GPS (not too close) and continuously rotate and hold the entire GPS until the rosette's North arrow aligns with the compass's North arrow. Then the cache icon's position on the rosette points out the actual physical direction to the actual cache. This procedure is simpler than reading the indicated bearing number to the cache and setting that into the compass. I've never figured how anybody could do geocaching without using a compass and this system along with his GPS. Quote
+TotemLake Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 ...and? did you notice a difference? The electronic compasses typically show within 3 degrees of the magnetics which is within the stated range of the electronics. For the short distances, the electronic compasses work just as good as the magnetic compasses. However, that doesn't stop me from carrying the magnetics to act as backup when I drain all available batteries. Quote
+Alan2 Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 I was waiting in my car for the light to change yesterday, watching the full moon and noticed I could see it move over the less than the minute I watched it. Then I had an idea. Since the earth rotates west to east, couldn't you watch the moon, or sun, or stars over a 5 or 10 minute period comparing to a fixed object like a tree limb, to determine which way is north east south and west? I never read of this method. Has anyone tried it? Alan Quote
+wildearth2001 Posted January 9, 2004 Posted January 9, 2004 I am a competative orienteer so you would expect me to use a compass alot. Well I don't, map only!! If you know how to read a map intimatlty you don't need a compass Quote
+Don&Betty Posted January 12, 2004 Posted January 12, 2004 (edited) [quote= "couldn't you watch the sun, over 10 minute period to determine which way is east and west?" Yes, an accurate technique to determine N-S if you're lost without a compass is to stick a 2-3 foot stick into the ground, then mark where the shadow of its tip is at two times, 20-30 minutes apart. A line sighted from the first point to the second point is looking precisely east. A quicker, rough way to find your bearings is merely that the sun is always somewhat south of us, because of the tilt of the Earth and because of our 40-deg latitude. It is always straight south at noon. (Watch out for daylight savings time.) Since the sun is moving about 15 degrees per hour, you can first estimate how many hours you are before or after noon, then south is 15 deg west of the sun for each hour it is before noon, and 15 deg east of the sun for each hour it is after noon. Edited January 12, 2004 by Don&Betty Quote
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