+DenaliNW Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by joedohn: Geez, if I'd known gaining elite status only cost $30 bucks I'd have paid long ago.... You already have elite status here in the Portland area. quote:At the risk of sounding self-aggrandizing, I think I place pretty good caches (by and large) and if a person is going to pay $30 for the pleasure of seeking MOC's then there should be some good ones available. They'd be crazy not to support the website, and miss out on doing your caches (Seriously, Joe's caches are some of the best in the Portland, OR area. They always rank high on my list - just don't like the spiders ). quote:As a rule we pay for many of our pleasures. Especially those dependent on the efforts of others. So I have no problem saying "to play, you must pay". After all, we pay for the theater, pro-sports, museums, National Parks, etc. etc. EXACTLY! I just don't get the complaints - sounds like mostly whining to me. Quote Link to comment
Best_Buddies Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by joedohn: I've just made all my caches members only because I want to encourage other cachers to become members. Good going. I wish that there were more people like you. Then, there will be NO caches for newbies to find. They will have to pony up $30 in advance before they can experience their first find, which they will *NOT* do. Then, the sport enjoys a nice quiet retirement where the only people who play it are the charter members. Sounds like a plan to me. This is why I am opposed to MOcaches. I can understand a few special ones being reserved, but the wholesale movement of entire groups of caches to MO status damages the sport. Think back to when you nabbed your first cache. Suppose that when you went to search for caches near you, that you were told to please deposit $3.00. I doubt that you would have done it, and I doubt that you would be here today. I want to see this site succeed, and I hope that Jeremy is able to be completely in the black, but I do NOT want to see it done at the expense of the sport. I am NOT against memberships, just MOcahces. I would not even mind so much if all MOcaches reverted to regular cahces after 1 month. I am just afraid of the regular cahces disappearing. Please forgive my sarcasm. I simply have very strong feelings on this subject. BTW: I am thinking about planning a new cache, where the "first find" goodie would be valued at $50. How would you feel if I stated that nobody who has placed a MOcache can participate. I do not want to exclude others, but the ones that I would be excluding would be the ones who obviously feel that it is OK to exclude people. What to you think? [This message was edited by harrkev on March 12, 2002 at 10:45 AM.] Quote Link to comment
Jeremy Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by harrkev:Good going. I wish that there were more people like you. Then, there will be NO caches for newbies to find. They will have to pony up $30 in advance before they can experience their first find, which they will *NOT* do. To make your theory correct, that would mean that you do not exist. Stay with me here. You will never create a mocache, correct? You feel that others that play feel the same way that you do, and won't place mocaches either? So the only way that there will be no newbie caches to find is if there is no one with your point of view. You say that the eventual result in mocaches are that there will no longer be "non mocaches". I suspect that there are lots of caches now, and most of them will be non mocaches. I think at this point we should agree to disagree. Until there is an epidemic of frustrated emails from newbies who can't find caches they can go to, lets let this issue rest. It is a tool that the cache owner (who rightly makes their *own* decisions about their *own* caches) can decide to use or not. And no, I won't give non members the ability to only allow non members to see their caches. You see, that would be a premium tool which you'd have to pay for, and that would be a Catch-22. Fin. Jeremy Quote Link to comment
+joedohn Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Aaaah Denali. It's always the spiders with you, always the spiders.... Quote Link to comment
+planetrobert Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 I truly understand why the site now has member only caches, As Quad stated before he would convert his caches to general public caches after a bit of time 2 weeks I beleive is a good Idea, I actually play this game in the same area and subscribed just to find that cache among a few others. Some caches that I put out will be done as member only... at first then I will change them to everyone caches Now where did I set my GPS??? Quote Link to comment
+TX Tiger Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 I've read several of the threads covering MOC/subscription caches and charter membership but I have been unable to find where/how to make a donation. I really don't care about being labeled a "charter member" as I know I not but I see nothing wrong with supporting the operation of the site. Can someone help me out and tell me how the conrtibution stuff works? Thanks Quote Link to comment
+Ddog-N-Ma Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe/ Quote Link to comment
+Thraxman Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 I will have you all know that I am VERY elite. I got my 30 buck charter membership. But if that doesn't convince you all... here is MORE proof: The other weekend, I went to Burger King. I didn't buy the regular Whopper Combo, because I was concerned that my thirst would not be quench by a regular size soft-drink, and I decided having extra fries would be much better than having too FEW french fries. So I purchased the Elite King-Sized Whopper Combo. That same day, I decided to see a movie. Could have went to the matinee for 5 bucks, but I elected to go to the ELITE showing in the evening for 8 bucks. I am thinking of upgrading my GPSR. I now use the little yellow basic eTrex. BUT, being ELITE, I want a different model. One with maps. Yeah. That costs more. Must make me ELITE! OK, now I hope you all realize I am just goofing around here, and doing so to make a point. Paying a little extra for an upgrade is not a gesture of elitism. Heck... the local fire deptartments solicit donations over the phone in this area... if you donate, they send you tickets to some "Legends of Rock" concert. Is that an "elite" concert? I don't think so (especially after seeing the names that were playing... lol). I know of several other area cachers that have purchased charter memberships, and I don't know that any of them did so with the intent of making the bulk of their future caches mocaches. I personally have plans to place a number of caches in the area over the next few weeks. I *MAY* make *ONE* a mocache, and if I do, it will be for a limited time, kind of as a tip of the hat to anyone who bought a membership. And you know what? If I would place a mocache, and someone emailed me, telling me that they donated last year, or bought a bunch of travel bugs and bumper stickers, or just plain don't want to pay to cache but feel that they are the champion of "cache in trash out", or whatever, I'd probably e-mail them the co-ordinates. It is not about elitism, it is about supporting the game. Everyone has their own way of doing that. And I think, based on what I have read in the forums (I am guilty of lurking a lot) that a fair majority are comfortable with the charter membership as a way to do that, myself included. Others will support the game in their own ways, and I don't think many will look down on them for that. I just can't see any of the charter members I know feeling all high-and-mighty because they paid 30 bucks. They did it to support the game, and they liked the little perks. My predictions, and you can mark my words on these: 1) mocaches will never make up more than 15% of all caches, and I'd be surprised if it will ever be that high. And many will be mocaches for only a limited time. 2) Geocaching will NOT splinter as some have predicted due to free cache sites popping up. Face it, this site IS still free, despite what some are trying to convince us (How many caches available to free members? Many thousands? OK.). Navicache is a nice site, but, seriously, this is and always will be THE central geocache database. 3) "Newbies" will remain just as welcome to the sport as ever. I personally was thrilled when, a few months ago, a mother and son found one of my caches as their first find. I bet many people are the same way, and would be reluctant to place any permanent mocaches because of it. Anyhow, it is getting late, sorry about not proof-reading this before posting Quote Link to comment
FullOn Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I personally could care less about MOC's. I think they are probably not such a hot idea, just because of the furor they have caused. I gave my $30 bucks because I love geocaching and this is the way Jeremy has decided he has to go to keep it up and running. I will probably never place a MO cache, but for those that will, fine. The sport is big enough for all of us. My 2¢. "They should call it geo-lost-again." - My wife Quote Link to comment
BassoonPilot Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote:Originally posted by (Wishes to remain Anonymous ): Am I going to change my title to Geocacher instead of Charter Member? Yes, but only after I've told everyone about my intentions several times. Debates similar to the one in this thread are rarely about labels; it's about the underlying attitudes. [This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 13, 2002 at 11:23 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+geospotter Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 It seems to me that some of us are exactly 180 degrees off. Here are some examples.. First, "elitists". If I pay, I'm elitist. (Please turn 180 degrees) - "I want it d**n it, and I'm not going to pay for it!" Now THAT'S elitist! Here's another 180... "Jeremy wants us to pay?" Well, actually, no. Jeremy just wants to eat. WE are the ones who want something. "Jeremy, could I get...." "Jeremy, how do I..." "Jeremy, what we need is..." Again, Jeremy is not the one who wants, WE are. If we didn't want so much Jeremy could do this in his spare time. (You get to geocache in your spare time, Jeremy gets to sit behind a desk writing code.) Someone stated "Why are we here? Because we like to geocache." (Do that 180 thing again...) Actually, we are here FIRST because Jeremy produced a site for us to be HERE at, once we discovered this site THEN we discovered we like to geocache. Without THIS site I doubt many of us would have found geocaching. Forgive me, I'm not very good at putting my thoughts into words. After re-reading this it all sounded so much better in my head. But I hope you get my point. Let's hope Jeremy doesn't do a 180 and shut the whole site down. geospotter (signature removed) [This message was edited by geospotter on March 13, 2002 at 01:41 PM.] Quote Link to comment
BassoonPilot Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote:Originally posted by geospotter: Forgive me, I'm not very good at putting my thoughts into words. After re-reading this it all sounded so much better in my head. But I hope you get my point. I thought you made a fine presentation. Quote Link to comment
+tslack2000 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote:Originally posted by BassoonPilot: Debates similar to the one in this thread are rarely about labels; it's about the underlying attitudes. What I've addressed in this thread, and I hope it is quite clear, is the underlying attitude of fellow cachers. I'm not "whining" about MOCs or about $$. I'm, hopefully, keeping some people in check about their underlying attitude. I don't know why I even try, as a fellow Utah geocacher pointed out to me the other night - Why should I care what anybody does outside of Utah? I'm not seeing much of what I'm talking about taking place where I cache, what does it matter to me? It's because I care about this game (silly, isn't it?) and I care about keeping it fun for everyone like it has been for almost a year now. Joedohn's decision to make all of his caches MOCs seemed to me to be a little bit "snobby," if you will. (I'm not calling you a snob, joedohn) Apparently it has not been perceived that way in his community and people like his caches enough to pay the subscription to hunt them. (Looks like I have some recommended caches to hunt the next time I'm in Oregon!) He made them all MOC's in support of subscriptions and apparently it's working. Again, I commend him in his efforts to support Jeremy. If his community accepts a move like that and even entices more poeple into the game, great! I just hope it doesn't have more, unseen negative affects on the game. (I guess I should just hope silently from now on?) I'm all for people paying Jeremy, I just hope they feel compelled to do so for the right reasons. One last comment...When people express concerns on these forums, they are to them, legitimate concerns. I'm not a troll or a whiner or anything else. (And maybe I should use some of this "energy" and place it towards civil rights issues instead of some game.) I bring this stuff up because it concerns me. Let's have some good discussion about things and talk things out instead of just dismissing an opinion. (And hopefully not because of what it says under my name.) I'm willing to see a different point of view, even if it's not my opinion to begin with, but we have to talk it out. If you want to just dismiss my opinion, you can do that by not posting at all. My intent is not to make enemies or offend, just discuss. Tyler Slack's Geocaching in Utah Quote Link to comment
+geospotter Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Tslack2000, My comment about "whining" was not directed at you or anyone else in particular. It was meant as a take-off of "there's no crying in baseball". I've been considering it as a signature for a while. Looking back on my post I can see how it would offend, and for that I am sorry. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's here. One other thing about opinions. Few people ever consider that BOTH sides of an argument could be wrong. (Now there's a signature!) Quote Link to comment
+tslack2000 Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Geospotter, I didn't even notice your signature. I'm sorry if you felt that I directed my comments towards you specifically. (I agree with your post, by the way.) I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. Tyler Slack's Geocaching in Utah Quote Link to comment
+DenaliNW Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote:Apparently it has not been perceived that way in his community and people like his caches enough to pay the subscription to hunt them. I'm not sure who? I haven't read anything in this forum that would imply this, nor in the NW forums. Joe's reputation as a great cacher comes through in all his correspondence, and in the quality of his caches. I don't see any snobbiness in what Joe has done, nor do I think it reflects anything about his attitude or his character (I know that you were not implying this in your post). If I missed something in this thread, I'd love to know what. While this very long and old conversation could be about attitude, and the perceptions/beliefs regarding geocaching for individuals, I believe our efforts to extrapolate how this will affect the game, or what will become of Geocaching as a result of MOCs is difficult to do at best. We could use all the same arguments that anti-MOCs have used in the last week, for people who don't own a GPS, i.e. it's not fair that this group of people can hide treasures, and go on cool scavenger hunts (Granted, I know that most of these caches can be done without a GPS, by just using a compass and some good maps). I think one of the attitudes that is predominant is one of entitlement, or this odd American feeling that democracy equals fairness. The placing or not placing of a MOC says nothing about an individual, nor does the title under their names here in the forums. Perceptions of individuals though seem to speak louder . . . . Quote Link to comment
+Byron & Anne Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 It appears to me that there's a bunch elitests out there. Some caches that have very little visitors now will have even less due to this ELITEST attitude. I am willing and happy to help Jeremy defray costs and if he makes a buck or two all the better. But I see memembers only caches as "you too must pay to play". Very neighborly and friendly of you all. I was planning on doing an event this summer, can I "uninvite" those that have "members only caches"? Quote Link to comment
+Hawk-eye Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: It appears to me that there's a bunch elitests out there. .... I was planning on doing an event this summer, can I "uninvite" those that have "members only caches"? Now who's being elitest? Please let's just drop all this "holy war" garbage and go caching ... I think the whole "Geo-Jihad" group is ridiculous. That's why I changed my "elitest" title of Charter Member to "Grand Exalted Potente".... just to raise their blood pressure ... Folks ... don't you have enough grief in your everyday life ... than to dream up a "plot to undermine the common man"? If we end all this tonight ... we can finally put it to bed in just under a week's worth of whinney posts. Now, download some caches ... and plan a big geocaching weekend! [This message was edited by Hawk-eye on March 14, 2002 at 01:55 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+joedohn Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I just realized I've overlooked one consideration in making all my caches MOC's. Other people's travel bugs. I'm going to unlock the two caches of mine that have bugs in them because the creators of those bugs didn't have a choice about them being potentially neglected in a MOC. Quote Link to comment
+Byron & Anne Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 After thinking about this whole thing of "members only" caches I have figured out what my actions will be. At first I thought I'd make sure I never went after a "members only" cache. But that would be hurting myself. So I'll go after "members only" caches, but nobody will ever know, but me, that I was there. I simply will not log it either on the web or in the log book. Now mr. cache owner try to figure out how many visits you've had and by whom..... Quote Link to comment
+Hawk-eye Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: After thinking about this whole thing of "members only" caches I have figured out what my actions will be. At first I thought I'd make sure I never went after a "members only" cache. But that would be hurting myself. So I'll go after "members only" caches, but nobody will ever know, but me, that I was there. I simply will not log it either on the web or in the log book. Now mr. cache owner try to figure out how many visits you've had and by whom..... Hey ... that's the way the sport works ... do it the way you want to ... enjoy proving your point ... whatever that may be Viva la revolución !!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment
+CacheCows Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 Now here's a mature, reasoned response... quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: ...So I'll go after "members only" caches, but nobody will ever know, but me, that I was there. I simply will not log it either on the web or in the log book. Now mr. cache owner try to figure out how many visits you've had and by whom..... That's a great way to show appreciation to the cache owner for all the work, time, and expense they put into creating a cache for you to hunt and enjoy. Gee, did you miss that the whole point of mocaches is so that the cache owner will be able audit who visits the cache page, and when? Member: Quote Link to comment
+welwell Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 Originally posted by urbo: i can see kicking something to help support the site but $30 is too steep and creating these "members only" caches IS an elitist solution in my opinion. we keep the "caches found" scoring system except we add the capability for a cache keeper to filter out newbies from their caches by allowing only logged in members with a user defined "caches found" score to be able to view the cache. this way it stays open to the public but still gives folks that are worried about vandalism a way of protecting your caches. sure you could get around it and go find a few and then plunder like crazy but most "joyriders" want something easy. URBO Am I missing something. Who is the elitist The one who helps support geocaching, or the one who wants to keep the newbies out. If you fork over $30...does that make you an elitist? Quote Link to comment
+Byron & Anne Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 "Who is the Elitist?" As far as I'm concerned the elitist are those that change there caches to "members only" caches. I paid my $30 because I wish to support goecaching.com. It's been a lot of fun and got me into places and situations I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. If I was to come into the game at this time I might have a little problem getting involved if I saw too many of the "members only" caches and would be required to spend $30 just to get into it. I guess I don't really understand the thinking that would want to create a "members only" cache since the only differce between a memeber and nonmember is a $30 fee. Therefore the only reason I can see for "members only" caches is to keep nonmembers out. Now you tell me if that's an elitist position or not. One cache that was recently changed to a "member only" cache had been visited by a group of boy scouts. Those scouts might not have made the climb and visited if the situation was as it is now. That would be a loss to us and them. Furthmore what are we telling the world with this "members only" cache stuff? OK OK I'll shut up now. I've paid and I'll boycott "members only" caches. Quote Link to comment
Best_Buddies Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: I've paid and I'll boycott "members only" caches. The very fact that they made it members only means that they don't care if you visit or not. Quote Link to comment
+Hawk-eye Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: ... OK OK I'll shut up now. I've paid and I'll boycott "members only" caches. Thanks ... we appreciate that ... and if you really want to teach us a lesson ... boycott the forums too ... ooohhhh ... Quote Link to comment
+welwell Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 Frankly I don't think that anyone who is supporting Jeremy should be called an elitist. Why all the name calling. Is it just because of MOC's? I doubt if more then a handful will have them and if so... so what. At the way geocaching is growing ...soon there will be a cache on every block. Then when do you say " there are too may caches," and what do we do with the problem of too many! Is it that you think that Jeremy is going to make too much money and doesn't deserve it! Would you be willing to take his place and work seven days a weeks so others can have some fun. Are we like Chicken Litte and think the sky is going to fall. What about the other things that Jeremy has coming later for members...should we start whining now before it is announce or wait til after. Should everyone be refered to as the 'Have's and the Have-nots'. Maybe we should save our $30 and buy a case of beer for the entertainment value. ...And this too shall pass...Peace Quote Link to comment
+ApK Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 I just subscribed to the site, because I want to support the site and the forums. I have no intention of hiding or seeking any MOCs. I don't like the idea. Slippery slope and all.... Quote Link to comment
+Hawk-eye Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by welwell: Frankly I don't think that anyone who is supporting Jeremy should be called an elitist. Why all the name calling. Is it just because of MOC's? I doubt if more then a handful will have them and if so... so what. ... Well said ... very well said ... Definitely entertainment value ... but it's really getting old. Quote Link to comment
+CacheCows Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: ...if I saw too many of the "members only" caches and would be required to spend $30 just to get into it. Get back to us when this happens, okay? quote: I guess I don't really understand the thinking that would want to create a "members only cache".Perhaps you should refrain from having such a strong opinion on something that you admit to not really understanding. quote: since the only differce between a memeber and nonmember is a $30 fee. Therefore the only reason I can see for "members only" caches is to keep nonmembers out. Exactly my point, its the only reason you can see. MOCs are designed for the sole purpose of allowing members to audit who views their cache pages as a means to assist in maintaining them. Why only for members? Because its an enhance feature, a benefit to paying up and becoming a member. Member: Quote Link to comment
+Byron & Anne Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Thanks ... we appreciate that ... and if you really want to teach us a lesson ... boycott the forums too ... ooohhhh ... http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/348_1002.gif Gee Hawk-eye, I'm so sorry that I happen to disagree with one of your many opinions. I guess that anybody that disagrees with you should just stay away from geocaching and it's forums. Will your high and mightyness accept my appologies? [This message was edited by Byron & Anne on March 14, 2002 at 07:38 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+CacheCows Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: ...I guess that anybody that disagrees with you should just stay away from geocaching and it's forums. Disagreeing is fine, beating a dead horse get very old... Things are the way they are, constant soapboxing is not going to get things back to how they were prior to memberships. Accept it or not, just quit beating it. Member: Quote Link to comment
+4temeculans Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 Let $30.00 separate the men from the boys. If you havn't noticed, this is the cheapest sport in existence. To see this long list of whining makes me what to vomit. Give the guy a break, if there are other sites that don't charge for services than go for it. I would rather not have pop-ups and other ads. Quote Link to comment
+Navdog Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 Maybe all this whining over mocaches is making me emotional. But having read these forums for the last week, I am thinking about changing all my caches to MOC's. At this point I am not sure if I want self centered geocachers who have to complain about thirty bucks hunting for my caches. I would like to know that the person that finds my caches is supportive of geocaching.com. and is intersted in seeing it rise to a new level of entertainment and fun. "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be." -Douglas Adams [This message was edited by navdog on March 14, 2002 at 09:43 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+Hawk-eye Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Byron & Anne: ...Gee Hawk-eye, I'm so sorry that I happen to disagree with one of your many opinions. I guess that anybody that disagrees with you should just stay away from geocaching and it's forums. Will your high and mightyness accept my appologies?.... Absolutely ... consider yourself forgiven You really need to calm down ... NO ONE in this forum ... including the G.E.Potenate ... has slammed your opinion ... you can do what you want (re-read my posts) ... IT'S YOUR ATTITUDE you need to work on. You'd make a lot more friends that way ... there's a ton of good folks geocaching ... try meeting them without the 'tude. Quote Link to comment
BassoonPilot Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 quote:Originally posted by welwell: Frankly I don't think that anyone who is supporting Jeremy should be called an elitist. And frankly my dear, I can't see a connection between the two. Quote Link to comment
BassoonPilot Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 quote:Not original, and invariably posted by several: ...beating a dead horse gets very old... just quit beating it. But no matter how many times someone digs up a deadhorse in order to re-beat it, we can always count on others to add (multiple) posts telling them "it's a dead horse," "stop beating it," or to "stop posting." I love logic like that. (And who has been, on various occassions, "guilty as charged.") BassoonPilot Hladno mi je, a zalutao, mokar i gledan sam [This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 15, 2002 at 07:11 AM.] Quote Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.