Screwing it up for everybody!!!

August 24, 2002

Gerogeanmary,

I want to finish an MA in environmental studies. If I don not continue in the Army I would like to work the Dept of Forestry, BLM, or Dept of Fish and Game. I am very concerned with the outdoor sportsman, including geocacher, future and plan on doing what I can to protect it.

I am als a memeber of the Blue Ribon Coalition. They are large group that protects Puplic Land Use. Their link is http://www.sharetrails.org/.

I parctice and want to make people aware of the concept of Tread Lightly. This another good organization. http://www.treadlightly.org

I practice pack in and trash out, also cache in and trash out.

Ross

2.6k · August 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by RossOlson:
Georgeandmary,

You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over.

Ross

Ross

I reviewed your previous posts and I wonder if you were actually referring to yourself. The majority of your posts refer to the environmental impact of geocaching. Since you have only found 6 caches I wonder if your sole purpose on these pages is to preach. I also find it interesting that you think that if someone steps off a trail they will cause permanent damage, but that it is fine to drive a jeep off road. There seems to be a slight flaw in your logic.

I really hope that if you decide to change careers and get into land management that you will be more open minded about geocaching. I have found it to be an enjoyable family activity. My had enjoyed backpacking and hiking before discovering geocaching and found that it just added a little thrill to the outing.

I also do not understand your need to list the names of the organizations that you belong to. it only bolsters my idea on your reason for being here. But since you feel it has some significance I will tell you that I have a degree in Geology and that I have actually worked in the environmental field.

Mary

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

2.6k · August 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by RossOlson:
Georgeandmary,

You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over.

Ross

Ross

I reviewed your previous posts and I wonder if you were actually referring to yourself. The majority of your posts refer to the environmental impact of geocaching. Since you have only found 6 caches I wonder if your sole purpose on these pages is to preach. I also find it interesting that you think that if someone steps off a trail they will cause permanent damage, but that it is fine to drive a jeep off road. There seems to be a slight flaw in your logic.

I really hope that if you decide to change careers and get into land management that you will be more open minded about geocaching. I have found it to be an enjoyable family activity. My had enjoyed backpacking and hiking before discovering geocaching and found that it just added a little thrill to the outing.

I also do not understand your need to list the names of the organizations that you belong to. it only bolsters my idea on your reason for being here. But since you feel it has some significance I will tell you that I have a degree in Geology and that I have actually worked in the environmental field.

Mary

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

August 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Studies show that MTB's have relativily the same impact as hiking

What "studies"? Also, what does "relatively the same" mean?

I'm not anti-mountain bike, but it is simply absurd to claim that a person walking along the trail does just as much damage as a mountain bike. I've seen for myself the deep muddy gouges and erosion damage that mountain bikes do to the trails in my area.

August 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

quote:
Originally posted by RossOlson:
Georgeandmary,

You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over.

Ross

Ross

I reviewed your previous posts and I wonder if you were actually referring to yourself. The majority of your posts refer to the environmental impact of geocaching. {I feel their is very little impact on geocahing and it should be allowed to continue, we just have to follow the law. It is part of being in a society}

Since you have only found 6 caches I wonder if your sole purpose on these pages is to preach{I am in the Army and have spent time deployed, ever since 9/11 training has stepped up.I haven't had that much free time. I plan on doing more durning the fall.}

I also find it interesting that you think that if someone steps off a trail they will cause permanent, {my concern is the way we are precieved}

but that it is fine to drive a jeep off road {I drive on trail open to off-roading, puplic and private and pay all the required fees}.

There seems to be a slight flaw in your logic. {if you have questions of this sort email privately, lets not waste the forums space, Ross_Olson@hotmail.com}:confused:

I really hope that if you decide to change careers and get into land management that you will be more open minded about geocaching{I am open mined to all the puplic using puplic land, ane want to see more areas opened. Just be responsible}.

I have found it to be an enjoyable family activity{I am happy, more children need stronger families. If you are involving your family that is a good thing.}

My had enjoyed backpacking and hiking before discovering geocaching and found that it just added a little thrill to the outing. {i also do it along with other hobbies and find it enjoyable}

I also do not understand your need to list the names of the organizations that you belong to.{did you go to either one of those links? If you are an outdoors person you will find them interesting.}

This is a quote from George:

"I've also hosted 2 GeoEents and attended a 3rd. That's where I actually get to gether with other cachers, IN PERSON. Geoevents are a way of strengthening the geocaching community.

What exactly have you done?

george"

I was answereing his question, He is the one that brought it up.

it only bolsters my idea on your reason for being here. {what do think my reason for geing here is? Email privately if you want}

But since you feel it has some significance I will tell you that I have a degree in Geology and that I have actually worked in the environmental field. {Again it was george that brought it up. I am assuming he is aware of your background, you don't need to share it with me, i don't mind but Its not important}

Mary

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/track/5867_200.gif

August 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

quote:
Originally posted by RossOlson:
Georgeandmary,

You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over.

Ross

Ross

I reviewed your previous posts and I wonder if you were actually referring to yourself. The majority of your posts refer to the environmental impact of geocaching. {I feel their is very little impact on geocahing and it should be allowed to continue, we just have to follow the law. It is part of being in a society}

Since you have only found 6 caches I wonder if your sole purpose on these pages is to preach{I am in the Army and have spent time deployed, ever since 9/11 training has stepped up.I haven't had that much free time. I plan on doing more durning the fall.}

I also find it interesting that you think that if someone steps off a trail they will cause permanent, {my concern is the way we are precieved}

but that it is fine to drive a jeep off road {I drive on trail open to off-roading, puplic and private and pay all the required fees}.

There seems to be a slight flaw in your logic. {if you have questions of this sort email privately, lets not waste the forums space, Ross_Olson@hotmail.com}

I really hope that if you decide to change careers and get into land management that you will be more open minded about geocaching{I am open mined to all the puplic using puplic land, ane want to see more areas opened. Just be responsible}.

I have found it to be an enjoyable family activity{I am happy, more children need stronger families. If you are involving your family that is a good thing.}

My had enjoyed backpacking and hiking before discovering geocaching and found that it just added a little thrill to the outing. {i also do it along with other hobbies and find it enjoyable}

I also do not understand your need to list the names of the organizations that you belong to.{did you go to either one of those links? If you are an outdoors person you will find them interesting.}

This is a quote from George:

"I've also hosted 2 GeoEents and attended a 3rd. That's where I actually get to gether with other cachers, IN PERSON. Geoevents are a way of strengthening the geocaching community.

What exactly have you done?

george"

I was answereing his question, He is the one that brought it up.

it only bolsters my idea on your reason for being here. {what do think my reason for geing here is? Email privately if you want}

But since you feel it has some significance I will tell you that I have a degree in Geology and that I have actually worked in the environmental field. {Again it was george that brought it up. I am assuming he is aware of your background, you don't need to share it with me, i don't mind but Its not important}

Mary

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/track/5867_200.gif

2.6k · August 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by littlefrog:

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Studies show that MTB's have relativily the same impact as hiking

What "studies"? Also, what does "relatively the same" mean?

I'm not anti-mountain bike, but it is simply absurd to claim that a person walking along the trail does just as much damage as a mountain bike. I've seen for myself the deep muddy gouges and erosion damage that mountain bikes do to the trails in my area.

There was an extensive NZ studies years ago that analized the various forms of imipact that hiking and mountain biking had on trails. It was a few hundred pages and it's available online. It's been 5-6 years since I've looked it up but you can. The basic conclusion was that on flat trials both have minimum impact. On sloped trails bikes have a greater effect going down hill (if they skid) hikers going uphill since people naturally twist their feet when the walk.

Look for it.. It's really good.

Environmentally speaking, just having the trail is the largest part of the environmental impact. Once the ground is compacted and the vegitation is dead. After that, you're not really impacting the environment. The ground is pretty much already dead.

As for ruts. Those are due to poor trail designs and occur wether bikes ride there or not. I can show you ruts in the emigrant wilderness (where bike are not allowed) that are 2-3 feet deep.

Seriously... look for the study.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

quote:
Originally posted by littlefrog:

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Studies show that MTB's have relativily the same impact as hiking

What "studies"? Also, what does "relatively the same" mean?

I'm not anti-mountain bike, but it is simply absurd to claim that a person walking along the trail does just as much damage as a mountain bike. I've seen for myself the deep muddy gouges and erosion damage that mountain bikes do to the trails in my area.

As for ruts. Those are due to poor trail designs and occur wether bikes ride there or not.

Long narrow 2" wide and 6" deep ruts with a clear imprint of tire treads are caused by "poor trail design"? Gee, all this time I thought they were caused by mountain bikes, silly me.

August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

quote:
Originally posted by littlefrog:

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Studies show that MTB's have relativily the same impact as hiking

What "studies"? Also, what does "relatively the same" mean?

I'm not anti-mountain bike, but it is simply absurd to claim that a person walking along the trail does just as much damage as a mountain bike. I've seen for myself the deep muddy gouges and erosion damage that mountain bikes do to the trails in my area.

As for ruts. Those are due to poor trail designs and occur wether bikes ride there or not.

Long narrow 2" wide and 6" deep ruts with a clear imprint of tire treads are caused by "poor trail design"? Gee, all this time I thought they were caused by mountain bikes, silly me.

2.6k · August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by littlefrog:

Long narrow 2" wide and 6" deep ruts with a clear imprint of tire treads are caused by "poor trail design"? Gee, all this time I thought they were caused by mountain bikes, silly me.

It is silly you, a two inch wide six inch deep rut would snap a bike tire. That's not caused by the tire, it's cause by water erosion. There is a right way and a wrong way to design trails.

Did you look for and read the study or are you using your anecdotal evidence to form opinions. Far from the Scientific Method.

Step 1, identify the problem.

Step 2, research.... (this is the step you skipped.)

Step 3, form a hypothesis... (you shouldn't be here until you finshed step 2...)

So now go back to step 2.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

2.6k · August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by littlefrog:

Long narrow 2" wide and 6" deep ruts with a clear imprint of tire treads are caused by "poor trail design"? Gee, all this time I thought they were caused by mountain bikes, silly me.

It is silly you, a two inch wide six inch deep rut would snap a bike tire. That's not caused by the tire, it's cause by water erosion. There is a right way and a wrong way to design trails.

Did you look for and read the study or are you using your anecdotal evidence to form opinions. Far from the Scientific Method.

Step 1, identify the problem.

Step 2, research.... (this is the step you skipped.)

Step 3, form a hypothesis... (you shouldn't be here until you finshed step 2...)

So now go back to step 2.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

2.6k · August 25, 2002

I found the study for you....

It's linked of the middle of the page...

http://www.fellsbiker.com/advocacy/erosion.html

Maybe you can now take an informed decision.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:
Long narrow 2" wide and 6" deep ruts with a clear imprint of tire treads are caused by "poor trail design"? Gee, all this time I thought they were caused by mountain bikes, silly me.

quote:
It is silly you, a two inch wide six inch deep rut would snap a bike tire. That's not caused by the tire, it's cause by water erosion.

Oh okay. But how does the water create those tiretrack-like patterns in the bottom of the ruts?

[This message was edited by littlefrog on August 25, 2002 at 11:13 AM.]

August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:
Long narrow 2" wide and 6" deep ruts with a clear imprint of tire treads are caused by "poor trail design"? Gee, all this time I thought they were caused by mountain bikes, silly me.

quote:
It is silly you, a two inch wide six inch deep rut would snap a bike tire. That's not caused by the tire, it's cause by water erosion.

Oh okay. But how does the water create those tiretrack-like patterns in the bottom of the ruts?

[This message was edited by littlefrog on August 25, 2002 at 11:13 AM.]

2.6k · August 25, 2002

If you don't have the information to discuss this it's useless.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

38.2k · August 25, 2002

This probably should be addressed in a different forum, if not a totally different websie, but since you guys started it...

I've been maintaining trails for many years. I will read the study you provided the link to. I will also tell you that from my EXPERIENCE that MTBs have a great impact on trails. There have been trails that I maintained for years without a problem. As soon as they are discovered by mountain bikers things change drastically. Within months, erosion problems crop up where they never existed before. Illegal trails are cut, usually as shortcuts around difficult areas and downed trees and often just as links to other trails. What once were simply seasonally wet areas are now 20 ft wide mud pits. I can go on. If you want photographs, I can get them. I don't have before/after photos because before the mountain bikes started ripping up the trails, there was no need to.

And I write this as a mountain biker. As one who learned very quickly, after seeing the effects, to only ride in legal and appropriate areas.

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

2.6k · August 25, 2002

Anectodal evidence is not worth much... I can show you trails that have been primairly mountain biked for the past 10 years and they're beautiful. I can get you pictures and everything.

When I brought up mountain biking it was in reference to trail closure. Read the study I mentioned. It's extensive and unbiased and does't rely on anecdotal evidence.

For every mtber that cuts a trail there are a dozen hikers cutting trails somewhere else. Put if you want to talk about REAL trail damage lets talk about horses. But horse owners are politically more powerful than MTBer's so they get by and we get blamed.

This thread needs to be closed, it's too far off track, pun intended.

I'm done replying, I think you'll find the study enlightening. I'm NOT saying that MTB don't have an impact, it's just as a whole, it's similar in scale to hiking.

george

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

And I write this as a mountain biker. As one who learned very quickly, after seeing the effects, to only ride in legal and appropriate areas.

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

August 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

That's not caused by the tire, it's cause by water erosion.

LOL, that reminds me of the time Ronald Reagan claimed that air pollution isn't caused by car and industrial emissions at all, it's those nasty trees that are doing it.

Screwing it up for everybody!!!

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment