New Photo goal Waymarking for geodesafios... Mission Impossible!

February 12, 2023

Hi everybody!

There is a community of geocachers in Spain called "geodesafios". We have a website, geodesafios.es, in which we are offered a series of monthly challenges related to geocaching. For example, attending an event, hiding a cache, getting an FTF, etc.

Every time a geocacher achieves one of these challenges, they receive a souvenir (as on the geocaching.com page).

Our idea for a Waymarking photo log was for people to take a photo with the souvenirs they were getting, so we created a Waymarking in the Photo log category for it.

At first, it was declined by these two votes:

[nay] Not really what we expect for
[nay] I don't understand it. The website doesn't seem to have a registration option. It seems like this is only for funneling people to their website.

We couldn't find any way to reply to these comments, so we added some comments to the previous Waymarking and resubmitted it. These were our comments, responding to previous votes:

We don't know what exactly you were expecting... Could you give more details?
For those who do not understand, we explain it with more details:
Geodesafios are a series of challenges that are raised to the geocaching community.
The website does not require registration. To achieve a geochallenge, it is only necessary to fill in a form and, automatically, the souvenir is assigned to the player (as in geocaching).
The web does not have ads, and we don't sell anything. There are also no premium members. We do not obtain any type of benefit, so we do not need funneling anyone to our website. Everyone is welcome, but we don't need to attract anyone else.

The Waymarking was declined again. The reason was:

I have had a good look around your site, and while it appears to be a worthy challenge, this waymark does NOT meet guidelines for inclusion in this category.

This category specifically requires you to take a photo of yourself DOING something, not achieving something. Simply taking a photo does not qualify. Neither does fulfilling any sort of 'challenge.'

Have a read of the category's description at:
https://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=da87aa6c-271c-4b66-8328-a837ccb082e3&exp=True

"This category is NOT about finding things at all, at least not ones that are static. It is about ACTIONS! We want to see people doing crazy fun things. We want to see people doing something specific but with an item that is only at a spot for a brief period of time."

As it stands, this type of 'challenge' might qualify for inclusion in other waymark categories! Please have a look around the category list for suitable candidates.

We answered again:

I got confused by other waymarks, without people DOING something, or with people achieving something, or simply taking a photo. Here are some examples:

We read the category description again, and saw that the group that manages the category was accepting members, and out of curiosity, we jumped in. We are sorry, but we can't find how to get out..

The Waymarking was declined again with this comment:

Initial vote call comment:It appears that this person has joined this category in order to force through their way mark that does not conform. I have explain to them how and why the way Marc does not conform, but they seem to either not understand or just ignoring. Please have a look, discuss amongst yourselves and rule accordingly. And now back to your regularly scheduled program.
Vote comments:
[nay] Try to understand what we expect for
[nay] The challenge portion of this submission has nothing to do with the category goals. Simply taking a photo of yourself sitting there is not sufficient for this category, but might be for others.

We understand the rules, but we don't understand why the category officers are so strict with our waymark and not with all the previous ones, in which it is accepted, to just sit down and take a picture.
In our waymark you have to do an action to achieve a souvenir and we want to show those souvenirs in this waymark. Nothing else.

Don't worry, we won't be submitting the waymark for review again. We just wanted to open this thread to show how closed this Waymarking review and approval system is. We verified that, if you want to do something, but you don't have friends in the Waymarking community, you have many closed doors...

Of course, the geodesafios community is open to everyone and anyone is welcome.

See you doing geocaching!!

February 12, 2023

I tried many times to get a photo goal waymark but was blocked by their strict reviewing. Even 'Go on a safari' and 'place a limb across a mayor line of Earth' (in my case the Equator) were rejected. It is a hard category to grade so the reviewers make the best out of what they can. But it seems a bit random like you and me experienced. This has been commented on before. Just try again with a different idea and eventually you will succeed (in my case with https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/wm15YRG_Interesting_Interviews_on_TV ).

February 12, 2023

@BeayPepe

Read this discussion, it will help you :

The real impossible mission is to manage this category when someone does not understand

But to understand you have to be more experienced about Waymarking and with only 5 waymarks approved, it's not enough

Taking old approved waymarks examples to try to convice, it's a mistake, i did also this mistake at the beginning, reviewers change, category description changes and we use to grandfather old waymarks even if they do not comply new requirements

Edited February 12, 2023 by Alfouine
.

February 12, 2023

Previously, we were suggested to read the forums and see other waymarks to get inspired and get ideas to create one by ourselves.
Now, you tell us that relying on old waymarks is not right.
You also tell us that, to have experience, it is not enough to have 5 published waymarks and that, to get them published, we need more. But if our waymarks are not getting published, it is impossible for us to achieve it.
We understand less and less all this...

11.2k · February 12, 2023

2 hours ago, BeayPepe said:

The Waymarking was declined again. The reason was:

I have had a good look around your site, and while it appears to be a worthy challenge, this waymark does NOT meet guidelines for inclusion in this category.

This category specifically requires you to take a photo of yourself DOING something, not achieving something. Simply taking a photo does not qualify

Baloney.

Just look at the waymarks approved in this category, and it is clear this is not followed.

February 12, 2023

7 hours ago, BeayPepe said:

Previously, we were suggested to read the forums and see other waymarks to get inspired and get ideas to create one by ourselves.
Now, you tell us that relying on old waymarks is not right.
You also tell us that, to have experience, it is not enough to have 5 published waymarks and that, to get them published, we need more. But if our waymarks are not getting published, it is impossible for us to achieve it.
We understand less and less all this...

Dit you take time to read all this discussion ?

February 12, 2023

2 hours ago, Alfouine said:

Dit you take time to read all this discussion ?

Yes I have readed it.

It has helped me to see that this category is closed to new additions.

I see that there are more than 1000 categories, and each one has its own particularities. You have made me want to stop making waymarks. Right now, I have one awaiting publish, and if it does, it will be the last one I make. If it's not published, well, I don't care either. thank you.

11.2k · February 12, 2023

11 hours ago, BeayPepe said:

The Waymarking was declined again with this comment:

Initial vote call comment:It appears that this person has joined this category in order to force through their way mark that does not conform.

That is an unfair assumption on the part of the officers.

February 12, 2023

2 hours ago, BeayPepe said:

Yes I have readed it.

It has helped me to see that this category is closed to new additions.

I see that there are more than 1000 categories, and each one has its own particularities. You have made me want to stop making waymarks. Right now, I have one awaiting publish, and if it does, it will be the last one I make. If it's not published, well, I don't care either. thank you.

I have made nothing, if you decide to stop Waymarking, it's your own decision

If you do not have times to understand how it works and if you are upset each time you have a waymark declined, it will not be a pleasure to play Waymarking especially at the beginning but the most important it's to have fun and it's possible to have fun, it's just a question of state of mind.

February 13, 2023

Please don't quit the game! It is hard to learn but it is so worth it. The category photo goals is very difficult to get a waymark in. There are many more beginner-friendly categories. We need active new waymarkers like yourself!

February 13, 2023

Beaypepe, don't be discouraged.

I signed up on May 5, 2017 and created my first WM. Then I continued and I was denied in various categories. Between some difficult categories, others that didn't fit, and some inpatient reviewer, I gave up on the game. They also had a little problem with someone on the forum who even had a blacklist of categories...

Then I got active again in July 2020 and did everything until today.

Yes, it's frustrating and there are arbitrary categories and reviewers, but it's important to keep going and have fun. however, there are many reviewers and categories that are worthwhile, nice, empathetic, kind, always willing to help and with other beautiful qualities with which you will never have a problem; and above all... I am very close to help you. But it's important to move on and have fun.

DON'T LET IT

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ariberna

February 13, 2023

And with regard to this comment: "But to understand you have to have more experience in Waymarking and with only 5 approved waymarks it is not enough" there are reviewers with very few WMs created and they are reviewers, as well as others who have 2,000 or 3,000 published and very few visited, so the only 5 WMs left over from the forum and fall alone,

A little empathy will come in handy and if someone doesn't have patience they should be doing something else.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ariberna

February 13, 2023

And what also surprises me is this comment: "It appears that this person has joined this category in order to force through their way mark that does not conform." I did not know that entering a category forced a publication. I'll have to go into more and see if it works.

That leads me to think that was how they acted in the past.

As we say in Spain "piensa el ladrón que todos son de su condición" this phrase say that "the thief thinks that everyone is like him"

February 13, 2023

We are not going to leave Waymarking. We will continue logging those that we find. Well, not all of them, around us there are thousands!!!
What we are going to do is stop creating them.

In the short time we've been at it, we've already been accused of trying to make a business of proposing a category of giant-letter city names. Do business with photos of city names? That's what the McDonalds or Pizza Hut and many others categories are for...😂😂😂😂😂

We were also accused of running a dishonest campaign to get votes in that category.
All the information here: City names in giant letters

We were also accused of trying to waymark the geodesafios website to attract people to it. It is a page that does not have ads or requires payments or gives us any benefit.

And now we are being accused of joining a group (that was accepting members) to force I don't know what...

We are able to see that we are not wanted here...

What we are realizing is that a few people have Waymarking done to their liking and they don't like it at all when new people come to do things and that is precisely how all this does not evolve and stagnate, making it boring.

We are not here to discuss with anyone. We're here to have fun, and the way this works, we're not having fun...

And, while we're at it, We are going to leave you with a little reflexion about this game:
It is supposed that "Waymarking is a way to mark unique locations on the planet and give them a voice" (extracted from your FAQs)
There are waymarks that simply take you to a wikipedia entry or a blog or a newspaper article location (unique locations?). There are waymarks in pharmacies, which are dozens in any city. Why are they unique locations? The same could be said of churches, pizzerias, burgers...
We have found waymarks created more than 10 years ago in which, today, they only have our visit. I guess this means that this game has not demand.
We are also very surprised by the fact that Waymarking takes you to an interesting place, but in that place there is no one waymark, there are plenty. For example, the Statue of Liberty, we think, has over 100 waymarks. It is impossible to stop to read each one of them.
As an idea, Waymarking seems very interesting and very entertaining, but the fun is running out everywhere...

Edited February 13, 2023 by BeayPepe
arrange a hyperlink

February 13, 2023

As we like to take things with humor, we leave you a link to a geodesafio that we have created: https://geodesafios.es/geodesafio-express-crear-un-Waymarking/

We hope you enjoy it!

1.6k · February 14, 2023

15 hours ago, BeayPepe said:

As we like to take things with humor, we leave you a link to a geodesafio that we have created: https://geodesafios.es/geodesafio-express-crear-un-Waymarking/

We hope you enjoy it!

As the creator and infrequent participant in the category I can assure you that for this suggestion I really tried to understand how the website you offered worked. Perhaps it was a language barrier on my part.

The "Photo Goals" category is reportedly one of the most difficult to understand according to many people. And perhaps my inability to adequately express the intention is to blame, or it could be others trying to suggest ideas that they believe match but the officers do not agree.

Some key points from the above comments are worth exploring. Waymarking just like Geocaching uses the premise that previously accepted listings do not indicate that the same will happen. It is more accurate to say that the guidelines are updated from time to time. Submissions are evaluated using the current guidelines, not those of the past. In short, we learn and adapt so that we improve the game and not continue to accept things that perhaps should not have been accepted. Isn't that how life works? Even things that we okay, when we find better ways we stop using the old ways.

What was the point of the Photo Goal that you submitted? I honestly couldn't figure it out. I know there was an aspect of going to your website. Was the hope to attract people to your website? Was it for others to participate in the activities that are hosted on that website? The bigger question still remains of "What is the goal that a Waymarker is supposed to be doing?"

As an example, today there is a Photo Goal in for review where you need to take a photo of what you see through a microscope and describe it. Personally I love that. It is clear and easy to understand, it can be done anywhere and is about doing something and more importantly not something mundane. Also today there was a submission which I will describe using a different target... take a selfie at this specific post office. Clearly that isn't what we are looking for. The location is a single point, there is no "doing" action.

DOING is a huge aspect of the Photo Goals category. People should be "statically animated" like acting out an activity.

Examples:

- Good: Making an Italian dinner dressed up in chef's attire with a candlelit formal table table for two in the background.

- Bad: A pot of Mac and Cheese on a stove top

- Good: Build a house of cards of at least three levels.

- Bad: Take a photo of yourself playing poker.

February 14, 2023

We weren't going to say anything about the new waymark "Take a picture of what you see under a microscope - Ourense, Galicia, España", but now that you mention it... We don't understand what ACTION can be seen in those photos, or what the person is DOING in the photo (there are no people in the photo).

We assume that it is also a language barrier, which we are not able to overcome.

Worst of all, is that now we consider it a personal challenge and we will continue trying to publish a waymark in this category. We will try to be creative and see if we succeed!

We hope we don't bother anyone with this.

11.2k · February 14, 2023

On 2/14/2023 at 8:03 AM, The Blue Quasar said:

The "Photo Goals" category is reportedly one of the most difficult to understand according to many people. And perhaps my inability to adequately express the intention is to blame, or it could be others trying to suggest ideas that they believe match but the officers do not agree.

How's this for a head scratcher?

I submitted a waymark to this category that exactly matched one of the suggestions in the description. Yet when it went to group vote, as all waymarks in this category do (I was told), not all officers approved the idea.

*Edit: It appears that this was not so in the beginning, as some waymarks are "approved", some "successful" and some "declined". Approved indicates to me that it was not sent to vote, but I'm not sure. And an officer could even approve his/her own photo goal waymark. It was easier way back then!

Edited February 18, 2023 by Max and 99

February 14, 2023

6 hours ago, T0SHEA said:

I joined the group to look at the past history, and it appears that most are put to vote and that determines if it is accepted or not.

Is this the case: are submissions put to a vote and that determines if it is accepted or not?

Yes in this category, we call for a vote for all submissions, most of times we share the same point of view but sometimes not, there is a part of subjectivity

And we can have multiple votes because we have a lot of multiple submissions for the same waymark

1.6k · February 15, 2023

19 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I submitted a waymark to this category that exactly matched one of the suggestions in the description. Yet when it went to group vote, as all waymarks in this category do (I was told), not all officers approved the idea.

Can you provide a link to the Waymark you are mentioning? As officers in the group, we are not perfect and only hope to improve from learning as much as we hope hopeful participants also learn.

In the past few days we have had several new submissions that are only attainable at a fixed, single point of latitude/longitude. These will never pass review. To give an example "Capture the CN Tower in an OK symbol." The CN Tower is a fixed point object, hence a decline vote would be cast.

1.6k · February 15, 2023

7 minutes ago, T0SHEA said:

Would you consider a rewrite?

Always.

7 minutes ago, T0SHEA said:

Perhaps start a new topic in Recruiting and Category Proposals so others can discuss a possible solution.

This is a great suggestion. I will do that now. Please give me a few minutes to author that.

February 15, 2023

We have to tell you that we love to see how our comments have ended very well:
- A waymark published in the "Photo Goals" category
- The purpose of the category creator to clarify the category
Thank you!

February 15, 2023

I agree with what was said by beaypepe

1.6k · February 16, 2023

This may apply to other or maybe all category groups, and being honest my knowledge on this stuff is very rusty.

When a Waymark is submitted there are three options for the officers to choose from

- Accept

- Deny

- Vote

The first two are pretty straight forward and obvious. It's the third option, VOTE, that I am referring to.

Since the officers of Photo Goals are supposed to ALWAYS send submissions to a Vote, what happens next?

- What if only one officer casts a vote and then a set amount of time goes by? Does that vote become the deciding one?

- What if two officers vote but each vote differently? What happens in the case of a tie?

I'm asking because I am looking over the history of voting, noticing some interesting results and trying to draw connections between voting and not voting.

11.2k · February 17, 2023

On 2/15/2023 at 7:39 AM, The Blue Quasar said:

Can you provide a link to the Waymark you are mentioning? As officers in the group, we are not perfect and only hope to improve from learning as much as we hope hopeful participants also learn.

Vote comments:

[nay] Their is action but their is nothing about a location that would lead one to ride a unicycle.

[yea] Definitely a yes for me on this one!

[yea] Since this is something that would take some learning, timing and skill for the inexperienced I think this is suitable.

[nay] Don't think this works as it requires special skills.

[yea] Isn't this one of the examples given as a possible waymark?

1.6k · February 17, 2023

The response to the quoted section does not appear to match

Quote

Posted 9 hours ago

Quote

On 2/15/2023 at 8:39 AM, The Blue Quasar said:

Can you provide a link to the Waymark you are mentioning? As officers in the group, we are not perfect and only hope to improve from learning as much as we hope hopeful participants also learn

.

Vote comments:

[nay] Their is action but their is nothing about a location that would lead one to ride a unicycle.

[yea] Definitely a yes for me on this one!

[yea] Since this is something that would take some learning, timing and skill for the inexperienced I think this is suitable.

[nay] Don't think this works as it requires special skills.

[yea] Isn't this one of the examples given as a possible waymark?

These 'vote comments' do not provide context since they do not reference something specific as requested. It is unclear what you are trying to demonstrate.

New Photo goal Waymarking for geodesafios... Mission Impossible!

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