Abandoned caches

[+joedohn]

Is anybody here interested in joining me in starting and maintaining a continuing forum topic on handling abandoned caches in our region? Maybe establish some guidelines and then act on them to reduce the problem of cache litter?

 

I would just beg that this be done in as civil and non-judgmental a way as possible.

 

Does this seem worthwhile to you?

[+Navdog]

Probably a good idea. After seeing a recent post from Jeremy where he mentioned that he receives 100 e-mails a day, he may welcome some type of local/regional support in dealing with abandoned caches. Local cachers would also have more intimate knowledge of these caches and the situation.

 

The adventures of Navdog, Justdog, and Otterpup

[+MattandLaura]

extremely worthwild idea. Nothing is going to kill this sport quicker than people leaving abandoned caches(otherwise garbage) laying around. I am willing to help maintain and moderate a forum to this cause

 

[+Rye_and_Leigh]

Great idea! I'm curious what the geographic coverage of your proposed forum would be. If it includes my area, I'm also interested in helping out.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

I've had other cachers take care of my long distance caches in the past. I've taken care of caches here in the Rogue Valley that were placed by out of towners. If there is a forum or site that would allow us to easily contact each other I'll participate.

 

We can help to maintain caches in our own area easily enough. If one gets plundered it is easy enough to move it a bit and allow the owner to place the new coordinates on the page.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

[+MattandLaura]

we could use http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NWGeocaching/

 

It isn't being used for anything

 

[+joedohn]

Rye_and_Leigh, The region would include Alaska, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming. It's how the Northwest is grouped in these forums.

 

As a basic outline to start the discussion, how does this look...

 

1. A cacher lists (here) a cache they think is abandoned and in need of maintenance.

 

2. Others weigh in with their opinions. Maybe use the poll feature.

 

3. The cache appears abandoned by general agreement. The group, or a volunteer, sends an email to the owner.

If the owner responds then o.k. If not, and the owner appears to have become inactive, then a log is posted on the web page and the cache retrieved and archived (or cleaned up or adopted) by volunteers.

 

4. If no consensus is reached on whether a cache is abandoned then no action is taken. Over time it will probably become more apparent.

 

I think the key points to this process are:

a) That it be done as a group to lessen the likelihood of personal disagreement/conflict

We avoid using this process as a dumping ground for our frustrations over other people's neglect of their caches.

c) We deal as quickly as possible with abandoned caches. If the cache is looking abandoned then chances are it's been out littering the landscape for a long time already. I don't believe in waiting extended periods for a response from the cache owner before acting on an abandoned looking cache. To me a few weeks is plenty. Maybe more, maybe less, as the group decides.

d) Abandoned caches are retrieved before they are archived to prevent them from being forgotten about.

 

As I was thinking about all this it occurred to me there may not be many abandoned caches out there. I sure hope there aren't.

However, regardless of the size of the problem, it will be good for us to have a process to point to when asked how we deal with caches left in the wild and forgotten about.

 

o.k., criticisms, suggestions, idea's???

 

'Edited to incorporate suggestions by Seattle Seekers'

 

[This message was edited by joedohn on May 25, 2002 at 09:50 PM.]

[NW Runner]

I think its a good idea, and as long as were on the subject this one is really realllly buging me.

Steilacoom cach

[+joedohn]

Wutacach, thanks for the heads up. It looks like a candidate. I think we should let this process percolate for a day or two, get other people's idea's and refinements and then maybe use the cache you suggested for the trial run. Here's the link for easy viewing Steilacoom Stash

[+Seattle Seekers]

These are all excellent idea's. However, to avoid conflict and to respect cache owners, I think it would be a good idea to reverse steps #3 and #3a. The owner should be contacted first (before the cache is retrieved) Send him an email and give him a week or two to respond. If he does not respond after a given period of time then retrieve the cache. There could be several reasons why he hasnt been maintaining his cache. If his cache is snatched without giving him/her a chance to do the right thing, then it could and probably would make him feel ganged up on, and would probably sour them to our sport. I've seen this happen alot.

[+Seattle Seekers]

These are all excellent idea's. However, to avoid conflict and to respect cache owners, I think it would be a good idea to reverse steps #3 and #3a. The owner should be contacted first (before the cache is retrieved) Send him an email and give him a week or two to respond. If he does not respond after a given period of time then retrieve the cache. There could be several reasons why he hasnt been maintaining his cache. If his cache is snatched without giving him/her a chance to do the right thing, then it could and probably would make him feel ganged up on, and would probably sour them to our sport. I've seen this happen alot.

[+joedohn]

Yea, Seattle Seekers, I think you're right. I was trying to split the obviously most offending abandoned caches from the less obvious, but the distinction isn't really necessary is it?

 

I agree with you all owners should be contacted in advance regardless. This will hopefully avoid offense as you point out, and also keep this more streamlined.

[+Byron & Anne]

I'm wondering what constitutes an abandoned cache, other than a group of people declaring it such. I know of caches that are active, that is cachers find and log, but the owner doesn't appear to be anywhere in sight. These caches are therfore abandoned, by definition. Does this mean that a self appointed committee should remove them?

 

I would think that an "abandoned" cache should be very carefully defined.

 

Just my random thoughts.

 

Byron

[+joedohn]

Byron and Anne, At the least, an abandoned cache would be a problem cache. The kind that gets logged repeatedly that it needs maintenance with never a response from the owner. Oddly enough, Dave Ulmer's first cache would have been a perfect example of this. People were finding odd bits of it strewn about the cache site long after it had ceased to be a functioning cache.

 

Mostly, I think this process should be available so that cachers can get support and agreement that a cache they've logged needs more management than it's getting.

 

I would expect that an abandoned cache forum would be used infrequently. Most cachers (I believe) come down on the side of non-interference.

 

However, having a ready tool to deal with problem caches will help promote the idea that they should be dealt with and not left to slowly turn into litter.

 

[This message was edited by joedohn on May 25, 2002 at 07:00 AM.]

[+LindaLu]

While I think something should be done about caches where the owner never responds to emails, I do not think any person or group should appoint themselves the "cache Police" and take out other people's caches without asking their permission. As far as I can tell, caches "belong" to their cache owners.

 

I think a more constructive approach is to have people volunteer to be "investigators". When people complain to Jeremy et al. about abandoned caches, they can forward the message to the regional investigators who can follow up in trying to contact the person. If they do not respond in a timely manner, then the Jeremy's crew can archive the cache, and if necessary, take other action as it regards the website.

 

Cache owners are responsible to respond to correspondence regarding their caches, as well as maintaining the actual cache.

 

Remember, too, that just because people have a hard time finding a cache does not mean that the cache isn't there.

 

But there's no excuse for not responding to people's inquiries.

 

LindaLu

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

I had 3 in a row complain that one of my caches was gone. Since then over 20 have had no problems locating it.

 

I honestly don't really think this is all that big a problem, at least around here it isn't.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

[+MattandLaura]

I disagree we should let Jeremy crew take care of somthing that is local. That would just add more time and resources to his already busy schedule. I believe the intent of this is to get caches that are either forgotten about or just left without care. Most likely one would be able to get a hold of the cache owner in a reasonable amount of time. Example there was a cache down south(from Oregon) nobody found for a year. The people still e-mailed them and found out it was still there and located the cache. Let's say nobody responded to the e-mail after a month. Do we just leave the cache there to litter? There is already a small debate going on the the caches should be considered littering and I do not wish to add fuel to that debate and get banned from certain areas.

 

[+joedohn]

Lazyboy etc. It would never occur to me to think any of your caches were abandoned no matter how many times they went unfound. You're too seasoned and responsible a cacher. I worry about the short-term cacher with short term interest in the activity. The kind that place a cache or two and then forget about them. Even then, the point of all this is to deal with problem (litter) caches only. If a cache is abandoned by it's owner and is functioning fine then no problem exists. Sooner or later though, the vast majority of caches forgotten by their original owners will become litter or stolen because we all know that caches seldom improve with age. Logically also, caches that can't be found can't really be problems because nobody is going to know what kind of shape they're in. This whole idea is to address the caches that are crap and nobody is doing anything about it.

 

LindaLu, what I've proposed is establishing a forum where cachers can ask others if a cache is in danger of becoming litter and should be removed or revived. The community-oriented basis of this argues against your concept of the 'cache police'. It would be entirely volunteer driven.

 

In all cases (as I agreed earlier with Seattle Seekers) the cache owner needs prior notification. Action by the local caching community would only be needed if the owner were absent or didn't care to follow up on their maintenance responsibilities.

 

I strongly agree with MattandLaura and Navdog that this should be a local effort. Complaints about cache condition will be more readily responded to here amongst ourselves long before waiting for action through Jeremy. All we need is volunteers to contact the owner and then volunteers to care for the cache (if the owner fails to respond).

 

I agree with Lazyboy that the problem may be small. I hope it is. Yet, I'm very uncomfortable participating in an activity with a highly organized structure for unlimited expansion but little structure for care and maintenance.

 

Besides the need for picking up our litter, having a regular forum on abandoned caches will help raise the visibility level of the need for cache maintenance for new participants.

[+Logscaler and Red]

Well, As I and Red seem to travel around a little bit, We would be willing to jump into this mix if you think we might fit in. And as for abandoned caches, I would also like to throw another thought into this arena. What about people who are just traveling through the area - knowing full well that they will not ever be back and they will not be able to maintain a cache - and drop off cheeesy little things and expect the locals to look after the caches? Let me know if I and Red can be of use or help.

[NW Runner]

If you do need help please count me in.

[+joedohn]

Hi Wutacach, Take a look at the thread on requesting 'archival of cache' Jeremy just began in the general section. I think it addresses part of the problem.

[NW Runner]

That should work!

[NW Runner]

That should work!