Religious Buildings Multifarious

[+T0SHEA]

The Religious Buildings Multifarious WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY RELIGIOUS BUILDING COVERED BY AN EXISTING CATEGORY.

 

To further the possibility of a new category

 

This idea of a general (catch-all) for religious buildings was debated on this post by OP: pstidsen Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:33 AM

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=309485&st=0&p=5233403&hl=mormon&fromsearch=1entry5233403

 

The following are existing groups about a variety of church ideas.

 

Church Mice: Description: It is helpful to be able to locate a church in an unfamiliar area. This group will manage the generic "churches" category.

 

Danish Churches Worldwide: Description: Danske Kirker/Danish Churches

 

Historical Churches Near Springfield Missouri: Description: These waymarks are of Beautifully designed churches in and Around the Springfield Missouri area.

 

Home Churches: Description:Are you tired of big churches? do you go to a church and want to list it here join this group we will be managing a group called home churches

 

LDS Church History Markers :Description: This group is to manage a catagory of Church History Markers around the world for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

Mormon History: Description: The purpose of this group is to create and manage a category devoted to sites significant to the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also know as "Mormons"

 

Norwegian churches: Description:To document norwegian churches locaded within Norway In ouer country there are many beatyful churches that is well wourth takeing a closer look at.

 

Store churches: Description: This group is to manage the storefront churches category.

 

Unitarian Univeralists: Description: Group to approve Unitarian, Universalist and UU churches, and buildings that were constructed for that purpose, whether they still serve that purpose or not.

 

Forum Post: New Category Idea - Sikh Temples

 

Forum Post: Mormon Meetinghouses

 

Forum Post: Unitarian Universalist Churches

 

...and all those non denominational religious buildings.

Edited October 6, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+BruceS]

In general I support the idea of the category however it is not nearly as clear cut as the dated multifarious category. A category based on th exclusion categories can causes problems for both submitters and reviewers, ie. is it a car part sculpture or not.

 

Probably the hardest thing would be for the officers and submitters to know if a building could already be submitted an existing category. Is the building over 100 years? Is it located in the country? What if it has a cornerstone or a dated plaque? What if it has a Wikipedia article or is listed in American Guide? What if it is listed on the National Register of Historic Places (or that specific country's register that has a category) or even more nebulous is a contributing building in a historic district?

 

Or would it the restriction be that it not be able to be listed in one of the existing Religious Building categories as opposed to any category. This would simplify it some as only the denomination along with whether it could be listed in the Old Church or Country Church categories.

 

Other considerations would include will it only include only buildings where services are held or would it be all church owned properties, ie church camps, office buildings where denominations have offices? How about chapels in airports/hospitals, what photos would be required for these and what location.

[+T0SHEA]

Hello BruceS, You have brought up some valid points.

 

My only intention here was to open a conversation. The discussion of a new category Religious Buildings Multifarious needs to continue to determine if this is a workable idea and how to manage it.

 

I do not think cross posting can be excluded/avoided as long as the religious building denomination can not be submitted in another religious building categories.

 

Most of which are listed under Religious Buildings subcategory.

 

That said (example) if a country church is one that would NOT go in one of the denominational churches then it would fit here.

(example) stone artifacts from a church that would NOT go in one of the denominational churches then it would fit here.

 

and so on...steeples, bell towers, etc.

 

BruceS Quote: "Other considerations would include will it only include only buildings where services are held or would it be all church owned properties, ie church camps, office buildings where denominations have offices? How about chapels in airports/hospitals, what photos would be required for these and what location."

 

All valid points. For now let us JUST consider only buildings where services are held at least once a month or with some regularity.

 

The other possibilities are just to broad.

 

Your input is important, now is the time to voice them.

[+Bear and Ragged]

Interesting suggestion.

 

As Leader and officer in the Methodist Church catagory, just a thought...

 

Methodist Churches will accept former Methodist Churches. ie, those that are no longer used by Methodists for services.

 

Bit of a hypothetical question.

The category has accepted a former Methodist Church that is now used by another relegious group.

IF that relegious group has no category for their church/building, in theory the church could be accepted into the new category.

 

But. It could then be added to the Methodist Church as a former Methodist Church.

 

How would you go about this? (Just something to consider )

[+elyob]

Thanks to the comments, I now have a better understanding of why we don't already have a category for religious buildings multifarious. Even if the category description was completely clear, I would not want the reviewer workload.

[+T0SHEA]

 

Bit of a hypothetical question.

The category has accepted a former Methodist Church that is now used by another relegious group.

IF that relegious group has no category for their church/building, in theory the church could be accepted into the new category.

 

But. It could then be added to the Methodist Church as a former Methodist Church.

 

Given that our hypothetical former Methodist church is a part of the history and heritage of the Methodist Church, I would hope that it would be allowed to be cross posted to Methodist, as well as our presently hypothetical Religious Buildings Multifarious.

 

I guess my case would be one of posting a church that has not yet been received into either category. The end result, hopefully, would be the same, though.

 

K.

[+T0SHEA]

Thanks to the comments, I now have a better understanding of why we don't already have a category for religious buildings multifarious. Even if the category description was completely clear, I would not want the reviewer workload.

 

Look at it this way: if it fits in none of the 21 present denominational categories (or any categories developed in the future) and holds somewhat regular services, then it goes here. Disregard all the other possibilities, such as CNHP, NRHP, country church, mega church, etc. These are just cross posting opportunities. That's essentially what B. was trying to convey.

 

K.

Edited October 7, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+elyob]

...and then a building for worship services versus a building for other services could be a variable?

Edited October 6, 2016 by elyob

[+T0SHEA]

...and then a building for worship services versus a building for other services could be a variable?

 

elyob, I appreciate your comments, however I think I have missed what you mean "for other services"

 

Please clarify what you think distinguishes a worship service versus other services?

[+ripraff]

Some of these points seem to be looking for trouble. The exclusion would be for named brand named churches with a list. Some of the other categories would be fine, country church etc. If you can post a Methodist church in them then you could cross post brand-x in them.

The other church categories don't have a problem with a lot of the things brought up. A list of brand name religions and whether they accept former churches would be an easy list. If it fits those, then it doesn't fit brand-x. If a new brand is created, brand-x postings can be grandfathered, but new ones not accepted. Unitarians could be brand-x until Unitarian Church group is created.

 

We are not the IRS, they don't have to fit 15 criteria to be a religion. Have a question, why do you think this is a church? "If it walks like a duck"..."I know it when I see it." Some judgement may be needed, rulings of the managers as in all cases final.

 

You can create that sneaky question, does this fit a,b,c, and if the click yes it gets rejected.

 

Universalists, dedicated storefront (if not Baptist etc.), Mormon, Sikh, Community Church, all good. home, no, not a separate building.

 

Churches, not camps, etc. just like regular brands.

Edited October 6, 2016 by ripraff

[+BruceS]

Some of these points seem to be looking for trouble. The exclusion would be for named brand named churches with a list. Some of the other categories would be fine, country church etc.

 

I would say they are not looking for trouble but rather trying to avoid trouble. I made my comments because the opening post had bolded any category, I was making my points so that the exclusion would spelled out much as you have. As most know I am all for cross posting.

 

My bringing up camps/offices etc. was again to better define what a "religious buildings" means. After reviewing some 20,000 - 30,000 waymarks over the years I have found clean definitions are best as leaving a lot of grey areas just leads to problems.

[+elyob]

Religious buildings for non-worship services might be administrative headquarters, homes for wayward persons, rehab centres, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, pastoral residences, camp buildings (as previously mentioned), etc.

 

I do like the logic that we don't usually accept such buildings in the other religious buildings categories so let's stick with places of worship only.

[+T0SHEA]

Step One:

 

What (generic) terminology is used for a religions building worldwide?

 

Let us work on a definition that is clear and precise.

(REMEMBER this is not a denominational distinction. Example: A synagogue is a Jewish house of prayer.)

 

Please reply to this post so we can keep all definitions in one place.

 

What is a Religious Building?

 

Place of worship, Church, House of God, House of Prayer, Ministry

Edited October 7, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+T0SHEA]

Step Two:

 

What will be accepted into Religious Building Multifarious category? (As defined in Step One) Example: Place of worship

 

No Religious Building accepted into the category if it can be approved into a religious denominational category, as follows:

 

Religious Buildings (Existing Categories)

Anglican and Episcopal, Assembly of God, Baptist, Buddhist Temples and Public Shrines, Church of Christ Scientist, Church of the Nazarene, Continental Reformed and Congregational Church, Hindu Temples, Kingdom Halls of Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutheran, Methodist, Mormon Temples, Mosques, New Apostolic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Quaker Meeting Houses ,Roman Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Synagogues, Wesleyan or other denominational religious building category I may have overlooked.

 

What will be accepted? Only places of worship that have a religious gathering of people where a religious service is conducted with some regularity (church service) and cannot be submitted in one of the above religious denominational categories.

 

What do you think about allowing Church of Scientology? (L. Ron Hubbard)

 

What denominational places of worship (Religious Buildings) that are not covered in one of the existing categories?

 

Please add your suggestions to this post as to keep them all together.

 

Religious Building Multifarious:

 

Non-Denominational Churches

Mormon Churches (Not Temples)

Community Churches

[+T0SHEA]

Need to clarify: religious service is conducted with some regularity

 

I do not think as an example: Annual Sunrise Service on Easter Morning at a stated location should be allowed.

 

These maybe conducted by one of the exiting categories. Hopefully cleared that up.

[+ripraff]

We could qualify buildings to avoid sunrise services (often held outdoors). The category would be under Religious Buildings.

 

Included:

Unitarians

Spiritualists

Non-Denominational Churches

Mormon Churches (Not Temples)

Community Churches

Sikh temples

We should probably accept Scientologists and other cult types to avoid having to discriminate authentic/inauthentic. Many current denominations were considered fringe at one time.

What world religions do we not have that would have buildings for worship?

 

We should probably exclude Waychapels, Abbeys-etc., Megachurches, since they have their own category. You could consider cross-listing, but I wouldn't think so.

Cross listing allowed for categories such as Country churches, this old church, medieval church, stone church artifacts, National Historic Places.

 

Also accept named denominations IF the existing category excludes former and the church is no longer that brand.

Edited October 7, 2016 by ripraff

[+BruceS]

Need to clarify: religious service is conducted with some regularity

 

I do not think as an example: Annual Sunrise Service on Easter Morning at a stated location should be allowed.

 

These maybe conducted by one of the exiting categories. Hopefully cleared that up.

 

Thinking back to some of the less active churches I have waymarked and I would think monthly or seasonally. I have seen many small town/country churches where they only held services monthly. I have seen a few where they only had services in the summer or winter due to lack of heat or air conditioning, these were usually a second usually older building and rest of the year services were elsewhere. I agree the location where only one service being conducted should not be allowed.

 

Now with that being said, this would mean that historic but no longer used would be excluded, which is ok with me, though there may be a way to word it so these could be included.

[+ripraff]

Could Waychapels be expanded to include 'chapels in airports/hospitals' since way chapels "have traditionally served as a respite for travelers."

 

Charity could add a subcategory for some of the other things like soup kitchens mentioned.

[+ripraff]

Categories that explicitly say current are Church of the Nazarene, Assembly of God and Wesleyan. Most are explicitly saying current and former, including ruins. A few don't mention it either way, Orthodox, Buddhist, we could have them clarify.

[+T0SHEA]

Could Waychapels be expanded to include 'chapels in airports/hospitals' since way chapels "have traditionally served as a respite for travelers."

 

Charity could add a subcategory for some of the other things like soup kitchens mentioned.

 

Do we want to go there, perhaps a "stand alone locations" meaning not part of a larger entity such as an airport.

 

I am concerned if it is too broad and all consuming then we have lost the whole concept of Waymarking religious buildings that hold a worship service and are not part of the already existing denominational categories.

[+ripraff]

There are twelve classical world religions—those religions most often included in history of world religion surveys and studied in world religions classes: Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism.

 

Which of these have worship buildings?

Maybe Bahai, Jainism, Shinto...

[+T0SHEA]

Could Waychapels be expanded to include 'chapels in airports/hospitals' since way chapels "have traditionally served as a respite for travelers."

 

Charity could add a subcategory for some of the other things like soup kitchens mentioned.

 

Do we want to go there, perhaps a "stand alone locations" meaning not part of a larger entity such as an airport.

 

I am concerned if it is too broad and all consuming then we have lost the whole concept of Waymarking religious buildings that hold a worship service and are not part of the already existing denominational categories.

 

You know what, I misread your comment. Perhaps way chapels could be expanded. However, it has been our experience that some category leaders are resistant to change. Now I am NOT saying this is the case with way chapels or that ALL category leaders are resistant.

Edited October 7, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+ripraff]

Could Waychapels be expanded to include 'chapels in airports/hospitals' since way chapels "have traditionally served as a respite for travelers."

 

Charity could add a subcategory for some of the other things like soup kitchens mentioned.

 

Do we want to go there, perhaps a "stand alone locations" meaning not part of a larger entity such as an airport.

 

I am concerned if it is too broad and all consuming then we have lost the whole concept of Waymarking religious buildings that hold a worship service and are not part of the already existing denominational categories.

 

I got off topic, These are exclusions for the current topic, but maybe things mentioned to consider in other topics.

[+ripraff]

Stand alone building is a good qualifier. I just was Googling and got into some religions that might not have buildings, conduct services in the open. These would be excluded since it would be hard to waymark a site. I wasn't sure if any of the Native American religions had buildings, maybe the Mayan ruins? Aztec, Peruvian?

 

Oops, may want to include storefront churches, standalone would count these out. Stand-alone OR storefront.

Edited October 7, 2016 by ripraff

[+ripraff]

Ancient historic sites is an interesting category. We may want to exclude Stonehenge, Midwestern ancient temples for religions no longer practiced. This might exclude Aztec, Mayan, Peruvian.

Although it might be fun if someone found these. It might be fun to include these and see what people find.

Edited October 7, 2016 by ripraff

[+T0SHEA]

Stand along was not intended to be literal.

 

As the example: "stand alone locations" meaning not part of a larger entity such as an airport.

 

Storefront places of worship are okay as long as they would not be accepted into one of the denominational categories that already exist.

[+ripraff]

Sadly building would exclude sacred mountains. Another category?

[+T0SHEA]

Ancient historic sites is an interesting category. We may want to exclude Stonehenge, Midwestern ancient temples for religions no longer practiced. This might exclude Aztec, Mayan, Peruvian.

Although it might be fun if someone found these. It might be fun to include these and see what people find.

 

I think the key here is: CURRENTLY conducting some kind of religious service.

[+ripraff]

Most religious categories accept former. This could be extended to ancient.

[+ripraff]

Most people aren't going to find exotic ruins, but it does add a certain exciting quality.

[+BruceS]

We could qualify buildings to avoid sunrise services (often held outdoors). The category would be under Religious Buildings.

 

Included:

Unitarians

Spiritualists

Non-Denominational Churches

Mormon Churches (Not Temples)

Community Churches

Sikh temples

We should probably accept Scientologists and other cult types to avoid having to discriminate authentic/inauthentic. Many current denominations were considered fringe at one time.

What world religions do we not have that would have buildings for worship?

 

We should probably exclude Waychapels, Abbeys-etc., Megachurches, since they have their own category. You could consider cross-listing, but I wouldn't think so.

Cross listing allowed for categories such as Country churches, this old church, medieval church, stone church artifacts, National Historic Places.

 

Also accept named denominations IF the existing category excludes former and the church is no longer that brand.

 

I agree that accepting Church of Scientology for reason listed and also that this category should be an inclusive category for those not covered elsewhere.

 

I would avoid trying to list the denominations that would be accepted unless it is used only as examples but not limited to. I say this as there are many churches that would not be thought of to include in the list. An example of this would be Polish National Catholic Church based in the US which is not accepted in the Roman Catholic category as they are not in communion with Rome. A much larger group of denominations in the US that do not have a category would be Pentecostal (except Assembly of God). World wide there many other denominations that again would probably be unknown to include in any list, including the fourth largest protestant denomination in the world, Three-Self Patriotic Movement, the only denomination approved by the Chinese government.

[+ripraff]

Whether cathedral or humble parish church, ancient or contemporary, village chapel, or towering spire, all church buildings identified as Roman Catholic places of worship are welcome. active and former Anglican and Episcopal Church buildings. currently and formerly used as Methodist Churches. active and former Baptist Church buildings. active and former Lutheran Church buildings. Buildings that were once Presbyterian Churches that have been converted to another use may also be included as long as its history can be documented. Congregational Church buildings and historical sites associated with these denominations. Also welcome are historic sites or ruins of synagogues, or ones that have been converted to other uses, as long as they can be clearly identified and documented. any official mosque, past or present. It includes structures that were originally mosques and then converted to other purposes. Please specify if it was originally built for a religious purpose or later adapted to suit the needs of Quakers. current and former Church of Christ Scientist buildings. currently and formerly used as New Apostolic Churches.

 

The general wording is active/current or former. "converted to another use may also be included as long as its history can be documented." is good wording.

 

Since we talked about including the former churches of the few categories that are current only, that would mean accepting former. Also since this is an inclusive category we should go with the majority and accept current or former.

 

I really like the idea of ancient ruins, even though we won't get many.

[+ripraff]

A list would show what would be accepted and help clarify and suggest. It shows how many are currently excluded. Not restricting to the list would be good too. We are getting a good list started.

 

Polish National Catholic Church based in the US which is not accepted in the Roman Catholic category

Pentecostal (except Assembly of God)

Three-Self Patriotic Movement, the only denomination approved by the Chinese government.

Unitarians

Spiritualists

Non-Denominational Churches

Mormon Churches (Not Temples)

Community Churches

Sikh temples

Scientologists

Bahai, Jainism, Shinto... ?

Aztec, Mayan, Peruvian religious ruins

Stonehenge, Mideastern ancient temples

 

Former Church of the Nazarene, Assembly of God and Wesleyan

Edited October 7, 2016 by ripraff

[+T0SHEA]

Not sure where this is going.

 

It was NOT the intention to have a drop down list in the variables for types of religions. My question was posed to broaden ones concept of and bring awareness to the forum of other forms of religions.

 

We are not anywhere close to drafting a proposal until some of these recurring debates are settled and we can move one to the task at hand.

 

Creating a workable category that is manageable and concise.

 

I personally do not want to go the "Former" debate. If it is not active, does not hold a religious service then it just does not belong in Religious Building Multifarious category.

 

It also will not include any place of worship that is part of a larger entity such as an airport, hospital etc.

Edited October 7, 2016 by BK-Hunters

[+ripraff]

Excluded

Religious Buildings (Existing Categories)

Anglican and Episcopal, Assembly of God, Baptist, Buddhist Temples and Public Shrines, Church of Christ Scientist, Church of the Nazarene, Continental Reformed and Congregational Church, Hindu Temples, Kingdom Halls of Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutheran, Methodist, Mormon Temples, Mosques, New Apostolic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Quaker Meeting Houses ,Roman Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Synagogues, Wesleyan or other denominational religious building category (unless they exclude former sites). Waychapels, Abbeys-etc., Megachurches,

 

Outdoor site without ruins.

 

Sites that are a part of a larger site such as chapels at airports and hospitals.

 

Religious buildings for non-worship services might be administrative headquarters, homes for wayward persons, rehab centres, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, pastoral residences, camp buildings, etc.

[+BruceS]

Not sure where this is going.

 

It was NOT the intention to have a drop down list in the variables for types of religions. My question was posed to broaden ones concept of and bring awareness to the forum of other forms of religions.

 

We are not anywhere close to drafting a proposal until some of these recurring debates are settled and we can move one to the task at hand.

 

Creating a workable category that is manageable and concise. Agree

 

I personally do not want to go the "Former" debate. If it is not active, does not hold a religious service then it just does not belong in Religious Building Multifarious category. Agree, I could go either way on this but this direction is much "cleaner"

It also will not include any place of worship that is part of a larger entity such as a airport, hospital etc. Agree, assuming that a storefront church would not be considered part of a large entity, ie the strip mall it is located in.

 

My comments are in red above. To help understand the potential broadness of this category this is link to list of just Christian churches, many of which do fall under existing categories.

[+T0SHEA]

"(unless they exclude former sites). Waychapels, Abbeys-etc., Megachurches"

 

You listed exclusions. However, a former site is NOT currently active as that type of church: Example, a Community Church non-denomination is now a Baptist Church. I do not want to go there do you?

 

As far as Megachurches, what if it is a Mormon Church (not a temple) or a Scientologists Church? The point here these can not be excluded just because they are classified as a "Megachurch".

[+ripraff]

Many religions...Potential for a large number, but how many are we really going to find?

 

For the sake of the waymark, could we add a question to describe the religion, its origin and generally where it is practiced, by about how many people?

 

How often the building is used for services. (restrict to at least monthly?)

 

List which categories cannot be cross listed and which can, at least have guidance for reviewers of which are definitely included or excluded. (leaving the possibility for more).

 

There must be a building which is not part of a larger building, but can be a storefront.

 

Current or former or ancient? (I vote for all of them.)

[+ripraff]

Yes, I can go there.

 

If a building was Baptist, but is now community it can be way marked as Baptist, therefore excluded.

 

If a building was a Community Church, but is now vacant or a restaurant it can be way marked.

[+The A-Team]

I personally do not want to go the "Former" debate. If it is not active, does not hold a religious service then it just does not belong in Religious Building Multifarious category.

I agree with this too. I just don't see why we'd want to include a community centre where the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster once held regular services for 6 months.

 

That brings up another question. Does the building have to be consecrated (or the equivalent for the religion) to qualify as a "place of worship", or can it simply be a building where worship services are held? As an example, I know of a local community church congregation that doesn't have their own consecrated place of worship, but rather holds its services in a community centre. I think I even remember seeing a community centre that hosted services for multiple congregations (possibly different religions) at different times. I don't mean to muddy the waters, but there are a lot of aspects to creating this catch-all category that will need to be addressed.

[+elyob]

 

That brings up another question. Does the building have to be consecrated (or the equivalent for the religion) to qualify as a "place of worship", or can it simply be a building where worship services are held? As an example, I know of a local community church congregation that doesn't have their own consecrated place of worship, but rather holds its services in a community centre. I think I even remember seeing a community centre that hosted services for multiple congregations (possibly different religions) at different times. I don't mean to muddy the waters, but there are a lot of aspects to creating this catch-all category that will need to be addressed.

 

This is an important issue and applies to many buildings where I waymark.

Edited October 7, 2016 by elyob

[+T0SHEA]

I am currently working on a proposal and will start a new thread when completed.