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Requiring GSAK for a Challenge Cache?

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BUT - and this is a big BUT - even if a challenge cache were the best, most creative hide ever, in the most fantastic location - I wouldn't see it as effectively lessening the value of the caches I did in order to qualify to find the challenge.

 

As things stand my experience of challenge caches is largely that they are a quick tick in a box arising from the type of caches I like doing and would do anyway - whether challenge caches existed or not and even if the Utopia described above - fantastic challenge cache at end existed, that still wouldn't see me looking down on all the other caches I'd done along the way.

 

Interesting.

 

I'm not saying that the physical hide for the challenge cache is or needs be creative. Of course that is a bonus... and if I work on a challenge and find the final is a dull nano on a street sign, I would prefer a better final. Similar to solving a difficult puzzle cache. But as with the puzzle cache, I will get some fun out of completing the task regardless.

 

I don't see the challenge taking anything away from other caches; it just adds to them. I go out and find cache A - a nice old cache in good location, hidden in 2001. That will make me feel happy. If that cache was the last cell I needed to fill in my Jasmer grid, it will make me even happier. Then later - when I find and log a Jasmer challenge cache, I will reflect on all those past caches and my achievement, and that will make me happy too. And whatever sort of cache that final challenge cache is - a nano or a ammo box - I will be happier finding THAT cache then if THAT cache was a traditional in the same location.

 

That may not be logical, but it is what I feel.

 

I see your point of view :)

 

Another way to look at it might be that some of the positivity arising from the experiences enjoyed while qualifying rubs off on the otherwise decidedly ordinary or, often, poor cache that is the challenge final and makes it seem better than it actually is.

 

I can't think of an occasion where the opposite has happened though.

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Another way to look at it might be that some of the positivity arising from the experiences enjoyed while qualifying rubs off on the otherwise decidedly ordinary or, often, poor cache that is the challenge final and makes it seem better than it actually is.

 

 

Oh, for sure. I'll be excited about logging that challenge final even if it is a very dull cache itself. And it is the same for me with a difficult puzzle. If it takes me weeks to solve a puzzle, I'm pretty excited when I can find the final and mark it found. I may also be dissapointed at the time time - if the final is really poor - but the act of completing the challenge/puzzle itself will hide most of that.

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Another way to look at it might be that some of the positivity arising from the experiences enjoyed while qualifying rubs off on the otherwise decidedly ordinary or, often, poor cache that is the challenge final and makes it seem better than it actually is.

 

 

Oh, for sure. I'll be excited about logging that challenge final even if it is a very dull cache itself. And it is the same for me with a difficult puzzle. If it takes me weeks to solve a puzzle, I'm pretty excited when I can find the final and mark it found. I may also be dissapointed at the time time - if the final is really poor - but the act of completing the challenge/puzzle itself will hide most of that.

 

Seems we share similar points of view on this one :)

 

Although I am biased toward puzzles as I feel they generally involve more creativity on the part of the CO than do a lot of the challenges that I see.

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Seems we share similar points of view on this one :)

 

Although I am biased toward puzzles as I feel they generally involve more creativity on the part of the CO than do a lot of the challenges that I see.

 

Yes.. I'm with you there too. And given the choice of permanently disallowing new puzzle caches or new challenge caches, I'd rather keep the puzzles and lose the challenges. But I think both add to the game.

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But the real question is, should GSAK be required in order to log a challenge cache?
No.

 

End of thread :D

Not quite. There's a follow-up question:

Should older challenge caches that require GSAK be grandfathered (the way challenges with restrictions on when a cache was found are grandfathered)? Or should the requirement for GSAK be overruled (the way all ALRs were made optional)?

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But the real question is, should GSAK be required in order to log a challenge cache?
No.

 

End of thread :D

Not quite. There's a follow-up question:

Should older challenge caches that require GSAK be grandfathered (the way challenges with restrictions on when a cache was found are grandfathered)? Or should the requirement for GSAK be overruled (the way all ALRs were made optional)?

 

My vote would be the latter. But in reality, how many challenges other than the cited one actually mandate GSAK?

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But the real question is, should GSAK be required in order to log a challenge cache?
No.

 

End of thread :D

Not quite. There's a follow-up question:

Should older challenge caches that require GSAK be grandfathered (the way challenges with restrictions on when a cache was found are grandfathered)? Or should the requirement for GSAK be overruled (the way all ALRs were made optional)?

 

It should be overruled because I get the feeling that the motivation behind it was to allow the CO to expend as little effort as possible in checking qualification.

 

Can't be bothered to check qualification for the challenge caches you own? You own too many challenge caches.

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There's a follow-up question:

Should older challenge caches that require GSAK be grandfathered (the way challenges with restrictions on when a cache was found are grandfathered)? Or should the requirement for GSAK be overruled (the way all ALRs were made optional)?

 

Considering this...

And now, the official results directly from HQ...

 

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for writing in to us, and good question. Although the CO of the challenge cache can require proof of the qualifications to be posted to the cache page, he/she cannot require that the proof be in a particular form, such as a screenshot of a GSAK macro. If there are other ways to show that someone met the challenge requirements, those methods also need to be accepted. This is not a grandfathered additional logging requirement. We'll be contacting AirRaidFan regarding this and ask him to change the challenge requirements.

 

Best,

Alex

 

Community Manager

 

I think that question is technically answered as well.

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Ah, I missed that post. And now it really is the end of the thread.

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It sounds as though you're saying that regular caching is equivalent to just hitting golf balls and that subsequently finding a challenge cache somehow transforms that overall experience into a more wholesome and rewarding one.

You asked how the challenge of a challenge cache could make the game more wholesome and rewarding, so I provided a clear example that most people would agree on where being challenged to perform a sport in an organized manner is more rewarding than just performing the activity for the activity's sake.

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I don't think the golf analogy works. Geocaching came first, then came challenge caches. But golf came first, then came driving ranges, putting greens, hitting golf balls on the moon, etc.

 

A better analogy might be cycling (geocaching) vs keeping track of your cycling miles, comparing your online records with others, and earning online badges for cycling milestones (challenge caches).

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It sounds as though you're saying that regular caching is equivalent to just hitting golf balls and that subsequently finding a challenge cache somehow transforms that overall experience into a more wholesome and rewarding one.

You asked how the challenge of a challenge cache could make the game more wholesome and rewarding, so I provided a clear example that most people would agree on where being challenged to perform a sport in an organized manner is more rewarding than just performing the activity for the activity's sake.

 

Some people perhaps but most people? I very highly doubt it.

 

To save repeating myself I would refer you back to my earlier post.

 

Thanks for trying though :)

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Some people perhaps but most people? I very highly doubt it.

Again, you asked how it could be rewarding because you couldn't imagine it. I told you. I have no idea why you're bickering about numbers now.

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Some people perhaps but most people? I very highly doubt it.

Again, you asked how it could be rewarding because you couldn't imagine it. I told you. I have no idea why you're bickering about numbers now.

 

Bickering? No.

 

Rejecting the part of your hypothesis that I believe to be incorrect? Absolutely.

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Rejecting the part of your hypothesis that I believe to be incorrect? Absolutely.

Hypothesis? For the third time, I was merely pointing out why some people find challenge caches rewarding. Is that what you're rejecting?

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Rejecting the part of your hypothesis that I believe to be incorrect? Absolutely.

Hypothesis? For the third time, I was merely pointing out why some people find challenge caches rewarding. Is that what you're rejecting?

 

It's the more inclusive term "most" as opposed to the somewhat lesser inclusive term "some".

 

Whether or not challenge caches are wanted, liked, needed, etc. is an excellent topic for a separate thread.

 

Can we get back to whether or not GSAK should be required for challenge caches?

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Yeah the requirement is that the cacher's qualification should be verifiable using the website - not just using the profile stats which may be private. So bookmark lists would be the next answer. A CO can reqest a bookmark list as proof since it's a feature of the website.

 

I have a feeling though that a challenge requiring a bookmark list itself, rather than just a list of caches as evidence, wouldn't get publish, as it once again places the challenge on completing a technical task instead of the geocaching task. I haven't seen one, at least, that requires a bookmark list only (and enforced). Most allow you to include the list in your log if you want (text or image). This is of course referring to highly complex challenges, or challenges requiring a very long list of qualifying caches.

 

If it's not readily visible in the statistics, then the cacher needs to provide, using some method (website features included, 3rd party tools allowed but not required), their qualifications. They can't require the CO to use a 3rd party app to verify, but the cacher can if they post the results of that tool with the log. At that point, even if the verification process is highly complex, the CO has all they need to check each cache, using whatever tool they wish, to verify the qualification.

 

Basically, as long as the finder's log either includes the necessary proof for verification, or points to where the proof can be determined and verified on gc.com, then the requirements (as long their fulfillment does not require 3rd party tools) would be allowable.

 

At least as the guidelines stand now... :ph34r:

 

You may not have run across a challenge where the CO required a bookmark list as proof and would not accept any other form of proof, but I have. I contacted the CO and asked if he used GSAK then I could send him a GSAK file. If he used Excel then I could send him an Excel file. In fact I told him if he used any database or spreadsheet I could make a file that was compatible with it so he could use that. But he insisted on a bookmark list. This was before GSAK had the GC.com API and could upload a GSAK file directly to a bookmark list. So for the next few months I spent hours hand entering into a bookmark list each of the qualifying caches. The stupid thing is, some of the information he needed to verify if each cache met his requirements is not publically available on GC.com so I do not know how he managed to check whether I met all his requirements. Luckily for later cachers he turned ownership of the challenge over to somebody else that had more common sense about how to verify.

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It's the more inclusive term "most" as opposed to the somewhat lesser inclusive term "some".

Are you saying that most people don't find playing a round of golf more rewarding than hitting golf balls at a driving range? That's where I used the term.

 

Can we get back to whether or not GSAK should be required for challenge caches?

I thought we already settled that question.

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So that plain old park and grab at the same location is somehow much better because you had to jump through hoops just to be allowed to log it as found? :blink:

 

Colour me bewildered :unsure:

 

And really HOW does that challenge make the game more interesting?

 

Consider the two options:

 

1. Go out and find a bunch of caches because you want to.

 

2. Go out and find a bunch of caches because a challenge says you have to - then go and sign the log on that plain old park and grab.

 

What did option 2 add to the experience to make it more interesting? Oh yeah - that plain old park and grab at the end.

It's like the difference between hitting golf balls and playing a round of golf. You can hit balls because you want to, sure, but most people find it more fun to be challenged by a course.

 

I'm not advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater either (who *does* that anyway?).

Nobody throws the baby out with the bathwater. That's what makes it a good metaphor.

That was supposed to be a joke.

 

 

I strongly support GS's decision to enact an moratorium, though personally I would have called it a "indefinite ban" to prevent the backlash if they decide not to rescind the moratorium.

I assume this was a joke. The moratorium was problematic. The shouting wouldn't die down for the entire year if they'd presented it as an indefinite ban.

 

No, that wasn't supposed to be a joke. An indefinite ban means it could be lifted after a month, or never. A one year moratorium means that after a year, the assumption will be that it will lifted, or that they'll be reinstated with some additional restrictions.

 

 

In generally, I like the idea of challenges, but think they've gotten way out of hand. I totally support the various suggestions of decoupling a challenge or achievement from an additional cache places for one to log.

I'd prefer challenge caches as they are. I don't think I'd be very interested in some decoupled achievement mechanism. But, then, I really haven't seen a big problem with challenge caches to begin with.

 

I don't care for that line of argument but it happens here quite often. Someone creates a thread indicating an aspect of the game they don't like or feels is bad for the game, and might support their opinion with several thought out reasons. Then someone responds that "I don't have a problem with that, therefore we should keep things as they are." That completely dismisses the fact that some people *do* have a problem with some aspect of the game and doesn't attempt to address the specific arguments someone has made.

 

Personally, I think whether or not I like challenges is irrelevant. The issue is whether or not challenges are good for the game as a whole or is negatively impacting the enjoyment for a significant number of players.

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I don't care for that line of argument but it happens here quite often. Someone creates a thread indicating an aspect of the game they don't like or feels is bad for the game, and might support their opinion with several thought out reasons. Then someone responds that "I don't have a problem with that, therefore we should keep things as they are." That completely dismisses the fact that some people *do* have a problem with some aspect of the game and doesn't attempt to address the specific arguments someone has made.

...it happens the other way too.

Someone creates a thread indicating an aspect of the game they like and enjoy with other people, and might support their opinion with several experiences and thought out reasons. Then someone responds that "I don't like it, I don't do it, I've seen bad things related to it, therefore we should get rid of it entirely, ban it all." That completely dismisses the fact that some people *do* have a very much positive, enjoyable experience with some aspect of the game and doesn't attempt to address the specific benefits someone has raised.

 

If there's one argument that really bugs me it's the "I don't like it. I don't use it. Get rid of it." one.

Present well thought out reasons for or against something, and why your argument should be considered; rebut others' points as objectively as possible. Like / don't like something and that's all? Great, opinions are wonderful; just notsomuch when they're presented as factual opposition to other opinions, especially objective points. "Well I don't like it so your argument is moot". *sizzle* :P

 

Anyway, I'm OT. End rant. :ph34r:

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I'd prefer challenge caches as they are. I don't think I'd be very interested in some decoupled achievement mechanism. But, then, I really haven't seen a big problem with challenge caches to begin with.

I don't care for that line of argument but it happens here quite often.

That wasn't an argument, just an opinion. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

 

Personally, I think whether or not I like challenges is irrelevant.

While I do like challenges, the opinion I was expressing was comparing challenges as they are with the alternative achievement proposal, so I think that is relevant.

 

The issue is whether or not challenges are good for the game as a whole or is negatively impacting the enjoyment for a significant number of players.

I have to admit, I've never understood the logic behind claiming my enjoyment is negatively impacted by something I can just ignore.

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