+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Most people aren't as foolish as I . I was just getting tired and lazy... But I'd love to see how the trails really look! Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Wow, glad you got out (relatively) unscathed...! I had some anxiety as well going with a few non-cacher friends to do that desert cache, with the only gps being my 3GS - I even had a small mishap going through the cave to get to the desert surface that woke me up. Dropped my phone into the dirt and sand. Glad it didn't have issues though, and it survived the heat. On the desert, the terrain was very open and flat save for numerous crevices and valleys. Didn't want to forget which one we came out of! (our only way back to the cave and car) The last ~100m was over the desert and down and up a couple of small hills. And, we didn't want to get lost in the car on the dusty off-road roads That was an experience in itself (and a little surprising that google maps even had those nearly invisible roads laid out). Quite the experience. We all have events that teach us about being prepared But bad decisions can come from bad information. That's why I have the Garmin with NWTrails. Indeed! Here we have a group of cachers and explorers working on the Ontario Trails Project. When a few friends and I headed north for a 5/5 wilderness hike in the winter, a couple of us made sure to get those trails available for offline use. Definitely helped us choose the right directions when trails were hard to locate in the snow...! Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 There's been a text explosion on my screen! Stop talking about me. Now that you've stopped, I will as well This by their clothing choice (style and funtion), footware, amount and type of gear carried, etc, and the amount of wear on those items (read: time on the trail). I've concluded that those more prepared prefer dedicated GPSrs. I know plenty of "smartphone users" quite the opposite. So again it all depends on your sample size and context Equating "smartphone users" to "unprepared cachers" is unfair in regards to which device you'd recommend for someone. Rather, regardless of device being used, encourage everyone to be prepared, especially when caching out in the wilderness! But yes, it may well be that 'city-slickers' who take up geocaching, likely due to possession of a smartphone, are more likely to be unprepared for nature. Not because of the smartphone, but because they're not used to going outdoors for lengthier periods as much. But I didn't equate rather I noted a very strong correlation. But since we're now talking about my opinions, a smartphone for navigation on a hike (rather than a walk in the woods) is a poor choice made by inexperienced hikers. For me, I've used my 3GS and 4S under many heavier terrains and environments successfully and without issue, so the device itself is certainly capable. Just a basic function of GPS, locate where you are Whether someone else who is not me could have the same results, well that would depend on the person. Whether someone else with a higher quality dedicated GPSr could have an easier/faster time, well that would also depend on the person I disagree; it's more about the device. Which device should you (general) get? If you have nothing, get a GPSr in your price range. Smartphone in your sights? Here are the models you should look at and here are the ones you should avoid. If primarily city caching and you can afford the data plan, a smartphone. Otherwise, GPSr and learn to use GSAK. Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Otherwise, GPSr and learn to use GSAK. Snort. I'd just as easily learn Italian or some other foreign language. except it's worse because I have to have it on the hubs windows based computer. It's double frustration. I.hate.gsak. None of the you tube videos make any sense either. Its just all crap! Deep breath. Most of the time I don't even have geocaches loaded on my Garmin. Too much work Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Here we have a group of cachers and explorers working on the Ontario Trails Project. When a few friends and I headed north for a 5/5 wilderness hike in the winter, a couple of us made sure to get those trails available for offline use. Definitely helped us choose the right directions when trails were hard to locate in the snow...! Ah so you see the points I was making. Earlier, I requested that anyone that knew how to get Garmin img files into a smartphone app please post how to do it or contact me so I could ask some questions. Care to make yourself available? The primary function would be for search and rescue operations, though I would make the maps available to everyone. Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Otherwise, GPSr and learn to use GSAK. Snort. I'd just as easily learn Italian or some other foreign language. except it's worse because I have to have it on the hubs windows based computer. It's double frustration. I.hate.gsak. None of the you tube videos make any sense either. Its just all crap! Deep breath. Most of the time I don't even have geocaches loaded on my Garmin. Too much work But, but GSAK is the cats whiskers, or behind, or whatever that saying is. GSAK has a massively steep learning curve. Like a climbing wall. But once up it a ways, you can see the power and value in using it. The Jester gives local classes on it once in a while, and as a bonus it's an event cache so worth a smiley. Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 A page or two back I had asked you if it's possible to see NWTrails, NWTopos and geocaches all on the same screen. Is this possible? Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 A page or two back I had asked you if it's possible to see NWTrails, NWTopos and geocaches all on the same screen. Is this possible? Sorry, missed that. Basically the answer is yes. Some details follow. First, NW Trails is an transparent 'layer' so if that is all you had then you would only see the lines indicating a trail. To put it into context, it's used in conjunction with, and 'over,' another map, either a road map or a topo map. This is true for software on the computer as well as on the GPSr. NW Topos is then just NW Trails integrated directly with a Topo Map to become a single mapset. There are reasons why this is or is not preferable to independent maps. Geocaches are normally waypoints and are shown 'above' all the map layers so can always been seen. I say normally, because they can also be loaded as POIs (points of interest). There are reasons to do it one way or another but that is another discussion. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 re #153 - Well, then we'll have to disagree on most of the above. Your implication by saying "a smartphone for navigation on a hike is a poor choice made by inexperienced hikers" is that I'm an inexperienced hiker for hiking with only my 4S. Where on the scale of "inexperienced" are you referring? I'm far from 'professional' or even prolific, but I'm far from inexperienced. And my experience hiking through quite a number of more rugged terrains with the 4S tells me that your opinion isn't helpful -- if "inexperienced" remains unqualified, along with "smartphone". But, that's your opinion, so you can imply I'm inexperienced if you want. Honestly, this would help gauge at what level of hiker you consider yourself in comparison to the general geocaching community, and lend some credence to your opinion that 'people who hike with only a smartphone are inexperienced' (rather than saying "many who...") If primarily city caching and you can afford the data plan, a smartphone. Otherwise, GPSr and learn to use GSAK. I know many who use a smartphone and GSAK (and cache a lot outside the city, myself included). So yet another opinion we'll have to disagree on I disagree; it's more about the device. Well let's see, if we were to map out generic capabilities and accuracies among devices, yes I'd wager that the average or median would be in favour of dedicated GPS devices. No debate there. But this is why makes and models are important -- If someone says "dedicated GPSrs are better", the inquirer might go out and grab a cheap GPSr thinking it'll be better than a high end smartphone (one which they may have opted to purchase otherwise) and be worse off, technologically (if, as you say, it is more about the device). Ideally, if someone has a very very honed geosense, then regardless of the device (as long as it's even somewhat accurate), said cacher would have just as easy a time finding the cache. That's what I meant about geosense vs device. Obviously, if one could guarantee that posted coordinates are accurate 100% of the time, then without resorting to geosense the best dedicated GPS device would more quickly and accurately arrive at GZ than the best smartphone. Again, no debate, as that's a matter of dedicated vs hybrid. But when it comes to finding a cache, I've seen people with good GPSrs walking around in circles trying to improve accuracy with a jumping location while others (with a smartphone and without) just start searching the area, then find it first. Earlier, I requested that anyone that knew how to get Garmin img files into a smartphone app please post how to do it or contact me so I could ask some questions. Care to make yourself available? The primary function would be for search and rescue operations, though I would make the maps available to everyone. Actually Greg / northernpenguin exported the data as an enormous GPX for me. Too much data. He graciously then exported a GPX of the area we were heading to, along with a KMZ file, with the trails and POIs. So unfortunately I don't yet have any input for using custom maps with smartphone apps... EveryTrail and MotionX GPS are two of the best GPS apps that allow use of trails and GPX and whatnot in conjunction with their websites, but I haven't played around with them enough in that regard to offer any informed opinion. I love EveryTrail for track logging though, and for exporting to analyze elevation data and whatnot. I have zero input for Android or Windows Phone support I doubt Garmin any time soon will develop an iOS app to support use of their proprietary maps (I'd love to be wrong though) Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) NW Topos is then just NW Trails integrated directly with a Topo Map to become a single mapset. There are reasons why this is or is not preferable to independent maps. . Thanks... Ok. I just have NW trails and some places geocaches of the random nearby cities. I understand the whole wpts/SD card situation. I find that too many caches clutters my views anyway. Why wouldn't I want the topos then? Edited May 7, 2012 by JesandTodd Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 But, but GSAK is the cats whiskers, or behind, or whatever that saying is. The bees knees... or beegees... or something like that? Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Minor correction - the Ontario trails are provided in numerous formats, including GPX and KMZ, but as the whole collection. For our trip he reduced the selection down to our area, but not in a way for optimal use on an iOS app (just the generic waypoint data which I utilized manually). Kitten's purr! d'aww Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 You seem to think my comments are directed at you when they are not. re #153 - Well, then we'll have to disagree on most of the above. Your implication by saying "a smartphone for navigation on a hike is a poor choice made by inexperienced hikers" is that I'm an inexperienced hiker for hiking with only my 4S. Where on the scale of "inexperienced" are you referring? I'm far from 'professional' or even prolific, but I'm far from inexperienced. And my experience hiking through quite a number of more rugged terrains with the 4S tells me that your opinion isn't helpful -- if "inexperienced" remains unqualified, along with "smartphone". But, that's your opinion, so you can imply I'm inexperienced if you want. Honestly, this would help gauge at what level of hiker you consider yourself in comparison to the general geocaching community, and lend some credence to your opinion that 'people who hike with only a smartphone are inexperienced' (rather than saying "many who...") I see no reason why I would need to, nor am I motivated to, come an agreement with you. I'm given out information based on my personal experiences so others can come to their own conclusions. A typical year is about 600 miles and 140,000 feet of elevation. As if that matters. If primarily city caching and you can afford the data plan, a smartphone. Otherwise, GPSr and learn to use GSAK. I know many who use a smartphone and GSAK (and cache a lot outside the city, myself included). So yet another opinion we'll have to disagree on GSAK is great for both, but more important for GPSrs because they don't have a direct data link to the internet (yet). I disagree; it's more about the device. Well let's see, if we were to map out generic capabilities and accuracies among devices, yes I'd wager that the average or median would be in favour of dedicated GPS devices. No debate there. But this is why makes and models are important -- If someone says "dedicated GPSrs are better", the inquirer might go out and grab a cheap GPSr thinking it'll be better than a high end smartphone (one which they may have opted to purchase otherwise) and be worse off, technologically (if, as you say, it is more about the device). Ideally, if someone has a very very honed geosense, then regardless of the device (as long as it's even somewhat accurate), said cacher would have just as easy a time finding the cache. That's what I meant about geosense vs device. Obviously, if one could guarantee that posted coordinates are accurate 100% of the time, then without resorting to geosense the best dedicated GPS device would more quickly and accurately arrive at GZ than the best smartphone. Again, no debate, as that's a matter of dedicated vs hybrid. But when it comes to finding a cache, I've seen people with good GPSrs walking around in circles trying to improve accuracy with a jumping location while others (with a smartphone and without) just start searching the area, then find it first. Which is why I provide the things I've learned, my experiences and opinions. It's up to the reader to take that info, determine it's value to the best of their ability based on my statements, and apply it as needed to their particular situation. Earlier, I requested that anyone that knew how to get Garmin img files into a smartphone app please post how to do it or contact me so I could ask some questions. Care to make yourself available? The primary function would be for search and rescue operations, though I would make the maps available to everyone. Actually Greg / northernpenguin exported the data as an enormous GPX for me. Too much data. He graciously then exported a GPX of the area we were heading to, along with a KMZ file, with the trails and POIs. So unfortunately I don't yet have any input for using custom maps with smartphone apps... EveryTrail and MotionX GPS are two of the best GPS apps that allow use of trails and GPX and whatnot in conjunction with their websites, but I haven't played around with them enough in that regard to offer any informed opinion. I love EveryTrail for track logging though, and for exporting to analyze elevation data and whatnot. I have zero input for Android or Windows Phone support Do you think he would be willing to discuss his process and if so, can you put me in touch with him? I doubt Garmin any time soon will develop an iOS app to support use of their proprietary maps (I'd love to be wrong though) Pretty much 100% there not going to do that unless lots of $$$. But not necessary. And Garmin's maps are horrible anyway. Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 NW Topos is then just NW Trails integrated directly with a Topo Map to become a single mapset. There are reasons why this is or is not preferable to independent maps. . Thanks... Ok. I just have NW trails and some places geocaches of the random nearby cities. I understand the whole wpts/SD card situation. I find that too many caches clutters my views anyway. Why wouldn't I want the topos then? One reason is that it takes longer to render the much larger amount of data so often a small delay for the screen to refresh when scrolling. NW Trails over road map is faster. The slow down is a little irritating but not that bad. If you want to switch between a road map and a topo map, it's probably easier to use a city / topo / NW Trails combo than a city/NW Trails / NW Topos combo. Has to do with the effort to set the GPSr to display the maps. A big reason to use is that it's a free high quality Topo Map (Garmin's is poor quality and sells for $60-$100) though they can be found without NW Trails on them. Personally, I use NW Topos almost all the time. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 You seem to think my comments are directed at you when they are not. I know, that's why I said the 'implication'... "people who use smartphones for navigating hikes are inexperienced" implies that anyone who does so is such, and that is what I took issue with. Not everyone who does is, nor does it bear any insight to the question at hand. Nonetheless, it is your opinion. I see no reason why I would need to, nor am I motivated to, come an agreement with you. I'm given out information based on my personal experiences so others can come to their own conclusions. See Well, then we'll have to disagree on most of the above. I'm fine with that. Debating opinions is pointless =P Just trying to separate opinion from experience. But when it comes to finding a cache, I've seen people with good GPSrs walking around in circles trying to improve accuracy with a jumping location while others (with a smartphone and without) just start searching the area, then find it first. Which is why I provide the things I've learned, my experiences and opinions. It's up to the reader to take that info, determine it's value to the best of their ability based on my statements, and apply it as needed to their particular situation. Indeed. And that's why I like discussion forums when used productively - discuss differing opinions and come to agreements or respectful disagreements Do you think he would be willing to discuss his process and if so, can you put me in touch with him? I'm certain he'd be willing to discuss his mapping project with fellow trail mappers, seems like you have very similar goals if not exactly the same His email is on the site and his caching name is northernpenguin. Pretty much 100% there not going to do that unless lots of $$. But not necessary. And Garmin's maps are horrible anyway. That's what I hear too... hoping this emphasis from Groundspeak on OpenMaps ends up more beneficial to the greater community... (or vice versa!) Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 It's the cat's butt sounds funnier! JesandTodd: here's a map of the Redmond Backcountry with the cache and the route you took, since you were wondering about it. I'm going to sign off here shortly and go for a trail run back there Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I'm going to sign off here shortly and go for a trail run back there Likewise, only to go work on some coding for a puzzle cache... Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 If you want to switch between a road map and a topo map, it's probably easier to use a city / topo / NW Trails combo than a city/NW Trails / NW Topos combo. Has to do with the effort to set the GPSr to display the maps. Personally, I use NW Topos almost all the time. Hmm. I don't know... I had a meltdown getting the NWTrails on there. I don't think I have any maps on there? It's all blank? I don't want to switch anything while using the Garmin. I just want to turn it on and see where I'm at on the trail. Be great to see topo lines Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Both of you are lucky. I'm stuck at work on a painfully slow day and it's perfectly sunny out!! Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 You seem to think my comments are directed at you when they are not. I know, that's why I said the 'implication'... "people who use smartphones for navigating hikes are inexperienced" implies that anyone who does so is such, and that is what I took issue with. Not everyone who does is, nor does it bear any insight to the question at hand. Nonetheless, it is your opinion. And this is germane how? For the record: my statements are based on a lot of first hand knowledge and I'm very level headed and thorough thinker. Given that, I have yet to see an experienced hiker using a smartphone. Maybe you're my first exception. Then again, you haven't provided your experience level, even after requesting and receiving mine. Everyone I've seen and known that reaches a certain level of experience (not all that high) will opt to go to a dedicated device because it's just plain makes sense / is easier to use, and all the other reasons I and others have noted. If you haven't reached that level of experience to understand why, then you really have no business commenting that it's not true. But when it comes to finding a cache, I've seen people with good GPSrs walking around in circles trying to improve accuracy with a jumping location while others (with a smartphone and without) just start searching the area, then find it first. Which is why I provide the things I've learned, my experiences and opinions. It's up to the reader to take that info, determine it's value to the best of their ability based on my statements, and apply it as needed to their particular situation. Indeed. And that's why I like discussion forums when used productively - discuss differing opinions and come to agreements or respectful disagreements For clarity, you chopped your own quote down significantly and my quote wasn't responding to that part of it; my comment made sense in the bigger picture. Do you think he would be willing to discuss his process and if so, can you put me in touch with him? I'm certain he'd be willing to discuss his mapping project with fellow trail mappers, seems like you have very similar goals if not exactly the same His email is on the site and his caching name is northernpenguin. OIC: I thought it was someone more of an expert in smartphone mapping apps. Pretty much 100% there not going to do that unless lots of $$. But not necessary. And Garmin's maps are horrible anyway. That's what I hear too... hoping this emphasis from Groundspeak on OpenMaps ends up more beneficial to the greater community... (or vice versa!) To be more clear, I was speaking about their topo maps. Their routeable road maps are decent; better than OpenMaps, at least for routing. Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 If you want to switch between a road map and a topo map, it's probably easier to use a city / topo / NW Trails combo than a city/NW Trails / NW Topos combo. Has to do with the effort to set the GPSr to display the maps.Personally, I use NW Topos almost all the time.Hmm. I don't know... I had a meltdown getting the NWTrails on there. I don't think I have any maps on there? It's all blank? I don't want to switch anything while using the Garmin. I just want to turn it on and see where I'm at on the trail. Be great to see topo lines All you need to load NW Topo Maps. PM or email me if you want help. Or maybe we should start a new topic? That way others can follow along if they want to? IDK what's best. Both of you are lucky. I'm stuck at work on a painfully slow day and it's perfectly sunny out!! For the subject matter, I'll make time to help others. The other, no. Yeah, freaking beautiful out! I'm going to enjoy right now Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I think a new topic might be best. I always google for gsak info or even the NWTrails and come up short. It's frustrating. Sunny, nice and warm. And I'm on call to boot! No trails for me today Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I think a new topic might be best. I always google for gsak info or even the NWTrails and come up short. It's frustrating. Sunny, nice and warm. And I'm on call to boot! No trails for me today Ah that was nice, a run always makes me feel better. Hope the weather says around for you to enjoy some too. Did some research and found this which includes instructions for Mac, which I think you indicated you use. Also this which is for PC but most of it also applies to a Mac I'm sure. If those instructions don't work, or you have any questions (any, even the most basic - we've all been there at some point), feel free to ask me Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I don't use the Mac for my gps- it makes it beep uncontrollably until it dies. Thanks for the links! I'll give it a shot tonight when I finally get released from work. The first link shows maps of Az and made me a little homesick... Thanks for the offer of help--> I'll probably need it! Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) I have yet to see an experienced hiker using a smartphone. Maybe you're my first exception. Perhaps I am. But again it depends on how you are defining "experienced". Though as you said, how is that germane to the discussion about GPS device quality? Neither my hiking experience, nor your opinion about hikers who use smartphones is relevant. All that is is whether there are smartphones that are capable of accomplishing such hikes, and beyond that, whether any particular individual is comfortable with whatever effort is needed to accomplish said hikes with the device. Then again, you haven't provided your experience level, even after requesting and receiving mine. I have, quite often, describing the environments I've cached in, and having been only the past few years since I started geocaching are also the places I've hiked the most in. Numerous forest hikes, 20-40km hikes, hikes through caves, on desert, sailing over open water, with and without cell coverage, never with topo maps, sometimes pre-planning using custom trailmaps and software - but all using either the 3GS or 4S while mobile, and in the more extreme circumstances, as group caching events with others also carrying either smartphones or dedicated GPSrs, often providing opportunities to compare capabilities. That's my experience. You've provided examples of your experience. But you haven't defined "experienced hiker" in the context of your claim that "experienced hikers don't use a smartphone". Everyone I've seen and known that reaches a certain level of experience (not all that high) will opt to go to a dedicated device because it's just plain makes sense / is easier to use, and all the other reasons I and others have noted. If you haven't reached that level of experience to understand why, then you really have no business commenting that it's not true. Another nice subversive insult. Please define "experience", and "not all that high". You hang around different people, and obviously have a very different sample set to pull your opinion from. That's fine. My experience is quite different. "easier to use" is quite subjective depending on who you ask. You seem to imply that no one with even a small amount of experience would go hiking with only a smartphone. 1) I know that to not be true and 2) see above re qualifying "experience" and the generic "smartphone". I'm certain he'd be willing to discuss his mapping project with fellow trail mappers' date=' seems like you have very similar goals if not exactly the same His email is on the site and his caching name is northernpenguin. OIC: I thought it was someone more of an expert in smartphone mapping apps. As far as I know, no. I'm sorry if you got that impression. To be more clear, I was speaking about their topo maps. Their routeable road maps are decent; better than OpenMaps, at least for routing. I'm personally indifferent to topo maps, never having come to need them while mobile. If I've ever used them it was before heading out, on the desktop, during the planning process. *shrug* Of more value to me while mobile are trails/road maps and satellite. If I think I need topo on the road, I might pre-load map images onto the phone. It's never presented itself as a priority for any of the trips I've done in the past 3 years. All that said, we're going around in circles. So moving forward, is it safe to say that our common ground, what we can all agree on is that: * the best dedicated GPSrs are better than the best smartphones (in terms of speed and accuracy) (this is also the consensus I've seen through this thread to directly respond to the OP) and * the worst GPSr is not better than the best smartphone. * an average dedicated GPSr would fair better than an average smartphone. * 'extreme' caching doesn't require a dedicated GPSr (though it could be dumb not to have one with you) * if going out away from urban environments, away from civilization in general, especially distant wilderness, it's undoubtedly a good idea to have at least one dedicated GPSr and one mobile phone (and extra batteries) * dedicated GPSrs and smartphones (primarily higher end smartphones) have their strengths. * regardless of device, every individual should be appropriately prepared when going on a hiking trip. * regardless of device, every individual placing a cache should test and verify waypoints by multiple methods to sufficiently ensure accurate coordinates for other cachers. * the ideal geocaching combination is both a quality a GPSr and quality smartphone, and a honed geosense. I think we're all in agreement on the technical capabilities of different classes of GPS devices. I don't think we're in agreement on who would use what, where, when, and why - and that isn't relevant to the thread. Edited May 8, 2012 by thebruce0 Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I have yet to see an experienced hiker using a smartphone. Maybe you're my first exception. Perhaps I am. But again it depends on how you are defining "experienced". Though as you said, how is that germane to the discussion about GPS device quality? Neither my hiking experience, nor your opinion about hikers who use smartphones is relevant. All that is is whether there are smartphones that are capable of accomplishing such hikes, and beyond that, whether any particular individual is comfortable with whatever effort is needed to accomplish said hikes with the device. Then again, you haven't provided your experience level, even after requesting and receiving mine. I have, quite often, describing the environments I've cached in, and having been only the past few years since I started geocaching are also the places I've hiked the most in. Numerous forest hikes, 20-40km hikes, hikes through caves, on desert, sailing over open water, with and without cell coverage, never with topo maps, sometimes pre-planning using custom trailmaps and software - but all using either the 3GS or 4S while mobile, and in the more extreme circumstances, as group caching events with others also carrying either smartphones or dedicated GPSrs, often providing opportunities to compare capabilities. That's my experience. You've provided examples of your experience. But you haven't defined "experienced hiker" in the context of your claim that "experienced hikers don't use a smartphone". Everyone I've seen and known that reaches a certain level of experience (not all that high) will opt to go to a dedicated device because it's just plain makes sense / is easier to use, and all the other reasons I and others have noted. If you haven't reached that level of experience to understand why, then you really have no business commenting that it's not true. Another nice subversive insult. Please define "experience", and "not all that high". You hang around different people, and obviously have a very different sample set to pull your opinion from. That's fine. My experience is quite different. "easier to use" is quite subjective depending on who you ask. You seem to imply that no one with even a small amount of experience would go hiking with only a smartphone. 1) I know that to not be true and 2) see above re qualifying "experience" and the generic "smartphone". I'm certain he'd be willing to discuss his mapping project with fellow trail mappers' date=' seems like you have very similar goals if not exactly the same His email is on the site and his caching name is northernpenguin. OIC: I thought it was someone more of an expert in smartphone mapping apps. As far as I know, no. I'm sorry if you got that impression. To be more clear, I was speaking about their topo maps. Their routeable road maps are decent; better than OpenMaps, at least for routing. I'm personally indifferent to topo maps, never having come to need them while mobile. If I've ever used them it was before heading out, on the desktop, during the planning process. *shrug* Of more value to me while mobile are trails/road maps and satellite. If I think I need topo on the road, I might pre-load map images onto the phone. It's never presented itself as a priority for any of the trips I've done in the past 3 years. All that said, we're going around in circles. So moving forward, is it safe to say that our common ground, what we can all agree on is that: * the best dedicated GPSrs are better than the best smartphones (in terms of speed and accuracy) (this is also the consensus I've seen through this thread to directly respond to the OP) and * the worst GPSr is not better than the best smartphone. * an average dedicated GPSr would fair better than an average smartphone. * 'extreme' caching doesn't require a dedicated GPSr (though it could be dumb not to have one with you) * if going out away from urban environments, away from civilization in general, especially distant wilderness, it's undoubtedly a good idea to have at least one dedicated GPSr and one mobile phone (and extra batteries) * dedicated GPSrs and smartphones (primarily higher end smartphones) have their strengths. * regardless of device, every individual should be appropriately prepared when going on a hiking trip. * regardless of device, every individual placing a cache should test and verify waypoints by multiple methods to sufficiently ensure accurate coordinates for other cachers. * the ideal geocaching combination is both a quality a GPSr and quality smartphone, and a honed geosense. I think we're all in agreement on the technical capabilities of different classes of GPS devices. I don't think we're in agreement on who would use what, where, when, and why - and that isn't relevant to the thread. Topo maps are important to others. Me for example. So just settle down and let everyone have a turn. I would say that on thing that experienced hikers do is use topo maps on a regular basis, including during a hike. For many different reasons. Of course, we have a lot of elevation differences in the PNW. Though I use them in the desert SW too. And sailing too (yep I sail. yep topo maps are useful for sailing) I note that you like to attack my opinions yet feel free to post gobs of your own. What's relevant to this thread is what people are talking about and it certainly isn't up for you to decide alone. The fact that you had to have someone else prepare maps for you confirms how cumbersome I've been saying the process is. Once that is worked out, smartphones will close the gap with dedicated units. I could respond to more of your comments, including things in your list that you say we agree on but don't. I don't feel compelled to do so and I highly doubt anyone else is enjoying or finding value in this either. Also, if you believe that somehow the person that types more wins, you'd be wrong. In fact, the way this discussion keeps going, we'll all losing. Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) I have yet to see an experienced hiker using a smartphone. Maybe you're my first exception. So, whats your definition of an experienced hiker? Because people have also told me that I'm not considered a serious geocacher if I use a smartphone... Edited May 8, 2012 by JesandTodd Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) I have yet to see an experienced hiker using a smartphone. Maybe you're my first exception. So, whats your definition of an experienced hiker? How does one define experience for anything? It's pretty much the same. There is a definite though probably very fuzzy line between less experienced and more experienced hikers. Note that I never said anything about the value of the different experience levels of hikers; we all start out with none and work our way from there. By experienced, I mean include more of the following: enough time on trail and talked and researched enough, to understand that it takes and how to take care of oneself, and be prepared to do so, and have done so, no matter what happens in the situation they are putting themselves into; they know what their limits are, how close they are to them, and know when they are starting to over commit; they can judge terrain and find routes off trail if necessary and navigate them successfully and with confidence. Though also hard to quantify, signs or clues I see that would indicate a more experienced hiker include: Carrying enough gear Usually carrying more gear Not carrying too much weight More situation appropriate gear Their gear fits well More overall wear on their gear Better overall quality of gear (meaning they've invested in it appropriately, not just bought the most expensive which is a dead give away) Gear for function over style Readily accessible water Readily accessible whistle Readily accessible navigation (map and compass in reachable pocket, GPSr in plain view on pack) Things well secured but not over secured It's also a lot about how they carry themselves; you can usually tell who is more comfortable on the trail. Talking with them is easier, I can usually tell in a few sentences. I just saw your edit so I'm editing too and this: Seriousness and experience are too different things in my mind. Serious means a level of commitment while experience means wisdom out of practice. Sounds like they mean that you aren't up to their level and can only do so if you do or have certain things that they define; like a high school click. I was coming from the opposite, I've made note of the things of things I see on hikers of a certain level of experience, because they've learned what works, and tend towards certain things that work, and I am sharing those observations. Hiking can be certainly be done with a smartphone. But after a while you'd almost certainly find that a dedicated unit is the better option. Edited May 8, 2012 by _Shaddow_ Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Ahh. I guess I'm not a serious hiker then. My whistle is all the way in my bag... Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Ahh. I guess I'm not a serious hiker then. My whistle is all the way in my bag... Your being funny yes? Also, see my revision to my last post about the difference between serious and experienced. A whistle is singling device that is less effort to use and carries further then voice. When you need it, you may not be able to reach it in your pack, or you may not get to it fast enough to be useful. It's better to have it in a location where you can get to it and use it with one hand: ie high on the front of your pack. Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Yes, being funny (snarky even). But yes, it's in my bag. I can survive a few days with what's in my bag, but I don't wear it all up front all the time while day hiking. Besides, that's where my pepper spray is. Btw, thanks for the help earlier with NW Topos. It just finally finished and it worked! Also, see my revision to my last post about the difference between serious and experienced. I didn't even realize I used those two words interchangeably in my prior post, my bad. No then, I don't consider myself experienced. Edited May 8, 2012 by JesandTodd Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I've paid attention and noted the 'Troublemaker' under your aviator hehe Pepper spray is a good one, I'm starting to carry that myself. Mostly for dogs. All hiking is day hiking; overnight is backpacking Great to hear! Now you're on your way to get http://coord.info/GC1ZP26 Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Now you're on your way to get http://coord.info/GC1ZP26 Whew! That was a good laugh! Maybe next year Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 hehe Well, I'm out of here to continue my research into smartphone apps and mapsets. I'm sure we'll cross on the trail sometime and I'll of course be watching your progress on my ele challenge. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Also, if you believe that somehow the person that types more wins, you'd be wrong. *sigh* Of course it's not about who "types more". I was trying to find common ground about what we agree on that doesn't have to do with subjective opinions. Quote blocks are also space hogs. I note that you like to attack my opinions yet feel free to post gobs of your own. Attack? Disagree with some, yes, and explain why and ask for more background, and even agree to disagree on some. If I am attacking then I am but pawing at glass. You have no obligation to respond. Topo maps are important to others. Me for example. So just settle down and let everyone have a turn. When did I try to stop anyone having a turn? Did you read what I typed? I never said topo maps are not important. I said "I'm personally indifferent to topo maps, never having come to need them while mobile." How does that equate to me saying they're not important? Does my not having needed them while mobile imply they're somehow less valuable? My not using them while mobile doesn't mean I don't use them at all. You've now explained at least that not using them means a lack of experience in your opinion. That's great that you use them. I'm happy for you. Were we hiking on unknown terrain and I had no topo maps with me, your experience and possession of them would be invaluable, possibly life-saving. The question then becomes, would an experienced hiker go hiking on unknown terrain without topo maps, or even hike on very rugged terrain without having at least studied the region's topography? In that context, I might agree. I appreciate you qualifying "experienced hiker" (see below), however it's a "no true scotsman" argument. It's like saying an "experienced programmer" uses linux, or an "experienced graphic artist" uses a Mac. Topographic maps are a tool. They have their uses. It's not a qualifier for "experience", but hey that's my opinion. And like Jess, it appears we're not experienced hikers in your opinion, along with anyone else who hikes without using topo maps. I'm fine with that. Thank you for laying that out so we know where you're coming from. Perhaps now we need to qualify "hike" =P By experienced, I mean include more of the following: enough time on trail and talked and researched enough, to understand that it takes and how to take care of oneself, and be prepared to do so, and have done so, no matter what happens in the situation they are putting themselves into; they know what their limits are, how close they are to them, and know when they are starting to over commit; they can judge terrain and find routes off trail if necessary and navigate them successfully and with confidence. This is good, I like this. As a whole, this certainly describes an experienced hiker. I disagree that topo map use is required to be an experienced hiker, but someone who does understand and use topo maps can certainly have experience. I'd say the above paragraph describes a smart, prepared hiker. Heck, if one can be an experienced hiker with only paper maps, and since you can get topographic maps on a smartphone, it is possible to be an experienced hiker by your definition while using a smartphone, even without GPS. Hiking can be certainly be done with a smartphone. But after a while you'd almost certainly find that a dedicated unit is the better option. Thankfully, no one (still) here seems to disagree with that. For the record, I enjoy hiking to the degree I regularly hike (as I've expounded earlier), and I have much experience at that level of hiking. I consider myself an experienced hiker in that regard, which demonstrates the heated nature of the term - it may be one thing to one person, and something else to another. If I start doing more extreme hiking in the deep wilderness (for which I would most definitely prepare, likely even studying those dreaded topo maps!), I may well inadvertently cross that line into Shaddow's "experienced hiker" classification. Until then, as they say, "whatevs". No then, I don't consider myself experienced. We inexperienced hikers and serious geocachers should go hike-caching sometime Just had a wonderful 27km hike for a multi-cache collecting another 25 caches en route this past weekend. Beautiful weather, great company, great fun! How I wish southern Ontario had a mountain to climb Also, Shaddow, I was sincere in that your elevation challenge looks like fun, and in wondering if it would even get published under today's guidelines. Were I anywhere near, I'd certainly have taken it up. Edited May 8, 2012 by thebruce0 Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) You really read what you want to read into my posts and your interpretation obviously pricks you somehow. Either that or you have more interest in debating than actually helping people learn about the topic. In either case, your posts are focused more on you rather than the subject. My level of hiking experience, and how I define hiking experience, is something that you explicitly asked for, I guess because you wanted to judge how valuable my opinions were. Maybe you didn't like what you found because now your trying to use my statements against me. Fine, if that's what you need. This tangent seems to center around my statement that the more experienced hikers I see and know on the trail use a GPSr instead of a smartphone. And we're not talking about people unskilled with smartphones, as you tried to imply earlier, many are 'softies and other techies, including a few that actually design the phones and apps. Of course, many don't use either but instead map and compass. In any case, I stick to my statement 100%: once to a certain point (not using the word experience here since it's touchy) then hikers will naturally give up their smartphone for a dedicated unit. I'll now add that those that don't have some other agenda. Like proving a smartphone can be used. Enjoy your smartphone (iPhone yes?), it seems to work for you at this point, and you clearly are attached to it. This whole issue about hiking experience is but a small part of my comments blown out of proportion and as I've said, the smartphone certainly has it's place for urban caching. My previous posts go into much more detail, no need to repeat them again. Edited May 8, 2012 by _Shaddow_ Link to comment
robertlipe Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Moderator note This conversation seems to be covering little new ground and is bordering on the edge of personal attacks and insults between a few participants. Please get this conversation back into the land of technical merit and away from moderators needing to intervene. Thank you. Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Adding something that I said before and has since been lost and perhaps it will help us move on: I first came to the conclusion that dedicated units are the better choice from my own experiences. I tried using mine for about a year and a half in between owning an eTrex and a 60CSx. The result is that a dedicated unit is hands down better for the reasons I have previous given. The rest of my statements, those which you are focusing on, are about my observations that others have come to the same conclusion on their own. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) I had a few more quick, direct responses addressing the whole "experienced hikers" shtick again, but as per robertlipe's comment, decided that's all tangential. So one final comment on the matter: Shaddow: What you said just now is not what I was debating against, and is more along the lines of what I was looking for. Clarification. "the more experienced hikers that you see" - that's more a statement of observation than opinion. My observation is also that I see and know experienced hikers who use a smartphone. So, either we see and know different levels of experienced hikers, or someone's observations are wrong. I favour the former. Though none of it has any bearing on the question at hand. Enjoy your smartphone (iPhone yes?), it seems to work for you at this point, and you clearly are attached to it. I'm attached to it insofar as that when I find a situation where my iPhone 4S is insufficient for my hiking and/or geocaching purposes, then I'd consider adding another more capable tool to my repository, and that's the testimony I stick with. Even if it ends up being a high-end GPSr that has oodles of topographic maps. And I very much look forward to at some point getting out into a more wild environment for geocaching. We'll find out then if my 4S is insufficient (no I wouldn't do it alone without proper preparation, such as having a dedicated gps, as per previous comments) * For the record, my most "wilderness" hiking trip was a 5/5, Bushwacker GC2B27, for which I used the 4S (and we had other GPSrs). It's not the jungles of the Amazon, but it's sufficiently 'wild', imo, to have some valid input on the matter of smartphone use in the wild . But that was winter. The 'desert' cache I keep referring to is GCWD13. I'm also intending to go for a weekend canoeing trip this year to log the Matchedash series. Either that or you have more interest in debating than actually helping people learn about the topic. I have more interest in picking out objective points in the discussion about iPhone use to help people learn about the topic, than debating opinion. Man, aren't discussion forums fuuuuuun? And finally... I first came to the conclusion that dedicated units are the better choice from my own experiences. I tried using mine for about a year and a half in between owning an eTrex and a 60CSx. The result is that a dedicated unit is hands down better for the reasons I have previous given. Yes. Forgetting the whole "experienced hikers" thing, this we have never disagreed on. *points to the numerous comments throughout the thread stating that yes there are dedicated GPS devices that are better than the iPhone (as ambiguous as those labels are) So let's move on, shall we? ETA: Also quite interested in how tonight's local meetup for OSM enthusiasts will go. Edited May 8, 2012 by thebruce0 Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Ah, so it was my iPhone comment I'm thinking the difference in our local terrain is part of it. Looking through the pictures, we find harder stuff within our city parks. Seriously. I also noticed that it's basically flat therefore no real need for topos. In one of our parks you can get 1,200 feet elevation. 30 minutes from Seattle and there's a very popular hike that's 3,600 feet. So once again, all the experienced hikers I've known, talked with, or observed go with a dedicated unit. To the OP, if hiking is in your plans, and you live near to mountains in the west or similar terrain, I would suggest going that way. Still looking for an mapping expert, and one very familiar with smartphone mapping apps, to help get mapsets to smartphone users. Feel free to post here or IM or email me directly. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Yay! Examples of 'harder stuff' in your city parks? I'm interested to see... We don't have mountains, but we have plenty of variation in terrain otherwise, especially at the Niagara escarpment. Don't cut our terrain that short Actually, I should also add that I have had some taste of mountainous terrain, though not truly away from civilization, during a visit to Banff (GC134E and others in the region are beautiful). I've also cached in Portland, which has a decent amount of in-city terrain variation. But in-city terrain isn't really a great sample anyway since it's generally public parks, well-traveled with maps and routes already laid out clearly. ...unless some of Seattle's in-city parks are, terrain-wise (mountains excepted), more like our less-visited rural conservation areas... in which case, Edited May 8, 2012 by thebruce0 Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I wouldn't do that. In fact, I grow up around the upper midwest, including Michigan with time in the UP so know what it's like there. I have also traveled to all 50 states so have a general feeling for areas. Have sailed the Northern Channel of your lovely province. Looks like your south of that area though. Things don't change much around those parts and looking at the pictures on the caches and satellite photos it looks about the same, though a little wetter during the summer. Generally rolling hills and generally open deciduous forest. More conifer as you go north, but still open down low. I can see a smartphone working well there, basically need to know where you are and the direction to go to your target. The geocaching map is a great way to find caches in our parks. You could also take a look at jcacher15's caches, he likes to place terrain caches; most are relatively very short but it gets the idea across. To get a full taste of our terrain, take a look up the I90 corridor, Snoqualmie River Middle Fork and pretty much anywhere on the western side of the Cascades. If anyone in or visiting the Seattle area and wants an adventure to test a GPSr vs a smartphone, feel free to contact me. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 No doubt, the continent's western portion is filled with rugged and mountainous terrain. Banff, southern Cali, and Portland have demonstrated that for me... but while it's nothing like mountains, I'd highly recommend checking out the Niagara Escarpment system and its terrain caches, and the Bruce Trail (800km, Niagara to Tobermorey). The Bruce Peninsula has some amazing geological sites for hiking. Each are natural jewels in this region, with high terrain caching and rugged hiking routes. But again, not mountains Some of the in-city terrain caches you're referring to seem quite comparable to caches in Hamilton and area along the escarpment. The Georgian Bay is a big sailing attraction, but another thing I'd love to experience sometime is to sail the St. Lawrence, though that's upwards of ~500km, heh. I'd say the only thing Ontario's missing are mountains, deserts, and amazonian jungles - everything else is covered (that's Ontarian pride speaking ) Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'd say the only thing Ontario's missing are mountains, deserts, and amazonian jungles - everything else is covered (that's Ontarian pride speaking ) Pretty much what it's like here, we do have temperate rain forest. But the desert-ish-ly type is in the eastern part of the state Are you still feeling the need to continue this off-topic discussion? I'm hoping that you've gotten what you need out of it so we can, as you have said, get past it and move on. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Indeed. Off-topic, but at least interesting and positive. I'm done. Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 last word (sorry, couldn't resist =P now I'm really done) Link to comment
+_Shaddow_ Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) last word (sorry, couldn't resist =P now I'm really done) It's ok, it was expected Edited May 8, 2012 by _Shaddow_ Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I have the last word (now that I'm finally getting my breakfast) I'd field test vs your Garmin. I *have* field tested my iPhone against my Garmin. We have the same Garmin. Don't think I could keep up with you on the trails though.,, So sometime in the future, when I'm back to hiking real trails, I'll show you how I use my iPhone in the field. But first, I should eat Link to comment
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