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Border corners

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How does a category for Waymarking the meeting points (corners) for State or Country borders?

 

These could be:

1. Where borders meet in a square corner.

2. Where borders end at the ocean.

 

Normally there is some sort of interesting post or monument marking the location.

 

I'm thinking of travelling out to Cameron Corner and Haddon Corner in western Queensland over Easter (this is where the state borders of Queensland / New South Wales / South Australia meet) and have realised when I get there I'll have nowhere to waymark them.

 

The only category which comes close is Border Crossings which requires a highway which crosses the border. Not common for these locations.

 

Here in Australia there are 11 locations which would be valid based on the above criteria. I can imagine that in the US and Europe there would be hundreds. It is a truly Global idea.

 

As always I value any feedback and will also need willing officers to help it get started.

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Four Corner is the famous one in the US. Let's see Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona. That's the only one for states. There are many for counties, but they usually have no markers or signs. If expanded to a junction of three, there would be more. And, I'm not sure what you mean by boundaries that meet the ocean. Do you mean the border of the states of Oregon and California along the coast, for example? I'm not sure these two types go together.

 

So, I see lack of prevalence as an issue, and lack of clear identification of the point, in many cases, as an issue.

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I've been thinking about this category since I posted our local tripoint to the Official Local Tourist Attractions category. I have the complete proposal in my head and I could present it here in a couple of hours.

 

Meanwhile you could check if your corners are listed as tourist attractions on an official web site of a neighboring town.

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This is what I had in mind. What do you think?

 

Tripoints

 

Description:

 

A tripoint is a geographical point at which the borders of three countries or subnational entities meet.

 

Expanded Description:

 

From Wikipedia: "A tripoint, trijunction, or triple point (also, if inexactly, known as a tri-border area), is a geographical point at which the borders of three countries or subnational entities meet.

 

There are currently 157 international tripoints (i.e., tricountry points) by some accounts, and as many as 176 (or even 207) by others, but in any case these counts include a few condominial and buffered trijunctions that are technically tri lines or tri areas rather than simply tripoints. Nearly half of these usually exact but sometimes slightly indefinite places are situated not on dry land but in rivers or lakes or seas. When on dry land, the exact tripoints are usually demarcated by the center or vertex of special (but highly various) markers or pillars. Often and increasingly such places are also the sites of sometimes extensive monumental memorials and expositions."

 

We are looking for tripoints or multipoints on national or state (province, region...) level. Places where the borders of three (or more) countries or states meet (this includes two states and another country). Historic tripoints are also welcome but cannot be mixed; a place where a current border crosses a historic border is not what we are looking for.

 

Smaller sub-division levels like counties or municipalities are accepted for those rare cases where the number of borders is five or higher.

 

If the tripoint is located in a body of water, the location of the marker will be accepted, if there is none try to find the closest point on dry land that can be accessed.

 

Don't bring youself in trouble! In many countries it is illegal to cross a border when it is not a designated control point.

 

Instructions for Posting a Tripoints Waymark:

 

Find a site that is a tripoint and obtain the coordinates. Describe the location and the marker. Tell us the history of this place. When was the border established? Is there a monument? Who erected it? The more, the better.

 

Pictures: A minimum of two, one of the marker (if there is any) and a general overview, more pictures are welcome.

 

Instructions for Visiting a Waymark in this Category:

 

To log a visit, please post a photo of the location. If you had no camera with you, try to create a picture with your words.

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Sounds interesting. Maybe it could really be a new idea for a new category.

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Great work fi67 that description really nails it.

 

I was also open to expanding the category to where the border meets the ocean as quite often there is a cairn/marker etc. This idea is really to expand the prevalence of the waymarks.

 

There is the odd occasion where only 2 regional borders "square off" into a point (e.g. Haddon Corner S 25 59.787 E 140 59.961). There won't be a high number of these but they should be an allowed exception.

 

What are your thoughts?

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Great work fi67 that description really nails it.

 

I was also open to expanding the category to where the border meets the ocean as quite often there is a cairn/marker etc. This idea is really to expand the prevalence of the waymarks.

I am not sure about these. I originally had not thought about them and they are not tripoints in a strict sense. But if there are markers, they could maybe be included. What do others think about it?

There is the odd occasion where only 2 regional borders "square off" into a point (e.g. Haddon Corner S 25 59.787 E 140 59.961). There won't be a high number of these but they should be an allowed exception.

 

What are your thoughts?

Uhm, this is a real corner. Something like "a point where a border line changes its direction in an angle of 90 degrees or more"? I see this point is somewhat special, but I think it would lead to a massive prevalence problem. I try to illustrate what I mean.

This is how the national border line looks like 3 kilometers west of where I live:

borders1.jpg

 

This is 5 kilometers to the north:

borders2.jpg

 

And this is a really complicated area between Begium and the Netherlands:

borders3.jpg

 

I could easily find 100 or more corners on national level and maybe more on state level within a single hiking day. So from a global point of view I would say no to corners. Other opinions?

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Great work fi67 that description really nails it.

 

I was also open to expanding the category to where the border meets the ocean as quite often there is a cairn/marker etc. This idea is really to expand the prevalence of the waymarks.

I am not sure about these. I originally had not thought about them and they are not tripoints in a strict sense. But if there are markers, they could maybe be included. What do others think about it?

There is the odd occasion where only 2 regional borders "square off" into a point (e.g. Haddon Corner S 25 59.787 E 140 59.961). There won't be a high number of these but they should be an allowed exception.

 

What are your thoughts?

Uhm, this is a real corner. Something like "a point where a border line changes its direction in an angle of 90 degrees or more"? I see this point is somewhat special, but I think it would lead to a massive prevalence problem. I try to illustrate what I mean.

This is how the national border line looks like 3 kilometers west of where I live:

borders1.jpg

 

This is 5 kilometers to the north:

borders2.jpg

 

And this is a really complicated area between Begium and the Netherlands:

borders3.jpg

 

I could easily find 100 or more corners on national level and maybe more on state level within a single hiking day. So from a global point of view I would say no to corners. Other opinions?

 

Yeah I see your point re the corners. In Australia we only have one and there is an interesting cairn marking the spot (because it's pretty remote) see below: 26141post.jpg

 

I would guess this one is fairly unique.

 

I'd be interested in hearing from other waymarkers if they have any more input.

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Wow. Rapid prototyping here. My only suggestion—there must be a marker of some description.

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I have created a group: When Shall We Three Meet Again (It's always good to start with a Shakespeare quote B) ).

 

Now I am looking for a couple of officers, preferably experienced waymarkers, from different time zones would also be nice.

 

Back to the open questions:

 

1. Places where borders meet the ocean:

I am leaning towards Yea, but not cocksure. Your opinions?

 

2. Corners (as in the example above):

Theses places do not really belong here according to the initial definition, but they are something special and there are not too many of those: One in Australia, a handful in the US (e.g. UT/WY, NM/TX, CO/NE), two or three in Canada and Argentina and a couple spread all over Africa, usually in very remote locations.

 

So we could give them a home in this category as well. I am looking for your opinion, and even more for a intelligent definition of them, especially of the limits.

 

Please give me your opinion about the category in general and the two unclear points in specific.

 

The primary vote is open now. :D

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To answer both questions—if there is a plaque or marker, that recognises the 'corner' then yes, it can be waymarked. If no marker then the corner lacks public recognition, which can be taken as an indication that it is not sufficiently significant to be worthy of a waymark.

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To answer both questions—if there is a plaque or marker, that recognises the 'corner' then yes, it can be waymarked. If no marker then the corner lacks public recognition, which can be taken as an indication that it is not sufficiently significant to be worthy of a waymark.

 

I agree with the marker requirement for corners. I disagree on this if it is a tripoint especially for those that are water related. My home state I believe has 7 tripoints but all but two are either in the Mississippi River or the Missouri River thus they do not have markers. (the two in the southwest have markers)

Edited by BruceS
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Tripoints on state level are valid, with or without marker.

 

Markers for 'corners' are a good start. We have border stones here every fifty steps or so. So these markers would have to be something special. That's what I'm looking for. I know it when I see one, but I am searching for a clear wording for officers and posting waymarkers likewise to avoid vagueness from the beginning.

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Tripoints on state level are valid, with or without marker.

 

Markers for 'corners' are a good start. We have border stones here every fifty steps or so. So these markers would have to be something special. That's what I'm looking for. I know it when I see one, but I am searching for a clear wording for officers and posting waymarkers likewise to avoid vagueness from the beginning.

 

I think we are really on the right track here.

 

Perhaps if we add to the description something like: "Locations where 2 borders create a 90 degree angle AND there is an interesting marker or cairn at the point will also be accepted."

 

I've just joined the group and obviously am happy to be an officer.

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Haddon's Corner would be eligible for inclusion in the Aust/NZ Benchmarks category as would Poeppel, Cameron's and the Surveyor-General's Corner(s) (wouldn't they??). I suppose the feature of the corners is there remoteness and difficulty of access. At best visits would be few and leaving a cache at site isn't the best idea because of maintenence issues. The "corners" in Australia are rather famous survey marks, but in my being a bit dry, I believe we already have a category (eminently suited for the purpose) for their inclusion.

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Haddon's Corner would be eligible for inclusion in the Aust/NZ Benchmarks category as would Poeppel, Cameron's and the Surveyor-General's Corner(s) (wouldn't they??). I suppose the feature of the corners is there remoteness and difficulty of access. At best visits would be few and leaving a cache at site isn't the best idea because of maintenence issues. The "corners" in Australia are rather famous survey marks, but in my being a bit dry, I believe we already have a category (eminently suited for the purpose) for their inclusion.

 

Yes you are correct that the pillars at these corners in Australia are also benchmarks (part of the 100KM network). This does make them eligible for the Aust/NZ benchmark category.

 

I guess like Fi67 points out above they could also be included in the tourist attractions category. I'm not sure whether this makes the category redundant though. Are monuments outside of Australia also benchmarks? I'm not sure. Also what about a tri-point which has no mark (like BruceS's example where the point is on a body of water)?

 

I think these locations are unique enough (and prevalent enough globally) they probably deserve their own category.

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To answer both questions—if there is a plaque or marker, that recognises the 'corner' then yes, it can be waymarked. If no marker then the corner lacks public recognition, which can be taken as an indication that it is not sufficiently significant to be worthy of a waymark.

 

I agree with the marker requirement for corners. I disagree on this if it is a tripoint especially for those that are water related. My home state I believe has 7 tripoints but all but two are either in the Mississippi River or the Missouri River thus they do not have markers. (the two in the southwest have markers)

This post has been edited by BruceS: Yesterday, 12:18 PM

---------

 

BruceS

Talking about these rivers, are you suggesting that a waymark be made on water? I ask this without any flippancy (or buoyancy) as I in fact did this for a river CONFLUENCE.

 

My thinking about the necessity for a marker is based on the need to correctly identify the boundary location. Are these boundaries known to a sufficiently high degree of accuracy to allow a way marker to determine the location and make a waymark, without a marker? We can approach a boundary looking at google maps on our smart phones and stop when the lines meet, but is this good enough? A marker provides a single, unambiguous location.

 

Having said all of this I now recall that I have a province boundary marker from Cambodia which shows the meeting point of three provinces--so I am on board.

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I know some locations where the real tripoint is on water and they have a marker, pillar or monument nearby.

 

From my original proposal:

"If the tripoint is located in a body of water, the location of the marker will be accepted, if there is none try to find the closest point on dry land that can be accessed."

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To answer both questions—if there is a plaque or marker, that recognises the 'corner' then yes, it can be waymarked. If no marker then the corner lacks public recognition, which can be taken as an indication that it is not sufficiently significant to be worthy of a waymark.

 

I agree with the marker requirement for corners. I disagree on this if it is a tripoint especially for those that are water related. My home state I believe has 7 tripoints but all but two are either in the Mississippi River or the Missouri River thus they do not have markers. (the two in the southwest have markers)

This post has been edited by BruceS: Yesterday, 12:18 PM

---------

 

BruceS

Talking about these rivers, are you suggesting that a waymark be made on water? I ask this without any flippancy (or buoyancy) as I in fact did this for a river CONFLUENCE.

 

My thinking about the necessity for a marker is based on the need to correctly identify the boundary location. Are these boundaries known to a sufficiently high degree of accuracy to allow a way marker to determine the location and make a waymark, without a marker? We can approach a boundary looking at google maps on our smart phones and stop when the lines meet, but is this good enough? A marker provides a single, unambiguous location.

 

Having said all of this I now recall that I have a province boundary marker from Cambodia which shows the meeting point of three provinces--so I am on board.

 

Interested in joining the group so we can get this thing to a group vote? B)

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I know some locations where the real tripoint is on water and they have a marker, pillar or monument nearby.

 

From my original proposal:

"If the tripoint is located in a body of water, the location of the marker will be accepted, if there is none try to find the closest point on dry land that can be accessed."

 

Another thought on this is that if there is no marker it would be best if the waymark is on the side of the river where there are two borders that meet rather than the opposite side where none of the borders exist. I realize there will be instances where all borders are rivers. (i.e. Iowa-Missouri-Illinois and Illinois-Kentucky-Missouri)

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I have I first draft of the category page.

 

Tell me what you think. What can be made better? I am also interested in small details like typos.

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Well done!

 

We should add the "Naming Convention: Name of Statue - City, State or Country".

 

Regards, lumbricus

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Well done!

 

We should add the "Naming Convention: Name of Statue - City, State or Country".

 

Regards, lumbricus

I like well defined naming conventions, but we have a problem here. Depending on how you define it, we have either none or three correct countries or states.

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Well done!

 

We should add the "Naming Convention: Name of Statue - City, State or Country".

 

Regards, lumbricus

I like well defined naming conventions, but we have a problem here. Depending on how you define it, we have either none or three correct countries or states.

 

Sorry, it was too early when i wrote this ;)

:anicute:

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Well done!

 

We should add the "Naming Convention: Name of Statue - City, State or Country".

 

Regards, lumbricus

I like well defined naming conventions, but we have a problem here. Depending on how you define it, we have either none or three correct countries or states.

 

Sorry, it was too early when i wrote this ;)

:anicute:

 

I added this to the posting instructions:

"We know that the usual naming conventions will not work for many tripoints. But we expect something meaningful that fits well into a waymarks list like a search result. No funny games, please!"

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My first thoughts:

Looks and sounds good. Did not know there were so many.

 

description

To find and record all national, and second political level, border tripoints and multipoints.

 

You mention sub-divisions with five or more boundaries. This means, for example, if five municipalities meet at a point then this location could be included?

 

I would make these three mandatory:

Poilitical Entities

Type of Location

Current or Historic

These to me seem essential. If they are not included formally then the waymark would not be adequately documented.

 

Question of documentation. Easy enough for nations and states, but for historical and municipalities not necessarily so much. Some requirement requesting a reference or documentation to attest for the the accuracy of the waymark is needed.

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Great!

 

I will add your suggestions soon.

 

Municipality Five- or more points: Yes, is this paragraph not clear enough?

 

Documentation: There is a URL variable for further documentation, and you would not be able to find a historic tripoint if there was no documentation and no marker. If it's not documented (I guess there are many of those) it will not be found and posted. IMHO this is enough.

 

One last thing (hopefully): Please check also the language! I am not a native English speaker, so I am sure there must be something that should be corrected.

 

If there are no more additional suggestions, I will send the category to officer review next morning.

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fi67

I did find the statement about municipalities just a little unclear, also I understand your thinking about the historic tripoints. I do feel that the requirement for a reference should be mandatory.

 

I made some changes to the English. Overall the original was good, just some idiom and my idiomatic suggestions. Again, a great idea.

 

------

 

based upon Wikipedia (March 2012): A tripoint (also known as a: trijunction, triple point, and, inexactly, as a tri-border area), is a geographical point at which the borders of three countries or sub-national entities intersect.

* (I feel that sub-national, should be hyphenated, removing the quotation marks allows for changes. I am being pedantic.)

 

* re wikipedia: I would include the date of the reference. Wiki (as with all things) changes over time, best to document the date of the reference (my academic past emerging here). Also the wiki entry is not in good English. I feel reducing the wiki quote to a simple definition, and then re-writing the rest of the text produces a better result.

 

Do not confuse tripoints with trigpoints; this is something different.

(I don't like abbreviations in formal documents)

 

There are between 157 and over 200 known international tripoints—the number depending on the exact definition. At the state/provincial level there are several thousand. Many of these national points, and some state level, are recognised by specific markers.

 

We are primarily looking for tripoints at the national and state (province, region...) level. Places where the borders of three (or more) countries or states meet (a mix of state and national is acceptable). Historic tripoints are also welcome, but these cannot be a mix of contemporary and historic. For example, a place where a current border crosses a historic border is not what we are looking for.

 

If the tripoint is located on a body of water, then the location of the marker is acceptable. If there is no marker, create your waymark at the closest point of permanently dry land to the tripoint.

(group all the info about tripoints together)

 

There are three exceptions to the above criteria.

First, while normally only national and second level borders are sought, if there is a location where five or more lower level boundaries meet (e.g. county, municipiality), these junctions will be accepted due to their rarity.

 

Second, although not tripoints, locations where a borderline meets the sea are welcome.

 

Third, locations where 2 straight borders meet at a 90 degree angle, AND there is an interesting marker or cairn, will be accepted.

 

* Is there an inconsistency between #2 and #3? Neither are tripoints, but #3 requires a marker, but #2 does not. Either both or neither require markers?

 

Most IMPORTANT. Don't get into trouble! Don't cross, or even approach, political borders where it is illegal (or dangerous) to do so. Check, and get permission when needed.

 

 

Instructions for Posting a Tripoints and Multipoints Waymark:

Find a site that is a tripoint and obtain the coordinates. Describe the location and the marker. Tell us the history of this place. When was the border established? Is there a monument? Who erected it? How did you reach the marker. Is there any difficulty in doing so? The more, the better.

* I am thinking here of 3rd world tripoints. Getting there can be a challenge.

 

* Let me know what you think of my suggestions.

Edited by Ianatlarge
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Second, although not tripoints, locations where a borderline meets the sea are welcome.

 

Third, locations where 2 straight borders meet at a 90 degree angle, AND there is an interesting marker or cairn, will be accepted.

 

* Is there an inconsistency between #2 and #3? Neither are tripoints, but #3 requires a marker, but #2 does not. Either both or neither require markers?

 

The requirement for a cairn/marker where the border corners is just to filter out those borders which are quite jagged (like many of the European ones).

 

I can see the benefit of keeping these consistant but obviously this will cut down the prevalence of accepted locations.

 

I think the perception of what should be accepted is probably influenced by where you live. Even if I captured all the tripoints, border corners and coastal "tripoints" in Australia there would only be 11 in total! :(

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I have worked most of your suggestions into the category description (I left the quoted wikipedia part as it was, I prefer to have it clearly separated from the rest).

 

I do not see any inconsistency between #2 and #3: #2 is no tripoint, because there are only two political entities, but there is a third area: the sea. This makes them easy to identify. On the other hand corners without a marker would be extremely difficult to find and document, and even more to judge for officers.

 

Thank you for all your valuable input! The category is no going to Officer Vote. Wish me luck for Peer Review!

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I have worked most of your suggestions into the category description (I left the quoted wikipedia part as it was, I prefer to have it clearly separated from the rest).

 

I do not see any inconsistency between #2 and #3: #2 is no tripoint, because there are only two political entities, but there is a third area: the sea. This makes them easy to identify. On the other hand corners without a marker would be extremely difficult to find and document, and even more to judge for officers.

 

Thank you for all your valuable input! The category is no going to Officer Vote. Wish me luck for Peer Review!

 

Thanks Fi67 and to all those who provided such constructive feedback. A great job has been done and it really is a credit to the overall process and the valuable part that the forums play in category creation.

 

Knock me down with a feather if this doesn't make it through Peer Review...! :laughing:

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The category is now in Peer Review.

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"Instructions for Posting a Tripoints and Multipoints Waymark:"

 

We forgot that pictures are required to post a new waymark.

But I'm sure we will add it as soon as possible...

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"Instructions for Posting a Tripoints and Multipoints Waymark:"

 

We forgot that pictures are required to post a new waymark.

But I'm sure we will add it as soon as possible...

 

Yes a rewrite of the Posting a waymark instructions is needed.

 

Also noticed that a number of people feel confused by the different waymarks permitted. Perhaps we should consider requiring a marker/cairn of some kind for ALL submissions except true International/State Tri-Points? In this way we could probably open it up to county boundary Tri-Points as well. I can't imagine many of these locations would actually have an interesting marker would they? This change would make it less confusing I guess.

 

Looks like it's on its way to becoming a viable category anyway. B)

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It looks very good at the moment.

 

There is clearly a need for clarification. I will try to improve this as soon as the category is editable again.

 

And I feel quite stupid for messing up the original posting and visiting instructions. Copy/paste should not be that difficult, one might think. ;-)

 

My ideas for clarification: All current and historic tripoints on international and first national division level are valid. In most cases there will be some kind of "marker" on site. These "markers" are not necessarily man-made; often these are river confluences, mountain peaks or something similar. If there is really nothing at all we want some documentation to prove this is the correct location.

 

All the above applies for locations where a border meets the sea.

 

Lower adminiatrative sub-division levels only are valid when the number of borders/political entities are five or higher with the same basic requirements as for the higher levels.

 

For the corners I will add some illustrations to show what we mean.

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The category has been accepted and is now active.

 

I am going to add some minor changes that hopefully will cause less confusion. Thank you all for your great support!

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