GAGB guidelines or rules?

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

Can somebody Groundspeak please confirm which of the GAGB guidelines have been officially adopted as placement rules? I am a little confused because the requirements that are listed on the Groundspeak site do not state them. From some conversations I have had with other geocachers and some reviewers there seems to be a disparity. It seems that some of the reviewers apply all the guidelines as rules, some apply a few of them but nobody can confirm (until a cache is submitted for review)the ones we need to follow.

 

Thanks

[+Pharisee]

I surely hope you're not holding your breath !!

[+Malpas Wanderer]

Can somebody Groundspeak please confirm which of the GAGB guidelines have been officially adopted as placement rules? I am a little confused because the requirements that are listed on the Groundspeak site do not state them. From some conversations I have had with other geocachers and some reviewers there seems to be a disparity. It seems that some of the reviewers apply all the guidelines as rules, some apply a few of them but nobody can confirm (until a cache is submitted for review)the ones we need to follow.

 

Thanks

 

They are merely guidelines.

 

However some permissions have been sought from landowners where the full GAGB guidelines have been negotiated into those permissions granted.

 

Meet all the GAGB guidelines that you can or all of them when necessary.

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

Can somebody Groundspeak please confirm which of the GAGB guidelines have been officially adopted as placement rules? I am a little confused because the requirements that are listed on the Groundspeak site do not state them. From some conversations I have had with other geocachers and some reviewers there seems to be a disparity. It seems that some of the reviewers apply all the guidelines as rules, some apply a few of them but nobody can confirm (until a cache is submitted for review)the ones we need to follow.

 

Thanks

 

They are merely guidelines.

 

However some permissions have been sought from landowners where the full GAGB guidelines have been negotiated into those permissions granted.

 

Meet all the GAGB guidelines that you can or all of them when necessary.

 

Thanks for the reply, although I was looking for official confirmation from Groundspeak as at present it is a little ambiguous (officially speaking).

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

Gooooooooood morning geocashers!

 

Just to update you all I have not been officially contacted. I have not officially been told that officially Groundspeak in USA say that GAGB are not rules. I have also not been told that unofficially it is suggested that if a reviewer wants to use them as rules to be punitive that is up to them. So there we have it that's about as official as I can get... by not being told officially

[+Graculus]

Gooooooooood morning geocashers!

 

Just to update you all I have not been officially contacted. I have not officially been told that officially Groundspeak in USA say that GAGB are not rules. I have also not been told that unofficially it is suggested that if a reviewer wants to use them as rules to be punitive that is up to them. So there we have it that's about as official as I can get... by not being told officially

Well it is the weekend so likely the email you sent asking for the information you wanted won't be dealt with until Monday at the earliest.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

[+Mad H@ter]

Gooooooooood morning geocashers!

 

Just to update you all I have not been officially contacted. I have not officially been told that officially Groundspeak in USA say that GAGB are not rules. I have also not been told that unofficially it is suggested that if a reviewer wants to use them as rules to be punitive that is up to them. So there we have it that's about as official as I can get... by not being told officially

Well it is the weekend so likely the email you sent asking for the information you wanted won't be dealt with until Monday at the earliest.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

Geocaching.com Knowledge Books

Been a good few days (including weekdays) since the question was raised, but to quote someone else:

 

I surely hope you're not holding your breath !!

[+NattyBooshka]

Can somebody Groundspeak please confirm which of the GAGB guidelines have been officially adopted as placement rules? I am a little confused because the requirements that are listed on the Groundspeak site do not state them. From some conversations I have had with other geocachers and some reviewers there seems to be a disparity. It seems that some of the reviewers apply all the guidelines as rules, some apply a few of them but nobody can confirm (until a cache is submitted for review)the ones we need to follow.

 

Thanks

They were meant as guidelines

 

Somewhere down they line the effectively became rules as the reviewers adopted them, and this stance became less flexible sometime later.

 

Any "guidelines" the few made after that would be better named "rules" IMO.

 

Then again, the GS site only has "guidelines" as far as I can tell...

 

So, the reality will continue to be that the guidelines are there, and most people ignore the ones that they don't want to apply to them when hiding a cache... but of course they'll tell the reviewer that the hide meets all current guidelines.

 

This is why we see caches in places where permission has certainly not been given... and lots of plastic bags with caches inside... what possesses anyone to think the latter is a good idea God only knows.

Edited September 19, 2011 by NattyBooshka

[+MrCJDL]

GAG-Who ?

 

It's like having a trade union in a workplace.. with 10 members, out of 10,000 workers....

[+Malpas Wanderer]

Can somebody Groundspeak please confirm which of the GAGB guidelines have been officially adopted as placement rules? I am a little confused because the requirements that are listed on the Groundspeak site do not state them. From some conversations I have had with other geocachers and some reviewers there seems to be a disparity. It seems that some of the reviewers apply all the guidelines as rules, some apply a few of them but nobody can confirm (until a cache is submitted for review)the ones we need to follow.

 

Thanks

 

One still wonders what the OP is trying to achieve here, or his motivations and/or grievances.

 

Please show me where any reference to placement rules feature on the Groundspeak sites, I think you will only find reference to guidelines.

You will find that most of the guidelines (core) listed are those that need to be rigidly enforced.

The Groundspeak sites are multinational and it would be foolhardy to impose guidelines which would make little sense other than in individual countries.

The GAGB guidelines were written to give best fit for UK caching.

What need is there for UK guidelines to be referenced on a multinational site? Our local reviewers are able to implement local guidelines where necessary.

The onus is on submitters to consider the guidelines when creating a listing. Give yourself a test select 100 caches at random read the pages see how many you understand at first reading try to deduce if guidelines have been adhered to.

Likewise the reviewers will only pick up or challenge guideline omissions that are clearly obvious from that written or necessary in that location.

Do you really want a less flexible arrangement?

[Sandy]

Groundspeak’s geocache guidelines apply to caches listed on Geocaching.com across the world. One of those guidelines is, “All local laws apply”. The GAGB has addressed a need to cooperate effectively with local law enforcement in the UK. That said, the additional guidelines that they have created are guidelines, rather than hard and fast rules, just as Groundspeak’s guidelines are. Each cache listing is still reviewed by a volunteer reviewer on its own merits. Volunteer reviewers may decide to address this specific aspect of a cache’s placement, but this is at their discretion. They apply their local knowledge and guidelines to each cache individually.

 

[+Mad H@ter]

Groundspeak’s geocache guidelines apply to caches listed on Geocaching.com across the world. One of those guidelines is, “All local laws apply”. The GAGB has addressed a need to cooperate effectively with local law enforcement in the UK. That said, the additional guidelines that they have created are guidelines, rather than hard and fast rules, just as Groundspeak’s guidelines are. Each cache listing is still reviewed by a volunteer reviewer on its own merits. Volunteer reviewers may decide to address this specific aspect of a cache’s placement, but this is at their discretion. They apply their local knowledge and guidelines to each cache individually.

I surely hope you're not holding your breath !!

And breath out

 

Thanks for clearing that perennial question up Sandy, now let's all get on with the game

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

GAG-Who ?

 

It's like having a trade union in a workplace.. with 10 members, out of 10,000 workers....

 

Groundspeak’s geocache guidelines apply to caches listed on Geocaching.com across the world. One of those guidelines is, “All local laws apply”.

 

The GAGB guidelines are not local laws. I thank you for taking time to answer. I pay Groundspeak a subscription not the GAGB why should they dictate the rules? I also think we are confused over the word guideline verses requirements, Groundspeak list requirements not guidelines. But taking it that the word guideline in Groundspeaks definition means requirement then the answer is simply all of the existing and any new ones that the GAGB publish. With that in mind what other minority organisations can make rules?

 

But on the other hand if you are suggesting that all of the requirements and guidelines are only optional by adoption of the reviewers again I have to ask the question how do we know the ones that are relevant?

 

Thanks

[Sandy]

GAG-Who ?

 

It's like having a trade union in a workplace.. with 10 members, out of 10,000 workers....

 

Groundspeak's geocache guidelines apply to caches listed on Geocaching.com across the world. One of those guidelines is, "All local laws apply".

 

The GAGB guidelines are not local laws. I thank you for taking time to answer. I pay Groundspeak a subscription not the GAGB why should they dictate the rules? I also think we are confused over the word guideline verses requirements, Groundspeak list requirements not guidelines. But taking it that the word guideline in Groundspeaks definition means requirement then the answer is simply all of the existing and any new ones that the GAGB publish. With that in mind what other minority organisations can make rules?

 

But on the other hand if you are suggesting that all of the requirements and guidelines are only optional by adoption of the reviewers again I have to ask the question how do we know the ones that are relevant?

 

Thanks

 

We understand that GAGB guidelines are not local laws. What I said was, "The GAGB has addressed a need to cooperate effectively with local law enforcement in the UK." We appreciate their actions that addressed a need, and simultaneously empower our volunteers to make informed judgments case by case.

 

Further, for a cache listing there are both 'requirements' and 'guidelines'. Requirements include that a traditional cache has a container and a logbook and 'all local laws apply'. These are the 'non-negotiables'. The 'guidelines' aspect of cache placement is anywhere we ask a volunteer reviewer to use their experience and judgment to make a call based on the specifics of an individual cache.

 

Essentially, we do not want to make any blanket statements about requiring a specific type of labeling, as each cache must be assessed on its own merits. However, if the local law enforcement agency will not permit caching without specified labels, then we need to comply with the local laws. We trust that the local volunteers know their regions best and will continue to act as stewards of the game within communities external to Geocaching.com.

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

Thanks Sandy.

It was good of you to be as consise as you have. Just one last point, we do not yet live in a police state in the uk. Law enforcement is just that! If you have been informed the police have made a law you have been mislead.

[Sandy]

Thanks Sandy.

It was good of you to be as consise as you have. Just one last point, we do not yet live in a police state in the uk. Law enforcement is just that! If you have been informed the police have made a law you have been mislead.

We know that no laws have been updated, but agencies can enforce existing laws. And if they deem geocaching as being in violation of those, then the game will not be permitted in urban areas in the UK. This was a genuine concern at the time of the recent bomb scare.

 

Thanks for the additional information.

[+Palujia]

This has been re-iterated so many times now it is getting really beyond a joke! How many more times do some people, who appear to be stirring things up for the sake of it have to be told :-

A. The GAGB don't make any laws - just try to help ALL UK cachers

B. Guidlines are there to ASSIST everyone NOT to be slavishly followed BY ANYONE

C. If you don't like the guidelines DON'T follow them (but if your cache gets blown up by the bomb disposal experts or you get arrested for acting suspiciously that's your problem)

D. If this then leads to CURRENT anti-terrorism laws being rigourously enforced it could seriously jepodise the whole hobby. If that is your aim then, you will make a lot more people than the GAGB members seriously unhappy.

E. If you want to change or even get rid of the GAGB guidelines then become a member, get elected to the committee - vote everyone out and make your own headaches.

[+Happy Humphrey]

We know that no laws have been updated, but agencies can enforce existing laws. And if they deem geocaching as being in violation of those, then the game will not be permitted in urban areas in the UK. This was a genuine concern at the time of the recent bomb scare.

Just to clarify that only a privileged few know what law was broken in the recent bomb scare. Everyone else has no idea what the cacher was charged with - they could have been carrying drugs for all we know. Chances are that geocaching is still legal, even in urban areas. The police cannot enforce a law that doesn't exist.

 

I'm not saying that following guidelines isn't a good thing but let's not get carried away with the law-enforcement side, as we have no idea whether there is a law that can be used to convict people who are innocently geocaching.

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

I'm not saying that following guidelines isn't a good thing but let's not get carried away with the law-enforcement side, as we have no idea whether there is a law that can be used to convict people who are innocently geocaching.

 

I agree with HH on this.

 

Sandy you have gotten specific with a particular GAGB guideline and I am glad you raised that particular one, but I was asking in general not specific. You have answered my question, albeit ambiguously, and am left with a partial acknowledgement that you can not answer the question specifically. I will have to accept that as the official response and I thank you again for taking the time to answer me.

 

With regard to the GAGB urban cache guideline, that you raised earlier, it is my belief that no law enforcement agency contacted GAGB or Groundspeak through an official channel. It was in fact GAGB that made contact and GAGB that suggested a set of draconian "guidelines" that were thankfully then back peddled on to an extent. However we are now subject to extra rules that were not needed. All that needed to be done was communicate with the various agencies to educate them about geocaching. Groundspeak provide an excellent presentation for this and I am surprised this is not used.

 

So to sum up for the benefit Palujia, who incidentally talks a good talk on free speech but covertly gags it, and friends I was asking for an official statement from Groundspeak that I got, eventually. I was asking for it because after speaking to reviewers and other cachers I was a little confused.

 

I am a little dispirited that several posters only partially read my OP and then interjected with a response. And then scolded me like a petulant child for daring to ask! I was asking the organ grinder to comment they should have realised that.

[Sandy]

With regard to the GAGB urban cache guideline, that you raised earlier, it is my belief that no law enforcement agency contacted GAGB or Groundspeak through an official channel. It was in fact GAGB that made contact and GAGB that suggested a set of draconian "guidelines" that were thankfully then back peddled on to an extent. However we are now subject to extra rules that were not needed. All that needed to be done was communicate with the various agencies to educate them about geocaching. Groundspeak provide an excellent presentation for this and I am surprised this is not used.

 

Groundspeak would have liked to be part of this discussion with law enforcement; the GAGB thought that the matter at hand needed immediate attention. We are working on partnering more closely on these types of matters in the future. That said, neither Groundspeak nor the GAGB represent all the cachers in the UK. There are other sites and other organizations at play. What matters most is stewardship of the game of geocaching overall - by all parties. Our guidelines and the GAGB's guidelines are not absolutes, but offer a platform of guidance for our highly experienced and capable volunteers to make informed decisions - cache by cache - for their designated regions.

 

Cache owners should be reminded that if you do not agree with a decision about your cache, you can submit to the Appeals team here at Groundspeak for further consideration.

 

I know this answer is not definitive, but there are so many factors at play that I would be remiss in replying with something more concrete.

[+Lord & Lady Boogie]

Thanks again and please feel free to close this thread