two PIDs, one mark?

[+flask]

here are the two marks in question: RF0689 and RF0690.

 

for both marks, finders have claimed to have seen each disk, but there are no photos of either along with any of the entries. there are photos of the reference marks for 690 "HAYSTACK".

 

i was unable to find the actual disk "HAYSTACK" nor could i find the elusive 689 "HAYSTACK MT". the datasheets are unhelpful for both, and no UGS information i can find sheds any light on it.

 

should we consider them unfound?

[+RIclimber]

here are the two marks in question: RF0689 and RF0690.

 

for both marks, finders have claimed to have seen each disk, but there are no photos of either along with any of the entries. there are photos of the reference marks for 690 "HAYSTACK".

 

i was unable to find the actual disk "HAYSTACK" nor could i find the elusive 689 "HAYSTACK MT". the datasheets are unhelpful for both, and no UGS information i can find sheds any light on it.

 

should we consider them unfound?

 

I think "HAYSTACK MT" IS the mark. Just like a chimney or a tower.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Downy288

[+LSUFan]

here are the two marks in question: RF0689 and RF0690.

 

for both marks, finders have claimed to have seen each disk, but there are no photos of either along with any of the entries. there are photos of the reference marks for 690 "HAYSTACK".

 

i was unable to find the actual disk "HAYSTACK" nor could i find the elusive 689 "HAYSTACK MT". the datasheets are unhelpful for both, and no UGS information i can find sheds any light on it.

 

should we consider them unfound?

 

Flask, I am unsure exactly what you are asking here. RF0689 is an intersection station. It's not a disk, but the peak of a mountain that would be able to be seen from a distance.

 

Nobody could have claimed to see a disk for this one, as there isn't one. They could easily log it as found, cause they sure should be able to see a mountain peak. If you were standing on this peak, then you were standing on this intersection station type benchmark.

 

RF0690 actually is a disk, set in a rock outcrop.

 

Are you sure you posted the correct PID's for this, as these two marks have completely different datasheets that don't read alike?

 

EDIT: Here is the definition of an intersection station type of benchmark:

 

Intersection Stations (a Type of Horizontal Control)

An intersection station is a prominent landmark, such as a water tower, radio tower, church spire, mountain top, or any other type of object that can be observed from a distance. These kinds of "large object" station markers, known as intersection stations because of the way their coordinates are calculated are usually landmarks higher in the air than any surrounding objects, which allows them to be seen from many miles away in several directions. By observing one or more such points through a telescope, surveyors can determine positions on the surface of the Earth through the use of trigonometry.

 

EDIT 2: I looked up RF0690 on gc.com, and you are correct in your assessment that the pics posted are not of RF0690. The pics there are for reference marks placed by the MAINE D.O.T. in 1993.

 

 

They could have possibly placed their own triangulation station with the HAYSTACK name.......so you might find several disks there. Only the one that matches the description for RF0690 and had that stamping will be the actual one that goes to that datasheet.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=RF0690

 

You will find lot's of benchmarks that are not going to be listed in the NGS database, or on gc.com. Here is an explanation of that:

 

I found a benchmark, but it isn't in the database. Why?

To answer this question, you need to understand a bit about what "the database" is. The database used by Geocaching.com is a copy (from around 2000) of the database that NGS maintains. Although the NGS database has lots of marks in it, it does not have them all. In order for a mark to get into NGS's database, it has to go through a process known as "bluebooking" which ensures the disk meets the minimum requirements to be of geodetic quality (aka the highest quality possible). The NGS is not the only organization that creates and uses benchmarks and other types of control markers. In order for any mark to get "in the database" they must be "bluebooked", which can take a lot of time and effort and is often not done to save money. Remember, even though some marks might not be in the database, they are still highly important, both to businesses and to individual citizens such as your neighbors, so please treat them with respect, while enjoying the thrill of the hunt. We'll try to find other databases and add them to the site as well. If you have access to one of these databases and would like to submit it to Groundspeak, contact us.

 

Since the Groundspeak benchmark database was obtained from the NGS in the year 2000, newer benchmarks and recent reports on older marks will not be visible here in Groundspeak's copy. Besides new disks, there are many cases of benchmarks monumented significantly before 2000 but entered the NGS database only after the year 2000.

 

Hope this helps some. We just love when a mystery of sorts get posted to the forums, and we all like to see if we can figure it out.

Edited April 19, 2011 by LSUFan

[+flask]

LSUFAN: thanks!

[+LSUFan]

LSUFAN: thanks!

 

You're more than welcome. I see you have posted a great pic now for RF0689. That's all it takes. Good deal.

 

FYI, even though you can log intersection station benchmarks on gc.com......the NGS has kinda said they are not really interested in having those kind directly reported to them (if you ever decide to report recoveries to the NGS), unless they have been destroyed.

[kayakbird]

flask,

 

Most DATASHEET's use the terminology 'FIRST OBSERVED' for an intersection station.

 

SR1118 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

SR1118 HISTORY - 1949 FIRST OBSERVED CGS

SR1118

SR1118 STATION DESCRIPTION

SR1118

SR1118'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1949 (MJT)

SR1118'THE STATION IS LOCATED NEAR THE EASTERLY EDGE OF LEWISTOWN, AT

SR1118'THE SOUTH EDGE OF THE HOSPITAL GROUNDS, AND SOUTH OF THE

SR1118'HOSPITAL POWER PLANT BUILDING.

SR1118'

SR1118'THE STRUCTURE IS HEXAGON SHAPED AT ITS APEX AND 9 FEET SQUARE

SR1118'AT ITS BASE. IT IS CONSTRUCTED OF RED BRICK AND ITS HEIGHT

SR1118'IS 110 FEET. THERE IS A LADDER ON ITS SOUTH SIDE.

SR1118'

SR1118'THE POINT OBSERVED WAS THE CENTER OF THE STRUCTURE AT ITS APEX.

 

On yours, you have to read the STATION DESCRIPTION to get a clue. kayakbird

 

RF0689 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By

RF0689 HISTORY - 1941 MONUMENTED CGS

RF0689

RF0689 STATION DESCRIPTION

RF0689

RF0689''DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1941 (PLB)

RF0689''THIS INTERSECTION STATION IS A SHARP-POINTED MOUNTAIN KNOWN

RF0689''AS HAY STACK MOUNTAIN LOCATED ABOUT 10 MILES NE OF ASHLAND. THE

RF0689''HIGHEST POINT OF THIS PYRAMIDAL PEAK WAS OBSERVED ON.

[+Holtie22]

flask,

Found this station on the Maine DOT survey control points map

It appears that the original USGS disk froom 1927 has been broken off, but the location can still be found and was used by Maine DOT to derive more accurate, GPS coordinates.

 

From the Maine DOT database:

Description for Station HAYSTACK (USGS); Owner: DOT

 

STATION NAME: HAYSTACK (USGS) These coordinates are MDOT derived as NGS publishes the coordinates to 3rd Order. Located about 5.63 km (3.5 mile) west-southwest of Mapleton, 13.68 km (8.5 mile) east-northeast of Ashland, 0.32 km (0.20 mile) north on State Route 163; on top of Haystack Mountain. To reach from the B&A Railroad tracks crossing State Route 163 in Mapleton, go west along State Route 163 for 0.97 km (0.60 mile) to a fork at the Dudley Road, keep left and continue west for about 5.15 km (3.2 mile) to a turnout on the right with a road leading north into the woods; park here and walk north to the top of the hill and the station as described. The station is a broken off shank of a U.S.G.S. disk cemented into a drill hole in the balding rock at the top of Haystack Mountain, on property owned by Town of Castle Hill. It is: 9.02 m (29.6 feet) north-northeast of a 0.30 m (12 inch) spruce tree, 2.41 m (7.9 feet) east- southeast of a old anchor bolt. RM-1 is a standard disk cemented into a drill hole in ledge, 5.43 m (17.8 feet) north of an old anchor hole 3.66 m (12.0 feet) southwest of a 0.30 m (12 inch) spruce tree.RM-2 is a standard disk cemented into a drill hole in ledge, 8.56 m (28.1 feet) south of a 0.08 m (3 inch) white birch tree, 6.25 m (20.5 feet) south-southeast of a 0.15 m (6 inch) spruce tree. The reference marks were set in August 1993 and the original station mark was set at a previous time.

[AZcachemeister]

 

FYI, even though you can log intersection station benchmarks on gc.com......the NGS has kinda said they are not really interested in having those kind directly reported to them (if you ever decide to report recoveries to the NGS), unless even if they have been destroyed.

 

Deb Brown has stated that she/they will enter recovery reports for intersection stations, but that they really don't care about them at all whatsoever, and would prefer to spend their time on other things.

[+billwallace]

I never could figure these two out: FV1985 and AA4350

[kayakbird]

I never could figure these two out: FV1985 and AA4350

My guess is that somewhere in California there is a disk that is stamped '1 DPW RESET 1979'. Maybe it, or the original '1 DPW' has a PID.

 

kayakbird

[Bill93]

I'm with Kayak on this. I tend to trust FV1985 since things check better on it, and CalTrans uses it.

 

AA4350 has the stamping discrepancy (STAMPING: 1 DPW RESET 1979), date discrepancy, the setting discrepancy, and is only VERTCON quality. The descriptions have gotten mixed up and somewhere out there a lonely disk that has lost its pedigree.