Waas/Egnos

[+rogge88]

Beginning with April 1st, 2003 , the EGNOS or ESTB signal is transmitted in WAAS compatible data format (SBAS mode 0/2). Since that time, the receivers from Garmin are able to use the data. It should be repeated that Garmin receivers are only capable of doing WAAS/EGNOS corrections if they are set to normal mode. It is not enough to switch to WAAS-yes, you also have to got to normal mode. Being in enery-saving mode they do not evaluate the WAAS/EGNOS data. Unfortunately, normal mode does use significantly more power and thus greatly reduces the life time of your battery. The picture on the right shows the satellite screen of Garmins extrex vista with EGNOS correction applied. The letter “D” in the signal bar indicates that the data from this particulate satellite is being corrected by the EGNOS signal. With an accuracy of 2 meters (RMS) the positioning is quite good.

 

http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/waas_egnos.htm

[+ecanderson]

Is which true? For current models? Lots of info there.

 

1) Yes, EGNOS is in WAAS format, and can be received by any current Garmin model in addition to WAAS satellite data.

 

2) The description of "normal mode" is no longer relevant. WAAS is enabled separately from any battery saving mode on current units. Using WAAS does NOT "greatly reduce the life time of your battery".

 

3) The description of recognizing when WAAS data is being used to correct a given satellite's information (the "D" stuff) continues to be employed on current models.

[+rogge88]

Is which true? For current models? Lots of info there.

2) The description of "normal mode" is no longer relevant. WAAS is enabled separately from any battery saving mode on current units. Using WAAS does NOT "greatly reduce the life time of your battery".

Ok that answer my question thank you!

Do you have a up to date site about WAAS/Egnos aka Garmin? In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

[+ecanderson]

In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

I don't know what sort of malfunction there might be with EGNOS. I can only say that WAAS improves the Oregon 450 accuracy here by a fair amount. Here, even with the best conditions, I can't ever see 3 meter EPE on either my Dakota 20 or Oregon 450 without WAAS. 4 meters is as good as it ever gets in "Normal" mode, and most often 5 meters and sometimes even more. With WAAS enabled and good skies, 3 meters is typical with WAAS.

[+keehotee]

In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

I don't know what sort of malfunction there might be with EGNOS. I can only say that WAAS improves the Oregon 450 accuracy here by a fair amount. Here, even with the best conditions, I can't ever see 3 meter EPE on either my Dakota 20 or Oregon 450 without WAAS. 4 meters is as good as it ever gets in "Normal" mode, and most often 5 meters and sometimes even more. With WAAS enabled and good skies, 3 meters is typical with WAAS.

 

+1 - same situation in the UK.

[+rogge88]

In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

I don't know what sort of malfunction there might be with EGNOS. I can only say that WAAS improves the Oregon 450 accuracy here by a fair amount. Here, even with the best conditions, I can't ever see 3 meter EPE on either my Dakota 20 or Oregon 450 without WAAS. 4 meters is as good as it ever gets in "Normal" mode, and most often 5 meters and sometimes even more. With WAAS enabled and good skies, 3 meters is typical with WAAS.

 

+1 - same situation in the UK.

 

I dont know what you mean with "+1 -same situation in UK" Is it better accuracy when you enable WAAS/Egnos or is it the same problem in UK as in Sweden?

Have UK WAAS or Egnos?

[+dfx]

I dont know what you mean with "+1 -same situation in UK" Is it better accuracy when you enable WAAS/Egnos or is it the same problem in UK as in Sweden?

Have UK WAAS or Egnos?

UK would have EGNOS.

i can also confirm increased accuracy numbers with WAAS enabled, or more specifically, with a WAAS lock.

 

here's what the sat screen should look like under good reception conditions and with an EGNOS lock:

 

 

(found it on the net, it's from southern germany)

[+GPSlug]

In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

Is this the EPE that is bigger with EGNOS? Or are you measuring the position error directly?

 

SBAS gives corrections for increased accuracy, but it also (more importantly for Safety of Life applications, like flying) allows the receiver to get a better estimate of its error. This is most significant for the ionospheric corrections. In a strong or quickly changing ionospheric environment, a receiver will have a much better idea of how well it's correcting for the error using SBAS than using the GPS broadcast model. And the ionosphere tends to be more variable in higher latitudes, like Sweden.

 

Could it be that your accuracy is better, even if the reported EPE is worse?

[+ventura_kids]

On my Garmin 62S, the WAAS lock seems to be much more accurate than just the normal mode alone.

I'm quite certain that your location will make a difference.

Since I'm in Los Angeles, it is a definite difference.

[+rogge88]

In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

Is this the EPE that is bigger with EGNOS? Or are you measuring the position error directly?

 

SBAS gives corrections for increased accuracy, but it also (more importantly for Safety of Life applications, like flying) allows the receiver to get a better estimate of its error. This is most significant for the ionospheric corrections. In a strong or quickly changing ionospheric environment, a receiver will have a much better idea of how well it's correcting for the error using SBAS than using the GPS broadcast model. And the ionosphere tends to be more variable in higher latitudes, like Sweden.

 

Could it be that your accuracy is better, even if the reported EPE is worse?

It is the EPA that I trust, I haven't had a chance to stand on a known position and compare. Is it Sweden or is it Egnos, then I read some old threads in Swedish it seems that they had the same discussion in 2004 and 2007 are we a forgotten country then it comes to Egnos?

[+rogge88]

On my Garmin 62S, the WAAS lock seems to be much more accurate than just the normal mode alone.

I'm quite certain that your location will make a difference.

Since I'm in Los Angeles, it is a definite difference.

I am really confused in this subject http://www.gpsfix.net/oregon-dakota-improve-waas-beta/

Is WAAS/Egnos a humbug

[+dfx]

Is it Sweden or is it Egnos, then I read some old threads in Swedish it seems that they had the same discussion in 2004 and 2007 are we a forgotten country then it comes to Egnos?

EGNOS seems to work fine, but wasn't available in 2004 (it only started operation in 2005), so not sure what kind of discussion you're talking about.

sweden is well covered by EGNOS and has monitoring stations as well, but you have to consider that you're pretty far north and that makes getting reception much harder than further south (as is the case with any geostationary satellites). it's not impossible, but harder. in any case, enabling WAAS/EGNOS doesn't hurt: if you manage to get reception, it will improve your accuracy, and if you don't, then it will be the same as in "normal" mode. there's no negative side effects.

I am really confused in this subject http://www.gpsfix.net/oregon-dakota-improve-waas-beta/

Is WAAS/Egnos a humbug

this firmware update affected the device's ability to acquire and hold a lock to the sats and nothing else. not sure where you deduct the "humbug" from, it's got nothing to do with WAAS or EGNOS itself.

of course you're free to leave it disabled if you don't think it's working or don't like it for whatever reason. but please don't try to tell other people that it's a bad thing - they might believe you.

Edited November 13, 2010 by dfx

[+rogge88]

sweden is well covered by EGNOS and has monitoring stations as well, but you have to consider that you're pretty far north and that makes getting reception much harder than further south (as is the case with any geostationary satellites). it's not impossible, but harder. in any case, enabling WAAS/EGNOS doesn't hurt: if you manage to get reception, it will improve your accuracy, and if you don't, then it will be the same as in "normal" mode. there's no negative side effects.

 

this firmware update affected the device's ability to acquire and hold a lock to the sats and nothing else. not sure where you deduct the "humbug" from, it's got nothing to do with WAAS or EGNOS itself.

of course you're free to leave it disabled if you don't think it's working or don't like it for whatever reason. but please don't try to tell other people that it's a bad thing - they might believe you.

I live in the south and I get quite good reception, but it doesn't show in the EPA calculation. There the normal mode always outperform WAAS/Egnos mode. And "all" I talk to has the same experience in Sweden. Is it wrong to trust the EPA calculation?

Humbug or not I don't know? The accuracy is not improved, quite the opposite?

[+dfx]

I live in the south and I get quite good reception, but it doesn't show in the EPA calculation. There the normal mode always outperform WAAS/Egnos mode. And "all" I talk to has the same experience in Sweden. Is it wrong to trust the EPA calculation?

actually yes, it is. it's just an estimate, not a guarantee. you don't know how accurate the receiver is without performing proper real-world tests - the EPE is just a rough indicator about accuracy.

 

personally i don't see why the EPE would go up with EGNOS reception, unless there's a bug in the firmware to cause this, in which case you should report it to garmin (assuming you have the most recent firmware). maybe you can post some screenshots that show this behavior?

[+ventura_kids]

I'm not all that scientific with my testing.

Without WAAS, the arrow wanders around near gz, and the distance to go is bouncing around.

The accuracy is around 11 or 18 feet, and the distance to go is around 0 to 15 feet....and moving around.

When I turn on the WAAS, the Garmin 62S version 2.8 settles in right away, and doesn't swing around. It seems much more accurate....and consistant. Also, the accuracy is in the 4 to 8 foot range (on the displayed accuracy).

We don't spend more than a minute or so at each geocache, and we need the unit to point AT the geocache quickly. With WAAS on....it seems to do just that.

[+keehotee]

In Sweden we have a discussion about that the normal mode seems to be more accurate then the WAAS/Egnos mode. Do you have any comments about that?

 

I have done tests with two Garmins (Dakota 20 and Oregon 450) side by side during a day and the normal mode "always" shows better numbers on accuracy (3 meters ->7 meters typically)

I don't know what sort of malfunction there might be with EGNOS. I can only say that WAAS improves the Oregon 450 accuracy here by a fair amount. Here, even with the best conditions, I can't ever see 3 meter EPE on either my Dakota 20 or Oregon 450 without WAAS. 4 meters is as good as it ever gets in "Normal" mode, and most often 5 meters and sometimes even more. With WAAS enabled and good skies, 3 meters is typical with WAAS.

 

+1 - same situation in the UK.

 

I dont know what you mean with "+1 -same situation in UK" Is it better accuracy when you enable WAAS/Egnos or is it the same problem in UK as in Sweden?

Have UK WAAS or Egnos?

 

To clarify - in the UK I regularly get 3m accuracy with WAAS enabled - I don't know if it's actually WAAS or EGNOS signals though - against 5-6m without.

[+rogge88]

I live in the south and I get quite good reception, but it doesn't show in the EPA calculation. There the normal mode always outperform WAAS/Egnos mode. And "all" I talk to has the same experience in Sweden. Is it wrong to trust the EPA calculation?

actually yes, it is. it's just an estimate, not a guarantee. you don't know how accurate the receiver is without performing proper real-world tests - the EPE is just a rough indicator about accuracy.

 

personally i don't see why the EPE would go up with EGNOS reception, unless there's a bug in the firmware to cause this, in which case you should report it to garmin (assuming you have the most recent firmware). maybe you can post some screenshots that show this behavior?

I'm not all that scientific with my testing.

Without WAAS, the arrow wanders around near gz, and the distance to go is bouncing around.

The accuracy is around 11 or 18 feet, and the distance to go is around 0 to 15 feet....and moving around.

When I turn on the WAAS, the Garmin 62S version 2.8 settles in right away, and doesn't swing around. It seems much more accurate....and consistant. Also, the accuracy is in the 4 to 8 foot range (on the displayed accuracy).

We don't spend more than a minute or so at each geocache, and we need the unit to point AT the geocache quickly. With WAAS on....it seems to do just that.

Mmmmm if I read the post above its indicates that the EPA calculation is working and trusted, why shouldent I trust it? I have the latest firmware and im not alone to have this problem in Sweden

[+dfx]

Mmmmm if I read the post above its indicates that the EPA calculation is working and trusted, why shouldent I trust it? I have the latest firmware and im not alone to have this problem in Sweden

the EPE should be working, should go down when accuracy increases and should go up when it decreases, but it's still not a guarantee and doesn't have to behave that way. it can only be trusted so much. did you actually update to the recent firmwares to eliminate any bugs there may have been?

 

but it's really simple: if you think EGNOS has a negative effect, then don't use it. personally i won't believe it without seeing at least some screenshots demonstrating that though.

[+dfx]

To clarify - in the UK I regularly get 3m accuracy with WAAS enabled - I don't know if it's actually WAAS or EGNOS signals though - against 5-6m without.

it's EGNOS in the UK.

[+rogge88]

Mmmmm if I read the post above its indicates that the EPA calculation is working and trusted, why shouldent I trust it? I have the latest firmware and im not alone to have this problem in Sweden

the EPE should be working, should go down when accuracy increases and should go up when it decreases, but it's still not a guarantee and doesn't have to behave that way. it can only be trusted so much. did you actually update to the recent firmwares to eliminate any bugs there may have been?

 

but it's really simple: if you think EGNOS has a negative effect, then don't use it. personally i won't believe it without seeing at least some screenshots demonstrating that though.

Ok what type of information do you want in the screenshot. It is enough if the have two Garmins besides each other and takes screenshots and photos?

[+dfx]

Ok what type of information do you want in the screenshot. It is enough if the have two Garmins besides each other and takes screenshots and photos?

i'd be interested in what the satellite status screen shows (push on the reception bars at the bottom of the main menu).

 

using two different devices for this test may not be the best idea. it would be better to use one device only and enable/disable EGNOS on it, then take screenshots of the sat status screen before and after. make sure you give the GPS at least several minutes time to settle before starting the test.

[+rogge88]

Ok what type of information do you want in the screenshot. It is enough if the have two Garmins besides each other and takes screenshots and photos?

i'd be interested in what the satellite status screen shows (push on the reception bars at the bottom of the main menu).

 

using two different devices for this test may not be the best idea. it would be better to use one device only and enable/disable EGNOS on it, then take screenshots of the sat status screen before and after. make sure you give the GPS at least several minutes time to settle before starting the test.

Ill be back as he said

[+swope2bc]

Well I do not post on these things, but I was doing some research into this WAAS thing (I didn't know what it was) and found this thread... I am in southern BC Canada and when I turned this feature on my accuracy went down between 10-22 feet! I will most definitely be using this setting in the future.