Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 4
DragonflyTotem

ALR - Required Photos, Yes, Again

Recommended Posts

Everytime I think that I've read the rules and the several posts here something comes along that makes me think that I don't.

 

An EC just approved yesterday has the following REQUIREMENT for logging:

 

"Upload a picture of yourself with your GPS (or just your GPS) with the [name of bridge omitted] behind you. If you're using your phone as a camera and GPS we'll settle for a picture of the bridge."

 

Simple question -- is or is this not an ALR?

Share this post


Link to post

I forget what ALR stands for, but based on what I see here I would have to think that Earthcache should not have been approved with that logging requirement.

Share this post


Link to post

I forget what ALR stands for, but based on what I see here I would have to think that Earthcache should not have been approved with that logging requirement.

 

ALR = Additional Logging Requirement

Share this post


Link to post

The guidelines reads :

 

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

 

If a person is asking for a photograph with specific content NOT related to the Earth science lesson or the site ie a persons face, then that photograph must be optional.

 

Nowhere does the guidelines say "Photographs can't be part of the logging task'

 

Without seeing the full cache text, I would say that the quoted logging task is acceptable as it is not asking for a persons face, a picture of their car, house or grandmother. The request is for a picture of the site and they seem to have some options for people depending on equipment.

Share this post


Link to post

The guidelines reads :

 

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

 

If a person is asking for a photograph with specific content NOT related to the Earth science lesson or the site ie a persons face, then that photograph must be optional.

 

Nowhere does the guidelines say "Photographs can't be part of the logging task'

 

Without seeing the full cache text, I would say that the quoted logging task is acceptable as it is not asking for a persons face, a picture of their car, house or grandmother. The request is for a picture of the site and they seem to have some options for people depending on equipment.

 

Here is the cache: http://coord.info/GC2GBXF

 

The bridge in question is some distance from the listed caching location (not to be confused with the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel -- which is also mentioned and which is even further away) and doesn't seem to be related in any way to the Earth Science lesson. So that's why I'm confused about this as a requirement as it seems to ask for specific content not related to the listed lesson.

Share this post


Link to post

The guidelines reads :

 

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

 

If a person is asking for a photograph with specific content NOT related to the Earth science lesson or the site ie a persons face, then that photograph must be optional.

 

Nowhere does the guidelines say "Photographs can't be part of the logging task'

 

Without seeing the full cache text, I would say that the quoted logging task is acceptable as it is not asking for a persons face, a picture of their car, house or grandmother. The request is for a picture of the site and they seem to have some options for people depending on equipment.

That's the one little bit of confusion that I have. It says, "Request for a specific photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example)". Isn't asking for a GPS in the picture the same thing?

Share this post


Link to post

I was under the impression that asking for the GPS to be included is also verboten.

 

It's difficult to uphold these standards when the interpretation keeps changing.

Share this post


Link to post

I thought I understood this but now I guess I'm totally confused. The logging requirement asks that both a GPS and the cacher appear in the picture. Wouldn't both of those be "specific content"? And how is any of that educational? It does allow for an exception, but only if you're using a combination phone/camera/GPS. I guess I don't see how this is any different from the old rules.

Share this post


Link to post

Exactly my confusion as well....

 

#1 Photo of a person is a specific object....since the person came to the EC, it is unlikely that the person can be related to the earth science lesson there.

 

#2 Photo of a GPS is a specific object....since the GPS came to the EC, and isn't used to participate in this lesson (which is about soil/sand sampling), it is unlikely that the GPS can be related to the earth science lesson there.

 

#3 Photo of the bridge that happens to be nearby the EC, and isn't in any way a part of the earth science lesson (which takes place on a beach hundreds of feet away and in the opposite direction), is unlikely to be related to the earth science lesson there.

 

So...if #1-3 are correct, then I truly don't understand why this wouldn't be an ALR. And like above, I'm then lost as to what the standards are or are not and have no clue what to put or not put into my own ECs.

Share this post


Link to post

Again, the issue about photographs is not to force people to provide photos of themselves as part of the logging requirements. It is also to make people to develop strong educational logging tasks.

 

Its very simple. The interpretation has NOT changed.

 

In this case, if you do not want to include yourself in the photograph for this cache, you do not have to. I.e. photo of the cachers is optional. Therefore it meets the guidelines.

 

I use this just as an example. I really do not like how individual caches are being singled out in these forums. If you have a gripe about a cache, contact us through the EarthCache.org website or to to the appeals section of Groundspeak.

Share this post


Link to post

Again, the issue about photographs is not to force people to provide photos of themselves as part of the logging requirements. It is also to make people to develop strong educational logging tasks.

 

Its very simple. The interpretation has NOT changed.

 

In this case, if you do not want to include yourself in the photograph for this cache, you do not have to. I.e. photo of the cachers is optional. Therefore it meets the guidelines.

 

I use this just as an example. I really do not like how individual caches are being singled out in these forums. If you have a gripe about a cache, contact us through the EarthCache.org website or to to the appeals section of Groundspeak.

 

Now hold on a moment, this isn't about singling out a cache.

 

I asked a question, and even took out identifying information to be able to ask the question without singling out the cache. In reply you said, "Without seeing the full cache text...." and that's why I specified which cache it is. This isn't about complaining about a cache, this is about trying to understand the requirements. And if you go through the appeals process the answer will more likely be that it is or isn't okay, and lacking any explanation that would come through a discussion here.

 

But to the point, I REALLY REALLY am not understanding how these guidelines are to be applied.

 

You said: "Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional"

 

So how in any usage of the term "specific content" in the English language can asking for either a bridge or GPS not be requested "specific content" then? Neither are related to the earth science lesson at the EC.

 

This really isn't about trying to start a fight, this is someone trying to say that the requirements and the subsequent explanations of them aren't making sense and clearly I'm not the only one saying that.

Share this post


Link to post

Same thing happened to me today.

I got this email from a cacher whose log I deleted because I deleted his log.

 

> Not on an earthcache. A photo cannot be a requirement to log. I suggest you

> reinstate the log or a complaint will be filed against you.

 

I ask for a photograph as proof people visited the site - beside doing measurements amongst other tasks.

And all the EC's I visited to date (about 95) have the same requirement.

 

Did I miss something overhere?

 

GeoBSWEScout

Edited by geobswescout

Share this post


Link to post

 

I ask for a photograph as proof people visited the site - beside doing measurements amongst other tasks.

And all the EC's I visited to date (about 95) have the same requirement.

 

Did I miss something overhere?

 

 

Maybe. The guidelines state, "Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks." Many earthcaches were developed before this guideline and some may not conform to it.

 

Therefore, as far as I understand it, you can ask for a photograph related to the earth science lesson or the site -- generally I ask for a photo of the site that helps to identify a particular feature. You can't make a person take a picture of themselves at the site.

 

But the guideline has led to a great deal of confusion as to what can be asked. The example given by the OP was a requirement for a picture showing either the cacher, the gpsr, or a bridge. Because it had options that did not require a photo of the cachers, and was not dependent on a person having a gpsr separate from a camera, it apparently met the requirements.

 

So I keep things simple - I do not delete any logs based upon a photo and include photos when "asked." The people that object to the latter, though, are very adamant about it. Thus, the guideline.

Edited by mulvaney

Share this post


Link to post

 

Here is the cache: http://coord.info/GC2GBXF

 

The bridge in question is some distance from the listed caching location (not to be confused with the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel -- which is also mentioned and which is even further away) and doesn't seem to be related in any way to the Earth Science lesson. So that's why I'm confused about this as a requirement as it seems to ask for specific content not related to the listed lesson.

 

I'm confused by this statement. The cache page references the Lesner Bridge which is only about 500 feet from the cache location and would definitely be in the background of a picture take at this location.

Share this post


Link to post

 

Here is the cache: http://coord.info/GC2GBXF

 

The bridge in question is some distance from the listed caching location (not to be confused with the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel -- which is also mentioned and which is even further away) and doesn't seem to be related in any way to the Earth Science lesson. So that's why I'm confused about this as a requirement as it seems to ask for specific content not related to the listed lesson.

 

I'm confused by this statement. The cache page references the Lesner Bridge which is only about 500 feet from the cache location and would definitely be in the background of a picture take at this location.

 

Not if you're "doing" the tasks in the EC it won't. The tasks have you standing on the beach, which faces approximately 90 degrees away from the bridge. If you stand at this spot (which I have been to), you would be facing the First Landing State Park. If you turned your back away from the beach where you perform your task you will be facing a park and neighborhood. If you stand on the beach and instead face away to the South (or so) you can then end up with that bridge in the background for a picture taken of you, facing to the South.

 

However, the primary point that I was making is that the bridge is NOT on the site (being approximately 1 mile away), and is not involved in the stated earth science lesson in any way. And in response to that Geoaware stated:

"If a person is asking for a photograph with specific content NOT related to the Earth science lesson or the site ie a persons face, then that photograph must be optional."

 

So according to that, the photo requirement of the bridge, either with or without a person or a GPS would have to be an ALR.

 

But....Geoaware then next stated:

"In this case, if you do not want to include yourself in the photograph for this cache, you do not have to. I.e. photo of the cachers is optional. Therefore it meets the guidelines."

 

Which by any read of that statement contradicts the prior statement.

 

The only way that the two statements, as they are currently offered, can be resolved is that any photo required is fine as long as you don't require the cacher to be in the photo because somehow that option then obviates the prohibition against photos of any specific content not related to the earth science lesson.

Share this post


Link to post

However, the primary point that I was making is that the bridge is NOT on the site (being approximately 1 mile away), and is not involved in the stated earth science lesson in any way.

 

Using this cache as a particular example is somewhat confusing. I have read its description a couple of times. To complete the earthcache you have to drive to different locations. It refers to "Site No. 2" and "each location" but I can't find any additional waypoints or description of the specific locations. So if this was local to me, I might ask for that to be clarified -- and perhaps that would put the photo requirement into another perspective and make it more relevant to the site itself.

 

The only way that the two statements, as they are currently offered, can be resolved is that any photo required is fine as long as you don't require the cacher to be in the photo because somehow that option then obviates the prohibition against photos of any specific content not related to the earth science lesson.

 

Is this the rule? Geoaware referred to either the "Earth science lesson or the site." Are these the same or are they separate and distinct, to encompass a bridge that may be close to the site but not part of the earth science lesson itself?

Edited by mulvaney

Share this post


Link to post

Again...as stated in posts before...the answer is very simple.

 

You can't ask for a photograph of a person unless that is optional.

You can't ask for a photograph of the persons kids, or car or their dog unless it is optional. Basically you can't ask for photographs that contain items that could be used to identify the person. (its a privacy issue!)

 

Photographs of the site are fine. Photographs of the persons GPS at the site are also fine.

 

However.....you CAN"T use a photograph to replace a strong logging task. Your logging task should be that it can only be done by visiting the site and any photograph should be a secondary issue.

 

Each EarthCache reviewer looks as all these things and makes the decision of what is or is not appropriate. We are only human however, and sometimes mistakes are made. However, in this case, I think the decision was the correct one.

Share this post


Link to post

Again...as stated in posts before...the answer is very simple.

 

You can't ask for a photograph of a person unless that is optional.

You can't ask for a photograph of the persons kids, or car or their dog unless it is optional. Basically you can't ask for photographs that contain items that could be used to identify the person. (its a privacy issue!)

 

Photographs of the site are fine. Photographs of the persons GPS at the site are also fine.

 

However.....you CAN"T use a photograph to replace a strong logging task. Your logging task should be that it can only be done by visiting the site and any photograph should be a secondary issue.

 

Each EarthCache reviewer looks as all these things and makes the decision of what is or is not appropriate. We are only human however, and sometimes mistakes are made. However, in this case, I think the decision was the correct one.

 

Okay, I can accept whatever I can understand and then apply. I simply want to know what that is and how to apply it.

 

Given that, can you shed light then on why this one is allowed to require a picture of a bridge that is not a part of the cache site, not a part of the earth science lesson, and is located a mile away? Your above doesn't seem to address that part of what was and has been my original question.

Share this post


Link to post

However, the primary point that I was making is that the bridge is NOT on the site (being approximately 1 mile away), and is not involved in the stated earth science lesson in any way.

 

Using this cache as a particular example is somewhat confusing. I have read its description a couple of times. To complete the earthcache you have to drive to different locations. It refers to "Site No. 2" and "each location" but I can't find any additional waypoints or description of the specific locations. So if this was local to me, I might ask for that to be clarified -- and perhaps that would put the photo requirement into another perspective and make it more relevant to the site itself.

 

Yes, that is another and whole different issue. And I've been waiting for a reply to that exact issue myself.

 

I was at the EC site this afternoon in between posts but honestly couldn't figure out what I was to do where or somewhere else (and wherever that might be). I've sent emails to the CO but haven't heard back yet, but it sure seems to me that the cache description is missing some critical information.

 

I'd have to check again though but as I remember the bridge site (the one a mile away), you aren't allowed to go on the shoreline near its base, so am thinking that isn't it. And that's what started this whole thread to begin with...while waiting for that answer, trying to figure out if the bridge one is even allowed to be a logging requirement.

Share this post


Link to post

Again...as stated in posts before...the answer is very simple.

 

You can't ask for a photograph of a person unless that is optional.

You can't ask for a photograph of the persons kids, or car or their dog unless it is optional. Basically you can't ask for photographs that contain items that could be used to identify the person. (its a privacy issue!)

 

Maybe it would avoid some confusion if this was spelled out in the official guidelines. The term "specific content" is vague and has a different meaning, to me at least.

Share this post


Link to post

Using this cache as a particular example is somewhat confusing. I have read its description a couple of times. To complete the earthcache you have to drive to different locations. It refers to "Site No. 2" and "each location" but I can't find any additional waypoints or description of the specific locations. So if this was local to me, I might ask for that to be clarified -- and perhaps that would put the photo requirement into another perspective and make it more relevant to the site itself.

 

Just heard from the CO and looks like he's re-added the other locations.

Share this post


Link to post

As someone who frequently avoids earthcaches due to not wanting to post a picture of me online and not always having the ability to take a picture of my GPS unit in front of whatever random object it's supposed to be in front of this discussion is important to me.

 

I enjoy earth caches. But this topic comes up enough in this forum to indicate there is obviously some confusion about is a problem photograph wise which indicates the guidelines are not clear enough for cache owners on this issue.

 

I've probably missed out on many great earth caches because of this

Share this post


Link to post

I enjoy earth caches. But this topic comes up enough in this forum to indicate there is obviously some confusion about is a problem photograph wise which indicates the guidelines are not clear enough for cache owners on this issue.

 

Or that people just don't read the Guidelines carefully enough.

 

I've probably missed out on many great earth caches because of this

 

I personally don't have an issue with posting pictures, but I have several friends that do, and for their sake, that is why I fully support that portion of the Guidelines.

 

It seem a pity to alienate one section of our Community over what basically boils down to a privacy issue.

Share this post


Link to post

I enjoy earth caches. But this topic comes up enough in this forum to indicate there is obviously some confusion about is a problem photograph wise which indicates the guidelines are not clear enough for cache owners on this issue.

 

Or that people just don't read the Guidelines carefully enough.

 

 

Or that the guidelines changed after the earthcache was developed and published.

 

I don't have a problem with submitting photos - given the number of virtuals that require this, its not too hard to see what I look like -- not that I would recommend that anybody take a look unless they have a high tolerance for old guys who aren't particularly good looking. But when I do, I usually email the owner that I am posting the "optional photo" with my log.

 

You could do the same and explain that you are not posting the optional photo, but perhaps include a photo you took of the site instead. You may also have to "fight" for your log if the earthcache developer is not aware of the guideline and takes a particularly hard line.

 

People should not be dissuaded from earthcaching because of this. It would be nice if there could be a master email sent to all earthcache developers to remind us of the guideline since so many earthcaches have the "requirement" that the cacher include a photo of themselves.

Edited by mulvaney

Share this post


Link to post

We've all seen it on the forum where a cache owner takes a particularly hard line because they are not aware of the guidelines about photos etc. Personally I don't want to deal with the stress of stumbling over one of these cache owners while out and about logging caches and having to fight to keep my log because they didn't know what the guidelines are.

 

A master e-mail would be a super idea as it would be unrealistic to expect earth cache owners to be continually checking ot make sure the guidelines haven't changed. But clear communication the owners about the guidelines to all the owners (not just those that happen to use the forums) would be great from a finders stand point. Owners then aren't blind sided and upset because me as the lowly finder didn't follow one of their requirements.

 

I know there are many many earth caches that I have not done because the owners still want a picture of me added into the logs as a requirement. And it's true most all of those are older caches. I honestly would not expect these owners to be reading through the guidelines after the placement of their caches to make sure they're still up to snuff. I know that the volunteers aren't going to go through all the caches out there only those that a complaint is generated from.

 

I've been planning my road trip for next year and running into this conundrum all over again and find myself, again, by passing many earth caches due to this logging requirement.

Share this post


Link to post

The section of the guideline being discussed is this: "Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example)".

 

Geoaware just clarified that it is specifically private content. But the guidelines do not say that. They say "specific content", which is very generic, and in parenthesis uses an example of including a face. Without the privacy clarification, it just sounds like it could be any physical object, including a gps.

 

If it's a privacy issue, that should be said in the guideline, so that it's clear what objects are being discussed. That would rule out a gps.

 

Something like, ""Requests for specific (private) content (of a private nature) in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example)", etc.

Edited by Ambrosia

Share this post


Link to post

We've all seen it on the forum where a cache owner takes a particularly hard line because they are not aware of the guidelines about photos etc. Personally I don't want to deal with the stress of stumbling over one of these cache owners while out and about logging caches and having to fight to keep my log because they didn't know what the guidelines are.

 

A master e-mail would be a super idea as it would be unrealistic to expect earth cache owners to be continually checking ot make sure the guidelines haven't changed. But clear communication the owners about the guidelines to all the owners (not just those that happen to use the forums) would be great from a finders stand point. Owners then aren't blind sided and upset because me as the lowly finder didn't follow one of their requirements.

 

I know there are many many earth caches that I have not done because the owners still want a picture of me added into the logs as a requirement. And it's true most all of those are older caches. I honestly would not expect these owners to be reading through the guidelines after the placement of their caches to make sure they're still up to snuff. I know that the volunteers aren't going to go through all the caches out there only those that a complaint is generated from.

 

I've been planning my road trip for next year and running into this conundrum all over again and find myself, again, by passing many earth caches due to this logging requirement.

 

I think sending out a bulk e-mail would be great, although I have no idea how practical that would be. Just clarifying the guidelines, like Ambrosia suggested, would be a big help though. Then if you do an older cache that still has the photo requirement, you could include an excerpt from the guidelines when you send in your answers.

 

In the meantime, Chokecherry, if you ever come to northeast Ohio, be sure to look up my Earthcaches. Whenever I ask for a photo it's always optional.

Share this post


Link to post

I will almost be to northern Ohio next summer but I just don't think we'll make it that far over (but then again you never know). I also feel for those whose GPS and camera are the same unit when these logging requirements.

 

I also think, like Ambrosia said, that tightening up the guideline so it's clearer would be good. I interpret from how the guideline is written that any specific object photograph is not really allowed (take a picture of GPS etc.). If it's a privacy thing then put that it's a privacy thing in the guideline.

Share this post


Link to post

 

People should not be dissuaded from earthcaching because of this. It would be nice if there could be a master email sent to all earthcache developers to remind us of the guideline since so many earthcaches have the "requirement" that the cacher include a photo of themselves.

 

I agree. This needs to be clarified to eliminate the continuing confusion, and ALL Earthcache owners should be directly notified of all current and future guideline changes.

 

Letting these things drag out through forum bickering and conflicts between individual Earthcache visitors and Earthcache owners is simply careless.

Share this post


Link to post

At least one of our ECs was up before the policy change, and yet we've gotten into brief micturating contests with a couple people who refused to upload a photo.

 

Personally I like seeing photos. I'm a photographer, I'm visually oriented. But I get it, different strokes for different folks. And it's clear which way the wind is blowing regarding this policy.

 

So, we went ahead and changed the descriptions to make it clear that, while photos are highly encouraged, they are optional.

 

When in Virginia, Norway, or Alabama, please stop by and visit our earth caches. (And Oregon owners, fear not, our cache descriptions are brief and to the point, and just in case, we always make sure to restate the logging requirements in the hint.)

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 4

×
×
  • Create New...