Pseudo Virtual/Puzzle Cache

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

We would like to do a series of caches at some local places of interest. We want the cachers to actully take a minute to see the inside of the places (which are free) but, as there are no more Virtual Caches, we can't do one of those.

 

What we were thinking is to place a cache just outside of the premises of the museum (whatever, we have already received permission from the GMs) but have the final numbers for the coordinates to the cache be on something that would have to be found inside the attraction (like on a display or something?)

 

Is this legal and can cachers be asked to do this as part of a puzzle cache?

[+niraD]

That sounds like a good multi-cache to me. I wouldn't list it as a puzzle cache unless determining the final coordinates involved some sort of puzzle.

[+Coldgears]

That sounds like a good multi-cache to me. I wouldn't list it as a puzzle cache unless determining the final coordinates involved some sort of puzzle.

 

Yes, these would be called offset caches. They are listed under Multi-caches.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#multi

 

"Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt."

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

Thanks so much! We will read up on offset multi-caches. That's great that there is a way to accomplish what we would like to do. We sure hope that they bring back Virtual Caches someday. They are really fun, and interesting to us. We have always enjoyed the ones that we have done.

 

Anyway, thanks again!

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

That sounds like a good multi-cache to me. I wouldn't list it as a puzzle cache unless determining the final coordinates involved some sort of puzzle.

 

Yes, these would be called offset caches. They are listed under Multi-caches.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#multi

 

"Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt."

 

Uh, oh... we just thought of something. What if the original coordinates were indoors? That would be our goal. To get the cacher inside the attraction. They are almost all museums, or museum-like places. Would it be okay to give parking coordinates and then instructions on the cache page to "go inside and look for"x" and this will give you the coordinates to the final stage of the cache?"

[+niraD]

Uh, oh... we just thought of something. What if the original coordinates were indoors? That would be our goal. To get the cacher inside the attraction. They are almost all museums, or museum-like places. Would it be okay to give parking coordinates and then instructions on the cache page to "go inside and look for"x" and this will give you the coordinates to the final stage of the cache?"

As long as accurate GPS coordinates are used for part of the cache hunt, you're fine. It sounds like you're providing coordinates for the final cache location via the information in the museums, which meets the requirement. You don't need to use coordinates to the indoor locations within the museums. (You can if you want to, but you don't need to.)

[+NYPaddleCacher]

That sounds like a good multi-cache to me. I wouldn't list it as a puzzle cache unless determining the final coordinates involved some sort of puzzle.

 

Yes, these would be called offset caches. They are listed under Multi-caches.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#multi

 

"Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt."

 

Uh, oh... we just thought of something. What if the original coordinates were indoors? That would be our goal. To get the cacher inside the attraction. They are almost all museums, or museum-like places. Would it be okay to give parking coordinates and then instructions on the cache page to "go inside and look for"x" and this will give you the coordinates to the final stage of the cache?"

 

Accurate GPS coordinate must be an integral part of finding the cache, not just for a place to park. If after finding all the clues in the museums you can plug some numbers into a "formula" to obtain a set of coordinates, then navigate to those coordinates to find the final it should be okay, but you can't just use parking coordinates to get to a building then go into that building to find the final.

 

I remember seeing a cache awhile back where one had to go into a mall to obtain a bunch of information necessary to find a cache outside the mall.

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

Accurate GPS coordinate must be an integral part of finding the cache, not just for a place to park. If after finding all the clues in the museums you can plug some numbers into a "formula" to obtain a set of coordinates, then navigate to those coordinates to find the final it should be okay, but you can't just use parking coordinates to get to a building then go into that building to find the final.

 

I remember seeing a cache awhile back where one had to go into a mall to obtain a bunch of information necessary to find a cache outside the mall.

 

Okay, I can understand this. If we did this, what would we use for our initial coordinates on the cache page? The GPSr cannot be used indoors, so how would we handle this? Maybe make initial coords be the front door of the museum and say on the cache page to "go inside and find "x" for coords to Stage 2 (Final Stage?)

 

I don't suppose you remember the name of that mall cache? That sounds like a really cool idea! If not, don't worry about it. Just thought I would ask.

[+Pork King]

This one isn't that mall cache, but similar concept. The coords on the cache page lead to the front door. You then have to go inside, finding all the info to plug into a formula to find the final cache (located outside)

Let's Go Krogering #2

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

This one isn't that mall cache, but similar concept. The coords on the cache page lead to the front door. You then have to go inside, finding all the info to plug into a formula to find the final cache (located outside)

Let's Go Krogering #2

 

Thanks Pork King for the link to this cache. This is exactly what we had in mind! Interesting, though, that it is a Puzzle Cache, which is what we originally thought we would have to do.

 

I don't know about everyone else's area, but around here, both Multi's and Puzzle caches get very few visits. We really want these caches to be visited, because they are very interesting places, so we want to make this very easy. I think, here, a Puzzle cache, that is easy, might have a slight edge over a Multi in terms of the initial look-see from people to decide if they want to go for it.

[+Printess Caroline]

This one isn't that mall cache, but similar concept. The coords on the cache page lead to the front door. You then have to go inside, finding all the info to plug into a formula to find the final cache (located outside)

Let's Go Krogering #2

 

That's cool, but wouldn't it be even cooler if there were a recipe on the listing that required those ingredients?

[+Coldgears]

This one isn't that mall cache, but similar concept. The coords on the cache page lead to the front door. You then have to go inside, finding all the info to plug into a formula to find the final cache (located outside)

Let's Go Krogering #2

 

Thanks Pork King for the link to this cache. This is exactly what we had in mind! Interesting, though, that it is a Puzzle Cache, which is what we originally thought we would have to do.

 

I don't know about everyone else's area, but around here, both Multi's and Puzzle caches get very few visits. We really want these caches to be visited, because they are very interesting places, so we want to make this very easy. I think, here, a Puzzle cache, that is easy, might have a slight edge over a Multi in terms of the initial look-see from people to decide if they want to go for it.

 

You're confusing Muti caches with offset caches. An offset is allowed to have only one actual physical container, whereas a multi has to have more than one. The only reason an offset is listed as a multi is because Groundspeak didn't want to make a new symbol for it. If you listed it as a mystery you'd be listing it wrong. You should have the coords at the front door and tell them to visit exhibit X and/or X. They'd use that to figure out the coords, once they get the coords they use that to find the secede "stage". You are allowed to only have one physical container with offset caches. Also, they would use the GPS as an integral part of the cache because they have to use it to find the actual physical container. A great example would be, GC1WFGZ. Although, the reviewer MAY require it to be listed puzzle cache because the coords aren't leading you to the exact exhibit. I doubt that would actually happen as this still is technically a offset.

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

This one isn't that mall cache, but similar concept. The coords on the cache page lead to the front door. You then have to go inside, finding all the info to plug into a formula to find the final cache (located outside)

Let's Go Krogering #2

 

Thanks Pork King for the link to this cache. This is exactly what we had in mind! Interesting, though, that it is a Puzzle Cache, which is what we originally thought we would have to do.

 

I don't know about everyone else's area, but around here, both Multi's and Puzzle caches get very few visits. We really want these caches to be visited, because they are very interesting places, so we want to make this very easy. I think, here, a Puzzle cache, that is easy, might have a slight edge over a Multi in terms of the initial look-see from people to decide if they want to go for it.

 

You're confusing Muti caches with offset caches. An offset is allowed to have only one actual physical container, whereas a multi has to have more than one. The only reason an offset is listed as a multi is because Groundspeak didn't want to make a new symbol for it. If you listed it as a mystery you'd be listing it wrong. You should have the coords at the front door and tell them to visit exhibit X and/or X. They'd use that to figure out the coords, once they get the coords they use that to find the secede "stage". You are allowed to only have one physical container with offset caches. Also, they would use the GPS as an integral part of the cache because they have to use it to find the actual physical container. A great example would be, GC1WFGZ. Although, the reviewer MAY require it to be listed puzzle cache because the coords aren't leading you to the exact exhibit. I doubt that would actually happen as this still is technically a offset.

 

So do you think that the Krogering cache is mis-labeled as a puzzle cache? Should it be a Multi? I do understand the offset Multi... read the guidelines very thoroughly. The conundrum is that it seems as though this type of cache could almost fall into either category (as least it does have components of both.) I do see a minuscule difference, though, in differentiating the two. With the offset multi, the coords are given to you by saying "find the coords on "x" " whereas the puzzle, even with the same layout, might require the cacher to do some "solving" to get the coords with help from item "x" ? Does that make sense? Even with a Puzzle/Mystery cache you have to use a GPS to find the location of the cache once you have found the coords from the "offset" object/display/whatever.

 

This is tough because there is such a small distinction between these two types in a situation such as the one that we are proposing! Again, the Krogering is exactly what we want to do, so it's confusing that it got published as a Puzzle cache! GC1WFGZ is quite a bit more complicated in terms of obtaining the coords to the find the actual physical cache. And, again, we would be telling the cacher exactly which exhibit to go to on the cache page, once inside, to find the coords... we don't plan on making it a puzzle.

[+niraD]

Here's a multi-cache that uses an indoor waypoint: Benny

 

As far as I could tell, the coordinates for the indoor waypoint were spot on, even though there was no GPS reception there. There are ways to get accurate coordinates for such locations, and there are ways for others to find such locations using those coordinates.

 

But you don't need to do that. You could publish the coordinates for the parking lot, tell seekers how to find the necessary information inside the museum, and then use the coordinates derived from that information to locate the final (thus fulfilling the requirement for using accurate GPS coordinates as part of the hunt).

[+NYPaddleCacher]

This one isn't that mall cache, but similar concept. The coords on the cache page lead to the front door. You then have to go inside, finding all the info to plug into a formula to find the final cache (located outside)

Let's Go Krogering #2

 

Thanks Pork King for the link to this cache. This is exactly what we had in mind! Interesting, though, that it is a Puzzle Cache, which is what we originally thought we would have to do.

 

I don't know about everyone else's area, but around here, both Multi's and Puzzle caches get very few visits. We really want these caches to be visited, because they are very interesting places, so we want to make this very easy. I think, here, a Puzzle cache, that is easy, might have a slight edge over a Multi in terms of the initial look-see from people to decide if they want to go for it.

 

You're confusing Muti caches with offset caches. An offset is allowed to have only one actual physical container, whereas a multi has to have more than one.

 

I've seen lots of multi's where there was only one physical container. The the use of numbers on graves stones or some sort of sign that you've got to read numbers from to derive the final (even a subsequent stage that isn't the final) coordinates. I've also seen puzzle caches that essentially use the same method. My interpretation is that a multi must the published coordinates are for either a physical container, or use a virtual stage at that location (with information on the cache page on what to do when you get there) that will lead you to the subsequent stage. For an unknown cache, the published coordinates may have nothing to do with the final coordinates, but as I said, sometimes there is some sort of puzzle that needs to be solved but it wouldn't require a physical container at that location.

 

Some people will systematically ignore puzzle caches, some will ignore mulits, and some will ignore both. If I am traveling somewhere I'll usually filter out multis for an initial PQ (and pretty much always do that for caches along a route). However, I'll usually do a second PQ that only contains multi-caches and unknown caches and look over the listings to see if there any that stand out that I might want to add to the list of traditional caches. If it's an unknown cache for which I can get the final coordinates without visiting the published coordinates I may try to solve it before I leave. If you want to increase the number of finders for a multi cache you should included how many stages it has, a ballpark number for how far away they are, and the general direction for the final. I've I'm traveling east to west and find a first stage of a multi only to find that I have to backtrack 2 miles I'll probably just forget it and continue to the west. I found the first stage of a multi a couple of years ago, got the coordinates for the final (which turned about 12 miles out of my way) and I still haven't finished it.

[+Desert_Trailblazers]

So, is the general consensus that the Kroger cache should have been a Multi and not a Puzzle? If so, is there any compelling reason why it shouldn't stay a Puzzle? (Just in theory, of course.) It obviously got published as a Puzzle, but then I understand that these issues are up to the individual reviewers. Is it hit and miss with the review process if we would rather do it as a Puzzle just for the sake of perhaps drawing a little more traffic to it? But now we do understand how to work it as an offset multi. Thanks!

[+briansnat]

So, is the general consensus that the Kroger cache should have been a Multi and not a Puzzle? If so, is there any compelling reason why it shouldn't stay a Puzzle? (Just in theory, of course.) It obviously got published as a Puzzle, but then I understand that these issues are up to the individual reviewers. Is it hit and miss with the review process if we would rather do it as a Puzzle just for the sake of perhaps drawing a little more traffic to it? But now we do understand how to work it as an offset multi. Thanks!

 

This Kroger cache falls into a bit of a gray area (BTW it violates the commercial cache guideline which wasn't enforced as strictly when it was placed as it is today). The general rule of thumb is that if there is something at the posted coordinates which provides a clue to actual cache, it is a multi. If there is nothing at the

posted coordinates then it is a puzzle. Though this is a rule of thumb there are exceptions (for example challenge caches are at the posted coordinates, yet are listed as puzzles) and overlaps.

 

In the case of this cache there is nothing at the posted coordinates. You need to wander around the store to find the required objects so a argument could be made that it is a puzzle/mystery. But it could be argued that the store itself is at the posted coordinates and contains the clue to the cache, which would make it a multi.

 

Okay, I can understand this. If we did this, what would we use for our initial coordinates on the cache page? The GPSr cannot be used indoors, so how would we handle this? Maybe make initial coords be the front door of the museum and say on the cache page to "go inside and find "x" for coords to Stage 2 (Final Stage?)

 

How about hiding a small container at the posted coordinates that contain instructions to enter the museum and obtain the info that gives the location of the final cache.