Why are pictures needed?

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

You know if we are going to go back and forth on this permission deal perhaps you should raise this as a different topic considering this is about photo requirements. But saying such on the permission topic.

 

Point One, you are taking a lot of faith that people are all rule and law biding citizens and if a place is marked people won't go there. Come on seriously? People get bored with trails and walked off or they go take a "short cut".

 

Second Point, Not all places that are sensitive are marked on your park maps and brochures. Why one may ask? So that people won't go there and disturb these sites. You would be surprised how quickly a rare plant will mysteriously grow legs and walk away if somebody thinks that would be a fine specimen in their garden. Or lets look at a archaeological site which may have several dozen artifacts which to the right collector may be worth a small fortune. Sometimes the best defense for an area is having the general public think that its not there at all.

 

The fact is yes the majority of the population obey the laws and set by our parks and governments but there is always a few that ruin it. That is why permission is needed. Its to help make the Park aware of the caches and where they are being placed. The bigger question that needs to be asked is whats the big deal about asking permission?

 

Finally not all Earthcaches are on National Park Land. I've found caches in State Parks, Road Cuts, Strip Mines, and private property (not owned by the EC owner). So its better to just cover all your bases and require permission from all. Again I do not understand how making a phone call and asking if you can place an Earthcache is such a big deal?

 

I am glad we can agree on one thing and I'll never use the photo word in one of these threads! Now to the fun!

 

Point one: While I agree the permission subject is off thread, I didn't bring it up. The permission "deal " is something I only responded to. The p____ subject is well worn so someone introduced a more meaningful topic and I reacted to it! You must have also found it interesting because you also reacted to the topic deviation! I'm glad that there is at least three of us interested.

Point two: Do you really think as a taxpayer I need do get permission from a Park I helped pay for and help maintain and am allowed to go in the first place? Any earthcacher worth his/her salt has an environmental conscience. Will permission to develop an EarthCache prevent all of those nasty things to the environment that you are worried about? I see this almost everyday in geocaching. It's called bush whacking ! Like you said, "people get bored and wonder off trails." Permission will prevent this? You got to be kidding!

Again, you don't "place" an Earthcache. You point out something to see that is already available but not called an EarthCache. The fact there is a trail doesn't do one thing to prevent short cuts! For some goofy reason or another a GPSr doesn't stay on the trail! I have never been in a National Park where you were allowed to wonder into off-limits territory. Every spot/area is clearly marked with maps, signs, etc.

Point two: Maybe when you are a little more experienced you will discover that life has a lot of "big deals "! People sell out their principles every day without questioning WHY I grew up during the Viet Nam era and we helped to reteach America to ask WHY No I don't mind asking permission and I don't mind paying for your and my fun in a park, but after seeing several wars and a lot of stupid things come from governments, I have the right to ask WHY ! Deal or no big deal!

Last point: strip mines, road cuts and private property have nothing to do with the argument. We are talking about National Parks!

One more time, my local congressman said and I repeat, "let me know if you are ever denied permission for something you don't need permission for!" I suggest you ask yours!

[+Geoextreme87]

Ahh yes the classic Taxpayer response.

 

Have you considered how much your money actually goes to the NPS?

I mean that taxpayer money covers everything from our country's defense, education, and highways (and much much more). Even then lets split that money thats left over for the NPS to all of our National Parks, Seashores, Battlefields, etc. The fact is your individual contribution to the NPS isn't that much.

 

Infact a large portion of their revenue does not come from your so called Taxpayer dollars but from funds created by the US congress, one of these being the Land and Water Conservatiuon Fund which was created in 1965 and is scheduled to continue in existence until 2015. Where does it pick up its revenue? Well that would be national park user fees as well as of all things ironic a share of payments from offshore oil-drilling leases.

 

Second Point is I have no issue with Earthcaches being set in NPS. In fact I encourage it (as does the NPS to my understanding). The permission deal is more to deal with where exactly you place the coordinates as to not cause problems. In some National Parks this is pretty easy without doing any damage as they focus on the geology (i.e. Yellowstone and Zion). But others National Parks the geology may not be what the key focus is on (though the geology may be a major role player). That means the great outcrops or features may not be directly linked to a trail and some divergence is necessary. This is where permission becomes very important for the reasons I've listed before.

 

With the correlation of permission with National Parks vs State & local Parks and Private Land. I see this issue as the same thing just different levels of owner ship. However seeing that you wish to focus on just NPS I can play along with that.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

Ahh yes the classic Taxpayer response.

 

Have you considered how much your money actually goes to the NPS?

I mean that taxpayer money covers everything from our country's defense, education, and highways (and much much more). Even then lets split that money thats left over for the NPS to all of our National Parks, Seashores, Battlefields, etc. The fact is your individual contribution to the NPS isn't that much.

 

Infact a large portion of their revenue does not come from your so called Taxpayer dollars but from funds created by the US congress, one of these being the Land and Water Conservatiuon Fund which was created in 1965 and is scheduled to continue in existence until 2015. Where does it pick up its revenue? Well that would be national park user fees as well as of all things ironic a share of payments from offshore oil-drilling leases.

 

Second Point is I have no issue with Earthcaches being set in NPS. In fact I encourage it (as does the NPS to my understanding). The permission deal is more to deal with where exactly you place the coordinates as to not cause problems. In some National Parks this is pretty easy without doing any damage as they focus on the geology (i.e. Yellowstone and Zion). But others National Parks the geology may not be what the key focus is on (though the geology may be a major role player). That means the great outcrops or features may not be directly linked to a trail and some divergence is necessary. This is where permission becomes very important for the reasons I've listed before.

 

With the correlation of permission with National Parks vs State & local Parks and Private Land. I see this issue as the same thing just different levels of owner ship. However seeing that you wish to focus on just NPS I can play along with that.

 

"Ahh yes the classic Taxpayer response."

Just what does that mean? You don't pay taxes and the rest of us who do are categorized as giving the "the classic Taxpayer response." Maybe cracking a history book will help you realize that this country was founded on the "the classic Taxpayer response". Put aside Earth Science 101 and read a little in History 101. There you will find a story or two about the "Boston Tea Party", war protests, etc. etc.

Your math skills are worthy of merit. You figured out that I actually didn't pay the total costs of all our National Parks. I thought I had, but now I guess I will not be allowed to visit them again!

The fact that you "have no issue with Earthcaches being set in NPS. In fact I encourage it" gives me solace! What does that have to do with the argument?

Comparing National Parks with private land is virtually like comparing apples and oranges.

A little reminder, when you request permission to develop an EC in a National Park/Forest you do not give the coordinates. You describe the place and that's it. Your assumption that they "deal with where exactly you place the coordinates" is totally invalid. I have never once been requested to provide coordinates for an EC to Park personnel. As a courtesy, I always send the Url for the EC page, but that is after the fact. Again, permission or no permission doesn't change the possibility of eco-murder. Stupid people will plow through the lilies if they so desire! GPSrs point the straight-line direction not the follow the trail route!

The permission "deal" was started by GSA not the Park system. Once , we had to get permission from a traditional cache owner if there was a nearby cache. Now we don't. Naturally, the Parks accepted co-ownership of the permission concept as most bureaucrat's would do and it became a necessity by both parties (GSA and the government).

My last point which you haven't addressed is what my congressman said. "We own the Parks/Forests so for EarthCaching, they better not deny developing them and/or finding them!" Go ask your congressman.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

[+Geoextreme87]

Ahh yes the classic Taxpayer response.

 

Have you considered how much your money actually goes to the NPS?

I mean that taxpayer money covers everything from our country's defense, education, and highways (and much much more). Even then lets split that money thats left over for the NPS to all of our National Parks, Seashores, Battlefields, etc. The fact is your individual contribution to the NPS isn't that much.

 

Infact a large portion of their revenue does not come from your so called Taxpayer dollars but from funds created by the US congress, one of these being the Land and Water Conservatiuon Fund which was created in 1965 and is scheduled to continue in existence until 2015. Where does it pick up its revenue? Well that would be national park user fees as well as of all things ironic a share of payments from offshore oil-drilling leases.

 

Second Point is I have no issue with Earthcaches being set in NPS. In fact I encourage it (as does the NPS to my understanding). The permission deal is more to deal with where exactly you place the coordinates as to not cause problems. In some National Parks this is pretty easy without doing any damage as they focus on the geology (i.e. Yellowstone and Zion). But others National Parks the geology may not be what the key focus is on (though the geology may be a major role player). That means the great outcrops or features may not be directly linked to a trail and some divergence is necessary. This is where permission becomes very important for the reasons I've listed before.

 

With the correlation of permission with National Parks vs State & local Parks and Private Land. I see this issue as the same thing just different levels of owner ship. However seeing that you wish to focus on just NPS I can play along with that.

 

"Ahh yes the classic Taxpayer response."

Just what does that mean? You don't pay taxes and the rest of us who do are categorized as giving the "the classic Taxpayer response." Maybe cracking a history book will help you realize that this country was founded on the "the classic Taxpayer response". Put aside Earth Science 101 and read a little in History 101. There you will find a story or two about the "Boston Tea Party", war protests, etc. etc.

Your math skills are worthy of merit. You figured out that I actually didn't pay the total costs of all our National Parks. I thought I had, but now I guess I will not be allowed to visit them again!

The fact that you "have no issue with Earthcaches being set in NPS. In fact I encourage it" gives me solace! What does that have to do with the argument?

Comparing National Parks with private land is virtually like comparing apples and oranges.

A little reminder, when you request permission to develop an EC in a National Park/Forest you do not give the coordinates. You describe the place and that's it. Your assumption that they "deal with where exactly you place the coordinates" is totally invalid. I have never once been requested to provide coordinates for an EC to Park personnel. As a courtesy, I always send the Url for the EC page, but that is after the fact. Again, permission or no permission doesn't change the possibility of eco-murder. Stupid people will plow through the lilies if they so desire! GPSrs point the straight-line direction not the follow the trail route!

The permission "deal" was started by GSA not the Park system. Once , we had to get permission from a traditional cache owner if there was a nearby cache. Now we don't. Naturally, the Parks accepted co-ownership of the permission concept as most bureaucrat's would do and it became a necessity by both parties (GSA and the government).

My last point which you haven't addressed is what my congressman said. "We own the Parks/Forests so for EarthCaching, they better not deny developing them and/or finding them!" Go ask your congressman.

 

It seems I have stepped on your toes a little bit now also. For that I apologize. But the arrogance to assume I have not worked and pay the same good ole USA taxes that you have is pathetic. I've been working since I was 14 and paying those taxes just like you and will to continue to pay those taxes until the day I die. So lets gets one thing straight here and that I'm just as much an American Citizen as you! So as to your congressman as you petition for what you believe in I'll petition for mine. (Its really sad WE had to bring politics into Earthcaching)

 

I also want to point out at no time did I say "eco-murder" which is a bit strong to the mere concern in which all I'm saying is its important to have the park officials at least know that an Earthcache has been set up in thier park and where it is at.

 

You are also right that with or without permission there will be people out there that disobey but something as simple as asking if its OK to place a cache in an area of the park does help limit unintentional damage.

 

If what you say is true that the NPS doesn't require permission for an Earthcache I'm surprised but it is true I have never placed a cache on NPS Land. My answer is based on the reasons of permission in Pennsylvania State Parks which go a step further and require us to fill out a free DCNR caching permit. I just assumed the conservation efforts made at the state level would be at least equaled to that of our Federal system. But you know what they say about assuming. I guess to really answer this permission question this should be brought up with a GSA EC publisher.

 

Finally amongst all other things its just an act of RESPECT to ask the land manager before setting up any type of activity. But to complain about having to ask permission is at least to me, childish.

 

It obvious that you and I are going to disagree on this one. You know what? That is OK.

 

I say lets stop with this ranting and move on to a new topic. (Who knows maybe we'll even agree with each other )

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

I will submit to your superior intellect if you can prove this statement is correct, "If what you say is true that the NPS doesn't require permission for an Earthcache . Better yet, just prove I even said it!!! We were talking about requiring coordinates not permission. I give up!

Like you, this argument bores me and was won along time ago! I give up!

Do you really feel that, "But to complain about having to ask permission is at least to me, childish. ? Another earthcacher originally posed the question for which you in error attribute the authorship to me. He as well as I were discussing the point before you made it a complaint! Childish? That's a new low! I give up!

P.S. I'm kinda curious, where did petition come from? I didn't petition anyone, I just asked my congressman for an opinion. He gave it to me. I'm not like Martin Luther and didn't nail anything on the church door!

No, don't bother answering any of the questions.

You are the winner! I give up!

Edited September 11, 2009 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

[POLE POSITION]

You know if we are going to go back and forth on this permission deal perhaps you should raise this as a different topic considering this is about photo requirements. But saying such on the permission topic.

 

Point One, you are taking a lot of faith that people are all rule and law biding citizens and if a place is marked people won't go there. Come on seriously? People get bored with trails and walked off or they go take a "short cut".

 

Second Point, Not all places that are sensitive are marked on your park maps and brochures. Why one may ask? So that people won't go there and disturb these sites. You would be surprised how quickly a rare plant will mysteriously grow legs and walk away if somebody thinks that would be a fine specimen in their garden. Or lets look at a archaeological site which may have several dozen artifacts which to the right collector may be worth a small fortune. Sometimes the best defense for an area is having the general public think that its not there at all.

 

The fact is yes the majority of the population obey the laws and set by our parks and governments but there is always a few that ruin it. That is why permission is needed. Its to help make the Park aware of the caches and where they are being placed. The bigger question that needs to be asked is whats the big deal about asking permission?

 

Finally not all Earthcaches are on National Park Land. I've found caches in State Parks, Road Cuts, Strip Mines, and private property (not owned by the EC owner). So its better to just cover all your bases and require permission from all. Again I do not understand how making a phone call and asking if you can place an Earthcache is such a big deal?

 

I am glad we can agree on one thing and I'll never use the photo word in one of these threads! Now to the fun!

 

Point one: While I agree the permission subject is off thread, I didn't bring it up. The permission "deal " is something I only responded to. The p____ subject is well worn so someone introduced a more meaningful topic and I reacted to it! You must have also found it interesting because you also reacted to the topic deviation! I'm glad that there is at least three of us interested.

Point two: Do you really think as a taxpayer I need do get permission from a Park I helped pay for and help maintain and am allowed to go in the first place? Any earthcacher worth his/her salt has an environmental conscience. Will permission to develop an EarthCache prevent all of those nasty things to the environment that you are worried about? I see this almost everyday in geocaching. It's called bush whacking ! Like you said, "people get bored and wonder off trails." Permission will prevent this? You got to be kidding!

Again, you don't "place" an Earthcache. You point out something to see that is already available but not called an EarthCache. The fact there is a trail doesn't do one thing to prevent short cuts! For some goofy reason or another a GPSr doesn't stay on the trail! I have never been in a National Park where you were allowed to wonder into off-limits territory. Every spot/area is clearly marked with maps, signs, etc.

Point two: Maybe when you are a little more experienced you will discover that life has a lot of "big deals "! People sell out their principles every day without questioning WHY I grew up during the Viet Nam era and we helped to reteach America to ask WHY No I don't mind asking permission and I don't mind paying for your and my fun in a park, but after seeing several wars and a lot of stupid things come from governments, I have the right to ask WHY ! Deal or no big deal!

Last point: strip mines, road cuts and private property have nothing to do with the argument. We are talking about National Parks!

One more time, my local congressman said and I repeat, "let me know if you are ever denied permission for something you don't need permission for!" I suggest you ask yours!

In my local national park (Chickisaw National Recreation Area), wondering off the trail is a big deal! the same people who litter wonder off the trail, and litter there too! It's not about bushwacking (which is quite fun in my opinion) but about protecting the wildlife and ecosystem from litter.

Edited September 11, 2009 by POLE POSITION

[+South Lyon Trekkers]

I thought I'd revive this thread to vent a little on a troublesome picture issue.

 

I've become quite good at taking a picture of myself for ECs. No problem. Recently I've come across ECs that ask for a picture while holding my GPSr, my pH kit, facing a certain direction, while balancing on one foot, and singing the national anthem. Well, you get the idea. Asking to hold too many things AND take the picture. Some thought would be nice.

 

While I'm at it, I cache with a friend who has an Oregon 550t. Her GPSr IS her camera. How does she get it in the picture?

[+dexter-cacher]

Lots of discussion on this topic... Almost every eartcache requires the cacher to answer questions and post a pic... I agree... It's too easy to answer the questions with a little google internet research hence there is proof required that you actually went there... This avoids "virtual" visits by dishonest cachers out there... Most EC owners only ask for a pic of your GPSr at the site and some want a pic of the cacher... For those of you who don't want to post your mug on the internet, scribble a sign with your name on it and put it next to the GPSr in the pic with the EC in the background...I have seen cachers who have printed their names using a dymo tool and stuck that on the side of their GPSr...Most EC owners will not deny these types of pics...As for affording a digital camera, c'mon...digital cameras are available on almost every model cell phone and the file can be uploaded to your computer with the cable that comes with the phone... Or go buy one...I have seen them as cheap as $ 15...Mind you its not a camera you would take wedding pics with but hey it will show your proof of visit to the EC and its a small price to play the game honestly... I support the picture requirement for an EC just to stop all those dishonest arm chair loggers...

 

PS. Why is it that for every solution offered to the OP, there is always a response of why or how he can't do that...??

[POLE POSITION]

 

PS. Why is it that for every solution offered to the OP, there is always a response of why or how he can't do that...??

You have a point. The main reason is, (hate to be negative here) I've done my best to try out those different options before posting. btw, did you see my response where I asked for a specific link to the digital camera's? Anyways, thanks for the comment, and trying to keep me positive.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

[daveindeal]

i have a signature chip that has my avatar logo on it>

 

i drop one into every cache like the buisness cards others leave behind, in all my photo's at earth caches or micros that they wont fit into i just snap the chip in the photo..... they get the photo as proof and it has a element that is unique to my username.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2009 by daveindeal

[+Team Noodles]

POLEPOSITION Does your phone have a MicroSD card? If so you can pick up a MicroSD card reader for around $10. Then just pull the card and download the pictures with the card reader. I have an 8gig card in my phone and this is the way I upload/download pics, music, and everything else I don't really need on a phone.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

No. My phone requires a special kind of microsd card that costs about $40.

 

if its a 2009 phone it will have a camera and ways of getting pics onto your pc via cable, just learn to work your phone? Google it and job done?

Edited October 29, 2009 by Ryuchan

[+geodarts]

I thought about this thread and re-read it when I wrote the descriptions for the last earthcaches that I developed. For these particular locations, I felt that at least 98% of the people visiting the area would have a camera with them (or at least a camera phone). I cannot imagine visiting the areas without something to take a picture of two. People go out of their way to get to these spots for the scenic beauty or history and most people plan accordingly.

 

So with three of the caches I ended up asking people to take a picture of a geological formation (with no requirement that they or their gpsr be in the pictures) as a way to focus on the geology. I pay more attention to something if I take a picture of it, so a photo can be part of the educational experience. I think photos taken at different angles, at different times of the day, will enhance the cache page and people's geological understanding. Indeed, as it says in the guidelines, "EarthCache sites will highlight the principle of collect photos - not samples."

 

In another, where the geology perhaps is less picturesque, I decided to ask for a picture of the visitor or their gpsr -- again, I don't think its solely to prove that someone was there so much as it is to help people focus. Hopefully, people will be more creative than sticking their gpsr out with their hand and snapping a quick shot. There are other ways to do it.

 

Of course I would never delete a log because the picture was not available. Even in this digital age, there are many reasons why that could be. So I tried to couch it as a request - "please take a picture."

Edited November 17, 2009 by Erickson

[+Papafuz & Mama]

Why do so many earthcaches need to have a picture as a requirment? I don't have an efficient way of getting pictures onto my computer. This problem has kept me from looking for several earthcache, and from getting my bronze ec master. For me, making a picture an ec requirment is the equivelant of making and that ec pm only. There are a few owners who have had pity on me, but not most. Any cheap (as in $$$) suggestions on how to get over this? I understand a picture as an occaisonal requirment, but for 99% of ecs? Why?

 

I found a cheap digital camera at WalMart for around $10.00 that I am going to place in a cache for finders to use.

[+danieloliveira]

Why do so many earthcaches need to have a picture as a requirment? I don't have an efficient way of getting pictures onto my computer. This problem has kept me from looking for several earthcache, and from getting my bronze ec master. For me, making a picture an ec requirment is the equivelant of making and that ec pm only. There are a few owners who have had pity on me, but not most. Any cheap (as in $$$) suggestions on how to get over this? I understand a picture as an occaisonal requirment, but for 99% of ecs? Why?

 

Because in the end every EarthCache developer has a deep fear that the visit was virtual. Simple! and as I've said before I think that and EC that only requires a photo as proof of being there is a weak EC.

[Pajaholic]

Having read through this thread and noted the age of it, I suspect the OP has resolved the issue by now. If not, I know the OP's cell phone has Bluetooth and a built-in camera. So I suspect the cheapest way to go would be to buy a cheap Bluetooth adapter from eBay or similar (several for under $5 with free shipping when I looked just now).

 

FWIW, my only camera is the one in my cell phone and this is more than adequate for cache-log photos. For that, I resize them so that each dimension is half original size before uploading them.

 

HTH,

 

Geoff