Anyone want to help me with Below Above (GC1VEFG)?

[+tsiolkovsky]

Anyone in the Bradford-Upon-Avon want to help me with this rather fun sounding 5/5 cache?

 

Normally I'm a solitary cacher and happy to take on most things on my own, but all my knocking about with the Subterranea Britannica group (http://www.subbrit.org.uk) has taught me you never tackle a cache like this on your tod.

 

URL to cache: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...e9-36c0cdc94e9a

 

Rik

[+keehotee]

PM sent

[+tsiolkovsky]

PM sent

 

Thanks... BTW is piracy still a crime???

[+Bear and Ragged]

yep...

[+Von-Horst]

PM sent

 

Ditto.

[+BareClawz]

LOL.

However there several the narrow boats in the area which fly skull and cross bones and many boats seem to be manned by very pirate looking people!

So any other pirates shouldn't stick out too much

[+tsiolkovsky]

LOL.

However there several the narrow boats in the area which fly skull and cross bones and many boats seem to be manned by very pirate looking people!

So any other pirates shouldn't stick out too much

 

Indeed so. Still kicking myself for not looking up when I went through that lock a month back, but I was more pre-occupied in not stuffing the prow of the 65' into the side of the lock.

 

Actually contemplating hiring out a day boat from Hilperton to tackle this one. Of course I'd need a crew for that...

 

Rik

[+Von-Horst]

Arrr!

[The Hearse]

I had been wondering about how caches of this type relates to the law? The description alerts seekers to the need for specialized equipment but not what that specialized equipment might be, the nature of the hazard or the level of expertise the cache demands. Doesn’t this contravene the duty of care and if so is the duty of care limited to the setter or does it include the approver? Do we have any solicitors prepared to give an informed opinion?

[+keehotee]

I had been wondering about how caches of this type relates to the law? The description alerts seekers to the need for specialized equipment but not what that specialized equipment might be, the nature of the hazard or the level of expertise the cache demands. Doesn’t this contravene the duty of care and if so is the duty of care limited to the setter or does it include the approver? Do we have any solicitors prepared to give an informed opinion?

 

Volenti non fit injuria.

 

What duty of care? This isn't work, so the Health and Safety at Work Act doesn't apply. Nobody's being forced to find the cache against their will.

 

(Not a solicitor, but have studied law at degree level.)

[+tsiolkovsky]

I had been wondering about how caches of this type relates to the law? The description alerts seekers to the need for specialized equipment but not what that specialized equipment might be, the nature of the hazard or the level of expertise the cache demands. Doesn’t this contravene the duty of care and if so is the duty of care limited to the setter or does it include the approver? Do we have any solicitors prepared to give an informed opinion?

 

Volenti non fit injuria.

 

What duty of care? This isn't work, so the Health and Safety at Work Act doesn't apply. Nobody's being forced to find the cache against their will.

 

(Not a solicitor, but have studied law at degree level.)

 

Totally and utterly agree with you...

 

Actually as far as I can see the specialised equipment is as far as I can work out:

 

1. A boat (preferrably narrow)

2. A library - for research

3. A Web-browser - for further research

4. A torch.

[+keehotee]

Careful with that torch Rik - nasty things in the wrong hands

[+BareClawz]

Probably like anyone who posts caches of this type I didn't add what specialisd equipment would be needed as it would give information away.

So if I was to rewrite Below Above. it would read something like..

Start at ...

make your way to....

Specialised equipment needed at this point;

boat or similar craft,

life jackets,

life saving certificate,

lifeguard,

warm clothing,

spare clothing,

As this stage might take some time to complete also required;

packed lunch with appropiate allergy labels applied, prepared to hygene regulations by appointed food preperation hygenist,

water in sterile container,

Also before attempting this and any other cache please forward to myself and all members of Geocaching.co.uk fully signed waiver of risk.

 

Or on the other hand forget that, use common sense and get on and enjoy yourselves.

But as this is posted as a 5/5 that alone should give a warning that it won't be easy.

I am still planning two others similar but one is in a much bigger mine and the other is in a mine that will involve crawls, narrow passages etc! I hate to think on the warnings I'd have to give.

 

Clawz

[+Von-Horst]

I am still planning two others...one is in a much bigger mine and the other is in a mine that will involve crawls, narrow passages etc!

Clawz

 

Looking forward to these already!

 

Mike

Edited August 26, 2009 by Von-Horst

[+tsiolkovsky]

 

Looking forward to these already!

 

 

Not the only one... Well maybe not the crawls - due to the fact that I got jammed in the Cheese Press once...

[The Hearse]

I have taken advice and I will be acting on that advice to protect myself. I have however been cautioned against reproducing the advice here without the text having been checked first. Suffice to say that what has been said in some contributions in this thread may not be correct and those setting caches should satisfy themselves of their responsibilties when doing so.

 

This advice threw up other issues, some related to the seeker when involved in activities related to more adventurous caches. They may wish to check whether their personal accident insurance covers them paying specific attention to exclusion clauses.

Edited August 27, 2009 by The Hearse

[+keehotee]

I have taken advice and I will be acting on that advice to protect myself. I have however been cautioned against reproducing the advice here without the text having been checked first. Suffice to say that what has been said in some contributions in this thread may not be correct.

 

This advice threw up other issues some related to the seeker when involved in activities related to more adventurous caches. They may wish to check whether their personal accident insurance covers them paying specific attention to exclusion clauses.

 

This is hardly the first cache you've looked at in the last 7 years.

Liability and duty of care will apply equally as much to a 1/1 as to a 5/5.

I don't think you'll find too many people in the UK with personal accident insurance, but note that the majority of your finds are in the US - perhaps you'd be better off posting your concerns on a forum more likely to be read over there?

Or maybe you need to find yourself a "safer" hobby

 

Edited to add - and when you joined the site you agreed to the following within the terms and conditions, that may have slipped your memory...

Geocaching, hiking, backpacking, and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking or placing a cache. Be prepared for Your journey and be sure to check the current weather and conditions before heading outdoors. Always exercise common sense and caution. You assume all risks arising in connection with seeking a cache or any other related activity.

Edited August 27, 2009 by keehotee

[+Von-Horst]

From the term and conditions that we all signed up to when we registered;

 

"Geocaching, hiking, backpacking, and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking or placing a cache. Be prepared for Your journey and be sure to check the current weather and conditions before heading outdoors. Always exercise common sense and caution. You assume all risks arising in connection with seeking a cache or any other related activity".

 

Mike.

 

Ooops - beaten to the post...

Edited August 27, 2009 by Von-Horst

[The Hearse]

Edited to add - and when you joined the site you agreed to the following within the terms and conditions, that may have slipped your memory...You assume all risks arising in connection with seeking a cache or any other related activity.

It had not and I asked about this as well. I will leave you to find out how much weight that statements carries. Cleary you wish to ridicule my concern and therefore I will bow out of this thread.

[+Von-Horst]

Cleary you wish to ridicule my concern and therefore I will bow out of this thread.

 

I don't and didn't - it was merely that your point was not made clear and that your postings appeared deliberately vague and, dare I say it, threatening.

 

The cache listing makes it clear that special equipment is required for this cache. You have obviously realised that.

 

It seems reasonable to expect those seeking the cache to make one or more trips to this one to work out what equipment is needed for each stage if they do not have it to hand. At each stage the seeker may decide not to proceed.

 

The lisiting and common sense tells you that this cache (and again, it is unclear why this cache in particular was singled out) may present a greater personal risk than a micro in a supermaket car park.

 

There is no compulsion on a third party to attempt this cache. As with any other outdoor hobby or pursuit, a geocacher should only attempt things that are within their own limits.

 

Yes, people have been hurt caching. several have died over the years (in the US, and normally of heat exhaustion).

 

The risk is sometimes the attraction. There is however, a world of difference between doing something with an inherent risk (which steps can be taken to reduce) and something that it outright dangerous.

 

Perhaps if you were to more clearly express what your concerns are, as opposed to rushing off to pester a tame solicitor, you would get a better reception.

 

Best wishes and stay safe,

 

Mike

Edited August 27, 2009 by Von-Horst

[+tsiolkovsky]

Edited to add - and when you joined the site you agreed to the following within the terms and conditions, that may have slipped your memory...You assume all risks arising in connection with seeking a cache or any other related activity.

It had not and I asked about this as well. I will leave you to find out how much weight that statements carries. Cleary you wish to ridicule my concern and therefore I will bow out of this thread.

 

The key words are common sense. Sadly something that seems to be lacking in this day and age.

 

To do this cache, like all others it is an exercise in risk assessment and mitigation.

 

If the risk assessment suggests that this an unacceptable level of risk then I will simply not do it. Here is an example:

 

In swindon there is a multi which has as it's GZ a spot exceptionally close to a children's play-ground. I am a bloke and a general solitary cacher. Therefore it may look suspicious to passers by for me to be loitering close to this children's play-ground. Police might be called and my ability to talk my way out of it may or may not believed. Therefore this is to me a high risk cache and the consequences of doing it out-weigh the benifits.

 

If however if I was in a mixed group or a single woman then the assessed risk would be lowered.

 

Now that's a simple example.

 

I did a similar exercise for this cache, only one that was a lot more detailed.

 

For example, the co-ordinate location. A site visit verified the conditions and precluded two options I knew to be available and informed my decision as to the way to tackle this. I won't go into too much detail as this might be considered a spoiler.

 

Then when I'd had the cache location verified, internet research via a number of caving associations provided documentary evidence in the form of site reports and pictures as to conditions within the final location. This not only informed me of the relevant equipment required but also allowed me to make an assessment of the likely risk of an incident.

 

A final site visit to the 'via' point last night also enabled me to make a final assessment and to make a firm go / no-go for this cache.

 

Oh and it may interest you to know that the whole purpose of this thread was as a risk mitigation exercise.

 

Rik

Edited August 27, 2009 by tsiolkovsky