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kayakbird

define "BOLT"

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Hi All,

 

I first looked at this one a few days ago and went back today to get some local information on the building and street names.

 

QX0208* NAD 83(1986)- 45 46 32. (N) 111 10 36. (W) SCALED

QX0208_MARKER: B = BOLT

QX0208_SETTING: 36 = BUILDING

QX0208_STABILITY: B = PROBABLY HOLD POSITION/ELEVATION WELL

QX0208

QX0208 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By

QX0208 HISTORY - UNK MONUMENTED CGS

QX0208 HISTORY - 1958 GOOD NGS

QX0208 HISTORY - 1982 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

QX0208 HISTORY - 1984 MARK NOT FOUND USGS

QX0208

QX0208 STATION DESCRIPTION

QX0208

QX0208''DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1958

QX0208''IN BELGRADE.

QX0208''AT BELGRADE, ABOUT 1 BLOCK NORTH AND THENCE 1 BLOCK WEST OF THE

QX0208''STATION, AT THE EAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF BROADWAY AND

QX0208''NORTHERN PACIFIC AVENUE, IN SECTION 1, T 1 S, R 4 E, AT THE BELGRADE

QX0208''STATE BANK BUILDING, SET VERTICALLY IN THE SOUTHWEST FACE OF THE

QX0208''BUILDING, 1 FOOT SOUTHEAST OF THE WEST CORNER OF THE BUILDING, AND 6

QX0208''INCHES ABOVE THE SIDEWALK.

QX0208

QX0208 STATION RECOVERY (1982)

QX0208

QX0208''RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1982

QX0208''THERE IS A NEW BUILDING AT THIS LOCATION AND THE MARK SHOULD BE

QX0208''CONSIDERED DESTROYED.

QX0208

QX0208 STATION RECOVERY (1984)

QX0208

QX0208''RECOVERY NOTE BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1984

QX0208''MARK NOT FOUND.

 

what I found at N 45° 46.570 W 111° 10.628

The exterior brick has been sand blasted and the interior renovated but the old Belgrade State Bank Building still stands (as identified by the Belgrade C of C office manager from their building directly across the street). It is on the corner of Broadway and Main (not Northern Pacific Ave) which is about the "block north and block west from former location of the train station.

 

1.3 feet east of the corner of the concrete foundation and 0.50' above the sidewalk, the threaded end of a 1/4 bolt protrudes 0.15' and is bent down.

 

Can this be the "real" MARK, or should it be the square head of a larger bolt?

 

Thanks, ML

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I've found lots of bolts, but they have all been either copper or iron, and never threaded, In pre-disk days they were usually set in rock and leaded (soldered) to keep them there. typically they would have a rounded head, and the bolt's would always be round in cross section. I've not seen one in brick. 1/4 inch is also very small. they are usually 1/2 or 3/4 inch.

 

As for the guy across the street, was he there 50 years ago? Just because it's still the bank doesn't mean it's the same building. And remember the bolt was set prior to 1958, possibly well prior, so the old building could have been a turn-of-the century structure. Try to find something in the local library or historical society.

 

But the kicker is that there is indeed a Northern Pacific Avenue crossing Broadway a block southwest of Main Street which currently has a break southeast of Broadway, but which may have gone through originally where there is a siding now and a huge warehouse. See this: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...&iwloc=addr Switch to Satellite and zoom in and you'll see whats in the break of Northern Pacific Avenue. The original station may have been down on that siding - roughly near the middle of the south side of that huge building where the connection to those silos (gas tanks?) is located - so as to put the bank northwest of it. In fact that siding may originally have been the main line.

 

I would say 1) the scaled coordinates are off (not unusual), and 2) you got the wrong building. You would have a lot of explaining to do otherwise to justify a find. Spend some time in the library and see if you can get some early 20th century pictures or maps of the area.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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I've found lots of bolts, but they have all been either copper or iron, and never threaded, ---------------- You would have a lot of explaining to do otherwise to justify a find. Spend some time in the library and see if you can get some early 20th century pictures or maps of the area.

 

Thanks Papa-Bear,

 

I'll work on finding old maps. Any way to come up with these UNK monumented dates. I banked there 25 years ago. Existing bolt is set in a solid concrete foundation, not the brick. Train station was on the main street side of the tracks and the main business district was on the far (NE) side of Main Street. I am confidant that the 1958 description is accurate, except for the street name, and leads to this building; but I always have learned a lot from my mistakes.ML

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I'll work on finding old maps....

 

This may help: Ask at a public or university library about access to the Sanborn Fire Maps. These are detailed city maps produced from the late 1800's to the mid 1900's.

 

In many places, you can view the Sanborn maps on-line at the library, or from home. (In North Carolina, public libraries will provide an Internet log-on and password to individuals with library cards.) In addition to the customary index of streets, there is a section on Map 1 called "Specials". That's where you will find the buildings by name, along with the Map Sheet numbers.

 

I find these to be extremely useful. Where was the original Baptist Church? The Graded School? The Train Depot? It's all there....along with the location of the town's early water tank(s), including the height and size (in gallons).

 

-Paul-

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I can add one more piece and it won't help directly. I found a snippet of one of the USCG&S's Special Pubs on Google Book search and here is what it says:

 

1 block west of the Northern Pacific Railway depot; at the northeast corner of Davis Street and Northern Pacific Avenue, 94 meters north of the railway track, in the vertical surface of the foundation of the building occupied by the Belgrade State Bank, 0.5 meter east of the southwest corner, 0.5 meter above the sidewalk, a copper bolt lettered U.S.B.M.

 

This doesn't correspond to much in the current datasheet, and to me makes things even more muddied. There IS a Davis Street but it no longer intersects with Northern Pacific Avenue. NP Avenue is SOUTH of the tracks, and the mark is 94 feet NORTH. It is hard to believe that both NP Avenue and Davis Street have been MOVED in the last 100 years.

 

And I agree with Papa-Bear that your 1/4" bolt is not the mark. He has seen a lot of bolts in buildings (in NYC) and I have seen a few also. All have been much larger than 1/4"--like he said--mostly 1/2" or 3/4". Note that the 1898 description has the bolt actually STAMPED "U.S.G.S". This is not unheard of-- I have seen it a few times.

 

Like Paul said your best bet may be local research--finding what building the bank was in when the mark was set and recovered successfully will help tremendously and can even be done in the winter.

 

Matt

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Paul, I'll look for those Sanborn Maps. Thanks

Matt, I think that the 94 feet north of the rail will check out. Wonder why the 1958 team did not use that part of the description? The street/sidewalk may have been built up the missing 14 inches. Thanks

 

Too cold to ski, so I may as well research this.

 

Might have to edit my LOGIN, but thats OK.

 

Thanks, Thanks, ML

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I can handle the height above the ground, but the roads would intersect SOUTH of the tracks. That mystifies me and doesn't make sense.

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I can add one more piece and it won't help directly. I found a snippet of one of the USCG&S's Special Pubs on Google Book search and here is what it says:

 

1 block west of the Northern Pacific Railway depot; at the northeast corner of Davis Street and Northern Pacific Avenue, 94 meters north of the railway track, in the vertical surface of the foundation of the building occupied by the Belgrade State Bank, 0.5 meter east of the southwest corner, 0.5 meter above the sidewalk, a copper bolt lettered U.S.B.M.

 

This doesn't correspond to much in the current datasheet, and to me makes things even more muddied. There IS a Davis Street but it no longer intersects with Northern Pacific Avenue. NP Avenue is SOUTH of the tracks, and the mark is 94 feet NORTH. It is hard to believe that both NP Avenue and Davis Street have been MOVED in the last 100 years.

 

And I agree with Papa-Bear that your 1/4" bolt is not the mark. He has seen a lot of bolts in buildings (in NYC) and I have seen a few also. All have been much larger than 1/4"--like he said--mostly 1/2" or 3/4". Note that the 1898 description has the bolt actually STAMPED "U.S.G.S". This is not unheard of-- I have seen it a few times.

 

Like Paul said your best bet may be local research--finding what building the bank was in when the mark was set and recovered successfully will help tremendously and can even be done in the winter.

 

Matt

Hi again

 

As Matt said. it's not unheard of to have stamping on a bolt. Here is one on the Custom's House in lower Manhattan (I think Matt and I checked this out together a few years back):

 

a860c7c3-40fe-4b1b-8a65-d32e74e7dc64.jpg

 

Although most have just a cross or a punch hole. The one pictured was set by New York City around 1909 and it's 3/4 inch. It is flush with the granite (no head).

 

Having an early description from the CGS Special publication makes a lot of difference. The earlier the description, the better since I believe errors tend to accumulate more as time goes by.

 

Couple of things: I've seen documentation of bolts with USBM chiseled around the bolt, sort of like this

U		S

 x

B		M

where the "x' is the bolt. Although it would be hard to get those 4 letters onto a single bolt, it would not be impossible as my picture shows.

 

The one thing in common in the descriptions is Northern Pacific Ave, and the Bank. I think only an old map will solve that. The compass directions are certainly confusing based on the street layout today. Maybe they were reversed (depot north of bank vs. bank north of depot) but that would be unlikely since the bank would be expected to be on the "main" street. Maybe Main Street used to be NP Ave when it was just a RR town, and they switched it as the town got more prosperous.

 

But if you believe the older description, I think the mark is gone, no matter what happened to the street names or the bank.

 

One last thing to kayakbird: It's 94 meters, not 94 feet. Big difference.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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One last thing to kayakbird: It's 94 meters, not 94 feet. Big difference.

Papa-Bear-NYC,

 

OK, 94 meters. Should have picked up on that from being somewhat familiar with the ground.

 

Maybe in the original description they were trying to say that the train station was at Davis X Northern Pacific. Can't wait to get into the Sanborn maps. -4F ML

Edited by kayakbird

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Here's a shot of a bolt with a cross and the letters USBM stamped on it.

 

FR0072

 

John

Good one John. About how big is that? About an inch?

 

It is about 3/4 inch. The one picture in our log shows it with our GPSr for size reference. The GPSr's screen is 1 3/4" X 2 1/8".

 

John

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I did a quick digital search of some of the old USC&GS Special Publications and found several mentions of using bolts as marks.

 

From USC&GS Special Pub. No. 247, “Manual of Geodetic Triangulation”, 1959, pp 93-94: http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...o247rev1959.pdf

 

10. Setting of disks.

(d) In rock ledges below surface.-When the ledge is only slightly below the surface, a disk set in the usual manner in the ledge will be sufficient, provided two surface reference marks are established. Where the ledge is so far below the surface that a surface mark is required, a disk or copper bolt should be set in the ledge, the ledge carefully brushed or washed off for a space at least 18 inches in diameter, and a concrete surface monument placed above the underground mark. A disk should be set in the surface monument directly over the underground disk or bolt. If the rock ledge in which the underground mark is set is very smooth, it should be furrowed with a chisel to afford better anchorage for the concrete.

 

From p 121:

Note 7.-A block of concrete about 3 feet below the ground containing at the center of its upper surface (a) a standard triangulation-station disk, (<_< a copper bolt projecting slightly above the concrete, © an iron nail with the point projecting above the concrete, (d) a glass bottle with the neck projecting a little above the concrete, (e) an earthenware jug with the mouth projecting a little above the concrete.

 

Note 8.-In bedrock, (a) a standard triangulation-station disk cemented in a drill hole, (:ph34r: a standard triangulation-station disk set in concrete in a depression, © a copper bolt set in cement in a drill hole or depression, (d) an iron spike set point up in cement in a drill hole or depression.

 

Note 9.-In a boulder about 3 feet below the ground (a) a standard triangulation station

disk cemented in a drill hole, (:huh: a standard triangulation-station disk set in concrete

in a depression, © a copper bolt set with cement in a drill hole or depression.

 

The following are three actual descriptions containing mention of “bolt”.

 

From USC&GS Special Pub. No. 11, “The Texas-California Arc of Primary Triangulation”, p 102 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...U35no111912.pdf

 

Cyyamaca (San Diego County, Cal., A. T. M., 1898; 1910).-About 10 feet south of the highest point of the backbone of the large ledge that forms the highest part of the southern and highest peak of Cuyamaca Mountain, about 60 miles northeast of San Diego and about 4 miles from Cuyamaca Lake. A light wagon can be driven to within one-third of a mile of the station. The station was originally marked by a copper bolt cemented in a 1 by 4 inch drill hole, but the copper bolt has since been removed and the center of the drill hole is now the station. The reference marks, each consisting of a cross cut in the rock with a copper bolt set at the intersection, are at the following distances and directions from the station: 2.340 meters, north; 2.145 meters, northeast; and 1.900 meters, south. The rock containing the north reference mark has been broken, but the original position of the mark may be obtained approximately by placing the broken segments together. In 1910 a cross was cut in the face of a large rock almost directly under this old mark, the center of this new mark being 2.448 meters from the station.

 

From p 110:

Yuma azimuth station (Yuma County, Ariz., J. S. H., 1911).-This station was established by the United States and Mexico Boundary Commission, and it is identical with the United States Geological Survey station. It is on the southern peak of a hill called Sierra Prieta, just south of Yuma. The station is marked by a standard disk station mark, described on page 83, cemented in the top of a brick pier which is built on solid rock and is I foot high. The reference mark, a United States Geological Survey bronze bench-mark tablet on the top of an iron post, is 1.10 meters from the station in azimuth 150˚ 03’. Three iron bolts are at the following distances from the station: 1.50 meters north, 1.83 meters east, and 1.70 meters southwest.

 

From p 112:

Needles west base (San Bernardino County, Cal., W. B. F., 1893; 1909).--On the mesa

1 ½ miles northwest of Needles and one-half mile north of the railroad track, at the corner of Q and Vine Streets, in a real estate subdivision of Needles. The station is marked as follows: A bottle is buried with mouth up, 2 ½ feet below the ground, and 6 inches above this bottle are three others with their mouths toward the center. The surface mark is a copper bolt in the top of a sandstone monument 12 by 12 by 36 inches in size projecting 1 foot above the surface.

 

From Special Pub. No. 145, “Manual of Second and Third Order Triangulation and Traverse”, 1935, p 38:

 

Where a station of third-order or higher accuracy, originally established by another organization, is definitely moved, but is found to be inadequately marked, it should he remarked in a permanent manner, and the character of the new mark described in the recovery note. If the station was originally marked by a tablet, the tablet should be reset in the new mark. If the station was not marked by a tablet, then a tablet such as is now used by the organization which established the station should be secured by the field party from its own headquarters and used as the new station mark. If there is not time to secure the tablet, a copper bolt may be stamped with the initials of the organization which first established the mark, and this bolt should be used as the station mark. If the original station can not be exactly recovered or if, for any reason, it is not desirable to reoccupy it, a new station may be established near by and marked, and the old station should be connected with the new one and used as a reference mark for it. In general, no survey monument established by one organization of the Government should be changed or replaced by another organization unless there is an agreement between the two organizations regarding such replacement.

 

However, a station established by another organization should never be re-marked unless it had a subsurface mark and this was definitely recovered or unless the tablet was established in rock and its original location can be definitely and accurately determined. The recovery note should describe the present condition of the surface, subsurface, and reference marks in sufficient detail to make the record clear as to the certainty of recovery of the station.

 

Triangulation parties of this bureau (USC&GS) will follow the procedure outlined in the above report.

 

GeorgeL

NGS

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Although MG0512 is marked destroyed, I found what appears to be the bolt in the correct bridge railing and it had paint marks below it suggesting that it had been used. The "Destroyed" classification could be an error as part of the mixup with AA3903 (NGS) AA3903 (GC)

94f945df-5876-44fb-9f42-98c8bef17d82.jpg

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Paul, Thanks a lot for the Sanborn Fire Maps tip. I was able to find a free link for the Montana files. See below

 

Others, Thanks for the great photo's. Now I know what most "real" ones look like.

 

Define "BOLT"

New "FORUM" topic 1915 19 DEC 08

info added 22 Dec 08:

 

from the Dec,1907, Sheet 2 Sanborn Map

 

The present Main Street was then called "Northern Pacific Avenue". No streets are shown SW of the tracks. The Northern Pacific RR Depot is shown on the NE side of the tracks, just easterly of Kennedy St. Going NE along Kennedy or Broadway there is an alley at mid-block, then Central and Park Avenues; which correlated to todays streets.

 

Broadway is one block NW of Kennedy, with a bank shown on the NE corner of Northern Pacific and Broadway.

 

Another map in the files dated Aug. 1912-Sept. 1941, Sheet 4 still has a bank on the NE corner of Broadway, But that street is now "Northern Pacific Av. N." The "N." appears to be a different font. Sheet 1 shows the the development along Kennedy and Broadway SW of the NPRR mainline. This map section truncates on the north at "Northern Pacific Av. S". Sidings and the mainline of the Chicago Milwaukee & Puget Sound RR - Gallatin Valley Branch and one siding of the NPRR are shown in Gallatin Valley Milling Co's flour mill area, but the NPRR mainline is off the drawing to the north.

 

Hopefully research tomorrow at the Gallatin Historical Museum will determine when Northern Pacific Av. N. had a name change to Main street.

 

I'm holding to my conclusion that I have the correct building. After the "GOOD" recovery in 1958, I do not think that the building would have been razed and then rebuilt with rough quarried sandstone window sills.

 

I know, get a camera! (I am looking at newspaper ads). ML

Edited by kayakbird

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(Duplicate removed. See below.)

Edited by PFF

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Paul sez:

 

Good job with the Sanborn maps. (Always remember to check the 'North' arrow--which can change when you move to an insert.) I agree with your conclusions. In fact, prior to reading your last post, I had composed the following. I'll send it along, even though it is somewhat redundant. And the last paragraph is from the heart!

 

 

-----Proposed Forum Post-----

 

Back to QX0208.......and I'm simply thinking out loud, here........

 

1. Look north and west. The data sheet says: "...About 1 block north and thence 1 block west of the station....." If this portion of the description stood alone, would it indicate a location near West Main Street and N. Weaver?

 

2. Ask the bank. On the bank's website, it says: "The Belgrade office opened on June 6, 1906 with assets totaling $10,000. This was the first location of our now 6 locations covering Washington and St. Francois Counties." If they remember the exact date and how much money they had, I'll wager a bet that they also remember where the bank was located--both in 1906, and at any subsequent locations between 1906 and today. [The bolt probably was in a building constructed between 1920 to 1935.) Moreover, being the flagship branch, I'm confident that they have photographs of the buildings!

 

3. Follow the money. In 1906, the present-day location of the intersection of North Pacific Avenue at Broadway would have been "off the beaten path". Shopkeepers would not have wanted to walk several blocks to deposit the day's receipts. The bank would have been near the center of commerce. [see Item 1.]

 

New subject: While I might question the sanity of anyone who goes on a Bird Count in sub-zero temperatures, I'd never question the loyalty of a Montana resident to our Country, and I admire the pride and respect your state shows to our Flag--as evidenced by this building near Main & Broadway.

 

-Paul-

 

P.S. Cameras are on Aisle Three. [Chuckle] All of us are looking forward to seeing pictures of these interesting benchmark locations that you're dealing with!

Edited by PFF

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Paul,

 

Thanks for the help & encouragement. I had looked at the flag on

 

grain elevator picture. Neat! Its map pin is a bit off. It should be a few

 

blocks SE at 45 46 25.56 111 10 19.84 where Main Street has to jog around it.

 

Note the shadow of the tall white building there.

 

From the top of that grain elevator I do not believe that you can see the Belgrade

 

State Bank that opened with $10,000 in 1906. Google Earth has its tack pin © at

 

37 47 42.66 90 52 36 33. Not sure if that map pin is exactly right either. In

 

this game it is sure easy to let sneaky little details and clues slip right past! ML

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A couple of things I didn't put in my earlier post.

 

The document I looked up on Google Books was supposedly published in 1898, and was only a snippet view, so I had to use the search function to view the entire Belgrade bolt data. You can get to the book by searching "belgrade bank bolt" in Google Books search, and then under "Search in this book" enter "Belgrade". The bottom snippet shows the text of the description of the bolt. It references "Note 4" and a search of that turns up the END of the description of what kind of mark it is, and nothing I have done so far (such as search for "note 3" and hope that note 4 would appear below it) has allowed me to see all the note 4 text--it cuts off the top, and most important line. I suspect Papa-Bear may be right in saying it is a bolt with a cross on it and the letters U S B M chiseled around it (see his post above). A full view book I located is Hypsometry: vertical leveling in the United States 1903-1907. It doesn't have Belgrade in it but does have notes on benchmark types. They are not the same as in the Belgrade description but reading through them you can get some idea of how a bolt mark might have been set. I suspect Note 10 might be what was set on the bank building.

 

While at first it might seem this book predates the Belgrade Bank mentioned in the 1958 recovery, other things in the book mention dates as late as 1907 and 1910, so that may not be the case. I haven't been able to search for anything on the title page to get a good look at the real publication date. Google Books are notoriously poorly described, with the title, publisher, and publication date often being incorrect. So I take the 1898 date with a grain of salt.

 

Also, I think Paul has the wrong Belgrade and you seem to have noticed that (with your sneaky reference to not being able to see it from the grain elevator--NOW I get it!). That bank is in Missouri. I couldn't find any solid references to a Belgrade State Bank, or even one at that location by another name (I admit it wasn't an exhaustive search though).

 

My opinion of "one block north and one block west" of the old train station (see QX0207 for its location) is north to Main St, then west to Broadway, which is just where you have been looking, and just where the QX0208 coords place the mark. In fact, on Google Earth, they appear to be right on the mark--at the west corner of the building that lies in an open area with trees.

 

Wait until it gets to be a balmy 20 or so and head back to the bank. If they sandblasted it they may have removed the USBM notation, but it could still be there. I have a flashlight in my pack that I use to shine at an angle when looking for notations like this. When done in low light it is sometimes possible to highlight the letters enough to make them out. But the bolt, or some evidence of it, should be pretty noticeable. That should be your key.

 

Matt

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A couple of things I didn't put in my earlier post.

 

The document I looked up on Google Books was supposedly published in 1898, and was only a snippet view, so I had to use the search function to view the entire Belgrade bolt data. You can get to the book by searching "belgrade bank bolt" in Google Books search, and then under "Search in this book" enter "Belgrade". The bottom snippet shows the text of the description of the bolt. It references "Note 4" and a search of that turns up the END of the description of what kind of mark it is, and nothing I have done so far (such as search for "note 3" and hope that note 4 would appear below it) has allowed me to see all the note 4 text--it cuts off the top, and most important line. I suspect Papa-Bear may be right in saying it is a bolt with a cross on it and the letters U S B M chiseled around it (see his post above). A full view book I located is Hypsometry: vertical leveling in the United States 1903-1907. It doesn't have Belgrade in it but does have notes on benchmark types. They are not the same as in the Belgrade description but reading through them you can get some idea of how a bolt mark might have been set. I suspect Note 10 might be what was set on the bank building

....

Found it.

 

I searched the Google page for "Special Publication" and found this was No. 18. I then went to the NOAA site and downloaded S.P. No. 18, published in 1914 and titled Fourth General Adjustment of the Precise Level Net of the United States and the Resulting Standard Elevations.

 

Get it here: Special Publication No. 18

 

Here's the Title Page

 

c53e4c3a-4f81-4352-9c1d-5f05fb6e035c.jpg

click for full size image

 

Here's the complete text for the mark with the adjoining text:

 

54216e71-d48f-4069-8005-e3bbd2bc5fef.jpg

 

And here's Note 4:

 

3288100a-ef33-4db8-8a1c-28dd0415d43c.jpg

 

The text is pretty clear on what it was - a bolt set flush and stamped USBM. Note 4 says there would be a horizontal line or a cross on it. This would pretty much match the picture that John (of the 2oldfarts), posted above. Elsewhere in the publication it says the mark was part of a level line surveyed in 1907 from Butte to Huntley Montana following the Northern Pacific Railroad. The measured elevation values were adjusted in the national adjustment done in 1912.

 

Note: the measurements given in 1958 on the building are in feet. These are in meters. It's either a typo on one or the other, or a big discrepancy.

 

Next to find out: If the building was there in 1914 and in 1958, was it replaced between 1958 and 1982? If not, what happened to the bolt? The 1/4 inch stem sticking out seems unlikely since all such bolts I'm aware of were the same size throughout. and this was mounted "flush", i.e. no head.

 

Note added: I found the final adjusted value for this mark given on page 147 of the publication. It was 1357.443 meters, which is close to the adjusted values on the data sheet. Since the original adjustment was done in 1912, I don't know if this is a coincidence or not. The data sheet gives 1357.430 for the NAVD 29 value and 1358.561 for the NAVD 88 value. If we knew how the datums differed from one another we could confirm that the 1958 mark was the same as the one in S.P. 18. The value in the publication (1912) is just .013 m (about 1/2 inch) higher than the NAVD 29 value. DaveD? any information on this?

 

The elevation from page 147 of the publication:

 

4d03edeb-1dec-4716-a2d9-74a37e5254d8.jpg

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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Matt, Papa-Bear, Paul & all,

 

How do you know where to look for all that good "old" stuff? I think that I just about got it figured out.

 

In chronological order:

 

1902 Bank built at the NE corner of Broadway and Northern Pacific Ave

1907 Monumented with a bolt (QX0208 O4). Same crew monumented QX0204 N4 and QX0214 P4 (logged 12 Dec 2008).

1910 Photo from a high building two or three hundred meters SW clearly show the brick bank building that still stands today.

1920 Photo from the SW corner of Broadway and NP Ave shows a quarried sandstone foundation about 0.35 M high. Top of sandstone is 12 brick courses below the windowsill.

1933 Belgrade city map shows an unnamed street platted SW of the NPRR mainline. An updated 1914 Sanborn Fire Map shows this unnamed street as Northern Pacific Av. S.

1948 News paper article with a photo looking NW along what is referred to as "Main Street" shows the bank building.

1958 NGS "GOOD" recovery "----AT THE EAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF BROADWAY AND NORTHERN PACIFIC AVENUE---". DATASHEET should have been corrected to read "Main Street".

1970's Building renovated and bank name changed to Montana Bank of Belgrade.

1980 City map shows Main Street with Northern Pacific Avenue SW of the tracks.

1981 Bank now the Valley Bank of Belgrade.

1982 NGS Recovery "THERE IS A NEW BUILDING AT THIS LOCATION AND THE MARK SHOULD BE CONSIDERED DESTROYED." This crew had lots of things working against them.

1984 NGS Recovery "MARK NOT FOUND."

2008 The building is still there (photo's to be posted soon, MAYBE). The concrete that I took to be the original foundation is likely a three or four inch thick cap/buttress; maybe placed during the 70's renovation. I believe that the visible"BOLT " was the renovators attempt to perpetuate the mark; which I think is still under there - NOT DESTROYED.

 

I will continue to attempt to verify the date of the formal street name change and when and how much concrete was added to the foundation. In reference to another topic in this forum: Would a good metal detector find it? ML

Edited by kayakbird

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Hi, ML:

 

Awesome! Excellent research.

 

I can see we need to add a new category in the Benchmark Hall of Fame. So far, we have "longest distance hiked to make a single recovery", "most repeat visits to the same spot", and "most bones broken when falling off a referenced structure". [To qualify for that last one, you must fall from an object named in the NGS data sheet.]

 

I believe there is room on the wall for another plaque, which we could call, "most hours spent researching a single benchmark". I know Papa Bear NYC is at, or close to the top on the East Coast (along with his coveted award for "most miles logged on public transportation during benchmark hunting".) But you're certainly a contender west of the Mississippi.

 

Considering the use of a metal detector: I've been able to pick up targets with a benchmark's distinctive "signature" through stucco, carpet, etc. (Logged as "Not Found but may still exist".) However, if the visible bolt is at the indicated spot in the foundation, its presence may interfere with attempts to "see" the original object.

 

-Paul-

 

"The REAL reason I have an expensive metal detector is so I can tell if a signal is a benchmark, or just my steel-toe boots."

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...

2008 The building is still there (photo's to be posted soon, MAYBE). The concrete that I took to be the original foundation is likely a three or four inch thick cap/buttress; maybe placed during the 70's renovation. I believe that the visible"BOLT " was the renovators attempt to perpetuate the mark; which I think is still under there - NOT DESTROYED.

 

I will continue to attempt to verify the date of the formal street name change and when and how much concrete was added to the foundation. In reference to another topic in this forum: Would a good metal detector find it? ML

Just for the fun of it, when you go back, measure .5 meters east from the southwest corner and .5 meters above the sidewalk (.5 meters = 1.64 feet = 19.7 inches) and see if there's anything there. That's a good foot from the 1958 description, and hey! you never know.

 

Since the building (and the streets) are canted clockwise, I assume "east of southwest corner" (1907) is the same as "southeast of the west corner" (1958), so we're talking about the corner along Maine Street mid-block between N. Broadway and N. Weaver.

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Since the building (and the streets) are canted clockwise, I assume "east of southwest corner" (1907) is the same as "southeast of the west corner" (1958), so we're talking about the corner along Maine Street mid-block between N. Broadway and N. Weaver.

 

Papa-Bear-NYC,

 

Still of the conclusion that is is NOT FOUND, but not DESTROYRD either. I came up with a couple more tidbits of information today and hope to get a final after action report put together tomorrow (birding, benchmarking & skiing permitting).

 

To clarify one point: if you are standing in the intersection of Main and Broadway with your back to the former Northern Pacific mainline tracks and looking down Broadway, facing to the Northeast, the Belgrade State Bank Building is the first building along Broadway on your right, with its main entrance on Main St (aka Pacific St on the 1969 city map!!). The Sanborn fire maps show a bank building there in 1907, 1912 and 1941/1946.

 

Bit of sun today, no snow and 25F - up from 19 at sunset. Thanks ML

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...

To clarify one point: if you are standing in the intersection of Main and Broadway with your back to the former Northern Pacific mainline tracks and looking down Broadway, facing to the Northeast, the Belgrade State Bank Building is the first building along Broadway on your right, with its main entrance on Main St (aka Pacific St on the 1969 city map!!). The Sanborn fire maps show a bank building there in 1907, 1912 and 1941/1946.

 

Bit of sun today, no snow and 25F - up from 19 at sunset. Thanks ML

Thanks for the clarification. I has thought it was across the street on the other (NW) side of N. Broadway (I was looking at Google Maps aerial views). I should have known better since the original description said the NE corner of Davis and Northern Pacific. So that puts the corner with the mark right a the intersection.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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This might be an example of a situation where one more investigative tool could help. That is determining the actual elevation of the candidate mark. I know that is beyond the capability of most on here, but it is still one critical element of information that can be added after all the history and on the ground investigations.

 

As an aside relating to an earlier post. The difference between the older '29 datum and the current datum can be computed with an NGS program called VERTCON. That may not be exact since it is an interpolated model. The best solution is usually to compare the two published elevations on a mark in the area.

 

- jlw

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The difference between the older '29 datum and the current datum can be computed with an NGS program called VERTCON.

 

 

Hi, JLW:

 

Glad you brought up this subject. I frequently need to find things such as property corners, where the State Plane Coordinates are known. I've not had much luck converting SPC to latitude and longitude. I always seem to be about 80 feet off.

 

Last Tuesday, I was in such a situation. I finally realized that since I was inputing SPC in feet, I was getting NAD27 coordinates as output. I set the GPS to that Datum and I pulled the error down to 30 to 45 feet. Is there any thing else I can do to improve the accuracy?

 

All my source documents are several years old, and SPC in feet is the only thing I have to work with. I'm a little skeptical about how close I can get, since the entire state of North Carolina uses one factor (3200), even though the state stretches over 400 miles, east to west. I notice other states have different numbers for different areas. I assume that increases the accuracy.

 

By the way, when I discuss this with NCGS, Gary Thompson and his staff steadfastly maintain that it's the Lat/Long that's off, and the SPC is the more accurate indicator. Unfortunately, SPC is not an option on my Garmin GPS. [Grin.]

 

-Paul-

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....

As an aside relating to an earlier post. The difference between the older '29 datum and the current datum can be computed with an NGS program called VERTCON. That may not be exact since it is an interpolated model. The best solution is usually to compare the two published elevations on a mark in the area.

 

- jlw

Actually I was not concerned about the difference between NAVD 29 and NAVD 88 (the current datum) since that's given on the data sheet.

 

Rather I wondered whether the difference between the 1912 adjustment (1357.443 meters - given in the old publication) and the NAVD 29 value (1357.430 meters, given on the data sheet under "SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL") made sense.

 

I don't know what the pre-1929 vertical datum was called. I think it was just the NAD (North American Datum) and was established around 1900. It would seem by these numbers that there was very little change involved in going to the new datum in 1929, so I just wondered if this was reasonable.

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Paul, I've used CORPSCON which you can find as a free download from the US Army Corps of Engineers. It lets you specify the input and output as any combination of US Survey Feet, International Feet, or meters, and geographic (Lat-Lon), State Plane, or UTM in either NAD27, NAD83(86) or the HPGN/HARN version of NAD83.

 

I wonder if your problem could be US Survey Feet vs. International Feet. The difference of 2 parts per million is negligible for many purposes but accumulated across a the width of a state it is very significant.

Edit: maybe I was off a decimal place there. I just got home from 4 hours of foggy roads and am not thinking clearly.

 

Note that in some cases the 0-0 origin for SPC is specified differently for different units of measure or datum. A full specification to go with a pair of numbers in SPC must also have the zone, datum, and units, as for instance NC zone (3200), NAD27, US SUrvey feet. This would mean that if you did the SPC to lat-lon with the wrong datum, you couldn't correctly compensate by changing the GPS unit's datum. I have not experimented with NC to see how that would work there.

 

CORPSCON also shows only one zone (3200) for North Carolina. That must be ok for the size of state and the projection they chose. I believe the specification was that the projection of any zone in SPC would maintain relative accuracy of 1:20,000 versus the real world.

Edited by Bill93

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Matt, Papa-Bear, Paul & all,

 

How do you know where to look for all that good "old" stuff? I think that I just about got it figured out.

 

In chronological order:

 

1902 Bank built at the NE corner of Broadway and Northern Pacific Ave

1907 Monumented with a bolt (QX0208 O4). Same crew monumented QX0204 N4 and QX0214 P4 (logged 12 Dec 2008).

1910 Photo from a high building two or three hundred meters SW clearly show the brick bank building that still stands today.

1920 Photo from the SW corner of Broadway and NP Ave shows a quarried sandstone foundation about 0.35 M high. Top of sandstone is 12 brick courses below the windowsill.

1933 Belgrade city map shows an unnamed street platted SW of the NPRR mainline. An updated 1914 Sanborn Fire Map shows this unnamed street as Northern Pacific Av. S.

1948 News paper article with a photo looking NW along what is referred to as "Main Street" shows the bank building.1958 NGS "GOOD" recovery "----AT THE EAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF BROADWAY AND NORTHERN PACIFIC AVENUE---". DATASHEET should have been corrected to read "Main Street".

1970's Building renovated and bank name changed to Montana Bank of Belgrade.

1980 City map shows Main Street with Northern Pacific Avenue SW of the tracks.

1981 Bank now the Valley Bank of Belgrade.

1982 NGS Recovery "THERE IS A NEW BUILDING AT THIS LOCATION AND THE MARK SHOULD BE CONSIDERED DESTROYED." This crew had lots of things working against them.

1984 NGS Recovery "MARK NOT FOUND."

2008 The building is still there (photo's to be posted soon, MAYBE). The concrete that I took to be the original foundation is likely a three or four inch thick cap/buttress; maybe placed during the 70's renovation. I believe that the visible"BOLT " was the renovators attempt to perpetuate the mark; which I think is still under there - NOT DESTROYED.

 

I will continue to attempt to verify the date of the formal street name change and when and how much concrete was added to the foundation. In reference to another topic in this forum: Would a good metal detector find it? ML

 

Final Report

QX0208 O4 1907 bolt

put this one to bed

 

I have to back-paddle a bit and apologize to the 1958 recovery crew for their street name

confusion in the description of QX0208. Likely their source maps showed NP Avenue.

 

A gentleman at the barbershop said that the street in question has been Main Street for as

many of his 76 years as he can remember.

 

A visit to the Belgrade City Hall showed Pacific Avenue - not Northern Pacific Ave - on a 1969 map.

 

Measurements taken:

 

bottom of sandstone window sill down to top of concrete cap 1.9 ft.

bottom of sandstone window sill down to sidewalk 3.6 ft'

concrete cap/buttress at front door steps 1.65ft high, 0.6ft wide.

slightly more that three brick courses are covered by this cap.

exposed sandstone block behind cap at front door 0.9 wide by 0.7 high.

estimated width of stone foundation covered by concrete cap 0.2 to 0.3 ft.

estimated higher depth of newer concrete sidewalk since the 1920s photos showed two full sandstone block foundation courses 1.0 - 1.2 feet.

Note: 1907 Precise Level run (Special Publication #18) states that the mark was placed in the foundation.

 

Conclusions: Based on the deeper sidewalk and uncertainty if all measurements were taken from the corner in meters or feet, I have no idea if the existing 1/4 in threaded bolt is anywhere near the mark.

 

I do believe that this is the one and only Belgrade State Bank building and that the mark is there in the sandstone block foundation under the concrete cap. It may not be found but is is not "DESTROYED".

 

Photos coming soon - maybe!!

 

Any reason I should not file a "NOT FOUND" report to NGS? ML

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The description states that the bolt is set vertically 1 foot from the west corner of the building.

 

If that is the original building then the odds of the bolt still being there are good. I would suggest using a handheld compass to verify which corner and which direction to measure. The bolt was probably set flush with the wall it is in with only the stamping showing.

 

John

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PapaBear, Thanks for the note you posted to QX0208 pertaining to Special Pub #18. Quite a number of the Butte to Huntley run do have PID's, but at least one ( R 4 0.2 mi NW of Bozeman RR Depot) does not. I believe the 1907 bridge over Bozeman Creek is still there. I'll check it out when the snow settles a bit. I think I feel a new thread coming on. Sp. Pub.#18 must have mystery marks all over the nation!

 

I just posted some poor quality photos to the QX0208 log. I'll try to figure out all my new Nikon D40 editing features before I post photos to my five other successfully recovered, previously "NOT FOUND", in this immediate area. And maybe a couple more highly suspect ones when green grass arrives. ML

Edited by kayakbird

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Just looked at your photos and if that is the correct corner then whomever did the concrete work may have used the smaller bolt to indicate where the original mark is located. Similar to a surface mark being placed directly over an underground mark.

 

Perhaps there was a surveyor on site at the time the concrete work was done and he assisted in placing the smaller bolt as a reference to the real mark.

 

John

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Just recently I have put together some information on historical vertical adjustments done by USC&GS/NGS (it will eventually be on the NGS web site). It has links to most of the references, but the 1907 adjustment report has not yet been scanned.

 

LEVELING HISTORY AND LEVELING ADJUSTMENTS

OF THE

U.S. COAST & GEODETIC SURVEY

AND THE

NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY, NOAA

 

VERTICAL DATUMS

 

- 1900, 5 TIDE GAUGES, 21,000 KM LEVELING

- 1903, 8 TIDE GAUGES, 31,800 KM

- 1907, 9 TIDE GAUGES, 38,400 KM (SEATTLE ADDED)

- 1912, 9 TIDE GAUGES, 46,500 KM (SAN DIEGO ADDED)

- 1929, 26 TIDE GAUGES, 106,700 KM

- 1988, 1 TIDE GAUGE, 625,000 KM

 

REPORTS

 

1900 - C&GS Report of the Superintendent 1898-1899, Appendix 8, pgs 347-886, "Precise Leveling in the United States" – http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs/003_pdf/CSC-0102.PDF

 

1903 - C&GS Report of the Superintendent 1902-1903, Appendix 3, pgs 189-809, "Precise Leveling in the United States, /1900-1903, with a Readjustment of the Level Net and Resulting Elevations" - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs/004_pdf/CSC-0107.PDF

 

1907 - C&GS published in 1909, "Precise leveling in the United States 1903-1907, With A Readjustment of the Level Net and Resulting Elevations" (to be scanned)

 

1912 - C&GS Special Publication 18, "Fourth General Adjustment of the Precise level Net in the United States and the Resulting Standard Elevations" - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...U35no181914.pdf

 

1929 – No complete, final report was prepared. For brief discussions of the National Geodetic Vertical Datum of 1929 see the following publications listed below:

- 1988 Special Report, “Results of the General Adjustment of the North American Vertical Datum of 1988”,

- “History of Geodetic Leveling in the United States”,

- “Geodetic Operations in the U.S., January 1, 1927, to December 31, 1929”,

- “First-Order Leveling in New Jersey”,

- “Control Leveling”,

- USC&GS 1930 Annual Report. (Add links to entries below.)

 

1988 - Special Report, “Results of the General Adjustment of the North American Vertical Datum of 1988”, David B. Zilkoski, John H. Richards, and Gary M. Young

American Congress on Surveying and Mapping, Surveying and Land Information Systems, Vol. 52, No. 3, 1992, pp.133-149 - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/NAVD88/navd88report.htm

 

NGS Frequently Asked Questions - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/faq.shtml

(Includes comments about NGVD 29 and NAVD 88.)

 

HISTORIES:

 

“History of Geodetic Leveling in the United States”, Ralph Moore Berry, NGS, NOS, NOAA, Journal of the American Congress on Surveying and Mapping, June 1976, Vol. XXXVI, No. 2, pp. 137 – 153 – (scanned, but not on-line)

 

“Level Headed: A Brief History of Leveling at the National Geodetic Survey”, Cindy Craig, NGS, 2007 - http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/founda...come.html#intro

 

OTHER LEVELING RELATED PUBLICATIONS:

 

“Use of Mean Sea Level as the Datum for Elevations”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 41, 1917 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...U35no411917.pdf

 

“Geodetic Level and Rod”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 129, 1927 (Revised 1935) - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no1291935.pdf

 

“Descriptions of Bench Marks in the U.S.”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 131, 1927 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...275U35no131.pdf

 

“Geodetic Operations in the U.S., January 1, 1927, to December 31, 1929”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 166, 1929 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no1661930.pdf , see especially pp 21 – 23, “Further Study of the Variation of Mean Sea Level From a Level Surface”.

 

USC&GS Annual Report 1930, Division of Geodesy, p 33. - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs/005_pdf/CSC-0134.PDF . This report contains the one sentence, “The adjustment of the combined level nets of Canada and of the United States, involving nearly 70,000 miles of leveling.”

 

“First-Order Leveling in New Jersey”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 172, 1931 (Contains brief comments on the 1929 Adjustment) - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no1721931.pdf

 

“Manual of First-Order Leveling”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 140, 1935 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no1401935.pdf

 

“Control Leveling”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 226, 1941 (Revised 1961) - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...o226rev1961.pdf , see especially, pp 9 – 10, “1929 Special and General Adjustments”.

 

“Manual of Geodetic Leveling”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 239, 1948 – http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no2391948.pdf

 

“Manual of Leveling Computations and Adjustments”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 240, 1948 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no2401948.pdf

 

“Geodetic Leveling Instruments”, USC&GS Special Publication No. 334, 1955 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...35no3341955.pdf

 

“Control Leveling”, Charles T. Whalen, NOAA Technical Report NOS 73 NGS 8 (supersedes C&GS Special Publication 226), 1978 - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/TRNOS73NGS8.pdf

 

“Geodetic Bench Marks”, Lt, Richard P. Floyd, NOAA Manual NOS NGS 1,

1978 - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/GeodeticBMs/

 

“Geodetic Leveling”, Lt. M. Christine Schomaker and Ralph Moore Berry, NOAA Manual NOS NGS 3, 1981 - http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/cgs_specpu...1U56no31981.pdf

 

“Bench Mark Reset Procedures”, Curtis L. Smith, NGS, 2007 - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/heightmod/Leveling...ark_9_13_07.pdf

 

“Vertically Challenged: The Progression of Vertical Datums”, Aria Remondi, NGS, 2007 - http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/magazi...welcome.html#na

 

“Height Modernization – Leveling the Nation”, Aria Remondi and George Leigh, NGS, 2007 - http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/transf...od/welcome.html

 

“Leveling: An Overview”, Cindy Craig, NGS, 2007 - http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/founda...ling/side1.html

 

“NGS Geodetic Leveling” web page, NGS, current - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/heightmod/Leveling...ling_index.html

 

“Scope of Work, Geodetic Leveling Surveys”, NGS, current - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/ContractingOpportu.../PR_SOW_v9C.pdf

 

“Height Modernization” web page, NGS, current - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/heightmod/

 

--------------------

Here us the link to the NGS software page with State Plane conversions and VERTCON: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/TOOLS/program_descriptions.html#SPCZ . Click on "State Plane Coordinates" and check out the 2004 article (PDF format) by Dave Doyle.

 

GeorgeL

NGS

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