Cache Destruction

[+camzotter]

Let me start off by saying I like geocaching a lot, it is a fun hobby and I'm addicted to it.

 

I was talking to a friend the other day about geocaching. I was trying to explain to him how to play the game, etc. After we talked about it for a while, he asked if any cachers have ever stole the cache after finding it. I asked him what he meant and he said, "well some people might get more of a thrill if instead of signing the log, they just stole the cache and trashed it later. They could even log it and say 'I trashed the cache'" Of coarse my friend was joking and would not ever do such a thing.

 

My question is, what if someone started trying to wipe out caches say in all of one county or city? Simply creating a geocaching account and seeking the caches to destroy them? Would there be any way of stopping this person? If GC turned off there account, they could just create another account on a different computer!

 

Someone with some free time could easily take down 50 in a day. java script:emoticon('',%20'smid_16')

 

What do you think?

[+Moose Mob]

It happens.

 

These people are what we call "Cache Maggots"

 

They usualy get bored and go away. Just part of the game.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I was talking to a friend the other day about geocaching. I was trying to explain to him how to play the game, etc. After we talked about it for a while, he asked if any cachers have ever stole the cache after finding it. I asked him what he meant and he said, "well some people might get more of a thrill if instead of signing the log, they just stole the cache and trashed it later. They could even log it and say 'I trashed the cache'" Of coarse my friend was joking and would not ever do such a thing.

I think that firstly I would not be friends with someone whose thought process even ran along those lines. He hears about something new and his first thought is how to wreck it? No. I would cut him out of the herd.

 

The question has never, so far as I know, been definitively answered as to legal ownership of a cache once placed and left behind. Can you leave your property lying around anywhere and expect to maintain legal ownership rights and protections? We in this game assume that, but I have seen no credible legal opinion.

 

If caches remain our personal property then the laws of theft, vandalism and misappropriation pertain to those who remove or damage them.

 

Morally and ethically 'If it isn't yours don't damage or take it' applies.

 

Can we stop such a person? Probably not, but we can certainly discourage such behavior, and condemn and ostracize those who stoop to it.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

It happens.

 

These people are what we call "Cache Maggots"

 

They usualy get bored and go away. Just part of the game.

 

Do we assume then that Groundspeak does not and will not have any policies pertaining penaltizing people who intentionally and maliciously destroy game pieces and disrupt play?

 

- Elle

[+ReadyOrNot]

There are some people that feel Geocaching is destructive to the environment and that it is similar to littering. In their minds, picking it up and putting it into the trash is the same as picking up a piece of garbage and throwing it away. I've had it happen to a couple of my caches.

 

If they are doing it for the sole purpose of being maggot's, then they are just degrading the gene pool. But some people probably truely feel like they are doing a service to the planet. What can you do? It's the chance you take by leaving a hunk of metal or plastic out in the middle of the woods. I always chuckle when these topics begin discussing prosecution for theft. I'm guessing my chuckles would mimic those of law enforcement when they received the call..

 

"So, you left a piece of tupperware in a bush and you want me to do what??!?!?!?!!"

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

There are some people that feel Geocaching is destructive to the environment and that it is similar to littering. In their minds, picking it up and putting it into the trash is the same as picking up a piece of garbage and throwing it away. I've had it happen to a couple of my caches.

 

If they are doing it for the sole purpose of being maggot's, then they are just degrading the gene pool. But some people probably truely feel like they are doing a service to the planet. What can you do? It's the chance you take by leaving a hunk of metal or plastic out in the middle of the woods. I always chuckle when these topics begin discussing prosecution for theft. I'm guessing my chuckles would mimic those of law enforcement when they received the call..

 

"So, you left a piece of tupperware in a bush and you want me to do what??!?!?!?!!"

 

My Internet Lawyers tell me my $20 cache is still my property and if you delete my log, it's denying my freedom of speech!

 

We understand the risks... or at least I do... but for people who create and use a Groundspeak account for the sole purpose of disrupting the game...? That's certainly a much different argument than wanting to call 911 because someone stole a TB (or thirty TBs).

 

- Elle

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It happens.

 

These people are what we call "Cache Maggots"

 

They usualy get bored and go away. Just part of the game.

 

Do we assume then that Groundspeak does not and will not have any policies pertaining penaltizing people who intentionally and maliciously destroy game pieces and disrupt play?

 

- Elle

Groundspeak does and has banned the accounts of such people. Unfortunately that's about all they can do. The caches don't belong to them, just the listing page.

 

If anything can be done beyond that it would depend on the legal cache ownership issue as mentioned above, the willingness and ability of the cache owner to prove that an individual committed a specific crime to his property, the dedication of the cache owner in pressing charges, and the willingness of the Prosecutor to pursue it.

[+Castle Mischief]

It happens.

 

These people are what we call "Cache Maggots"

 

They usualy get bored and go away. Just part of the game.

 

Do we assume then that Groundspeak does not and will not have any policies pertaining penaltizing people who intentionally and maliciously destroy game pieces and disrupt play?

 

- Elle

 

GC.com is a listing service, not a policing force of cache elves with tazers. I have seen an account suspended after evidence was offered up that a user was part of a "cache relocation" program, but accounts are pretty easy to come by.

[CoyoteRed]

I always chuckle when these topics begin discussing prosecution for theft. I'm guessing my chuckles would mimic those of law enforcement when they received the call..

Depends on who is doing the calling. If a local or county park system placed caches and then started turning up missing then, yeah, there'd be a report. It's their property on their property.

 

It might be the same with other caches that had explicit permission or permit.

 

Still, it'd probably be along the same lines as "well, I left my doors unlocked, my windows down, and the wad of money in plain view..." Yeah, it's stealing. Yeah, it's against the law. But help us out here a little bit; hide your money, roll up your windows, and lock your doors!

 

Personally, I see it more of value thing. $20 of ammo can and swag is a lot different than a $100(0) bicycle.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Groundspeak does and has banned the accounts of such people. Unfortunately that's about all they can do. The caches don't belong to them, just the listing page.

 

If anything can be done beyond that it would depend on the legal cache ownership issue as mentioned above, the willingness and ability of the cache owner to prove that an individual committed a specific crime to his property, the dedication of the cache owner in pressing charges, and the willingness of the Prosecutor to pursue it.

 

GC.com is a listing service, not a policing force of cache elves with tazers. I have seen an account suspended after evidence was offered up that a user was part of a "cache relocation" program, but accounts are pretty easy to come by.

 

I was not referring to anything beyond what Groundspeak has the ability to do concerning accounts that are being used to disrupt play. No need to bring elves or legal action into this.

 

- Elle

[+ReadyOrNot]

Personally, I see it more of value thing. $20 of ammo can and swag is a lot different than a $100(0) bicycle.

 

If I was walking through the woods and came across a bicycle in perfect condition, I would assume that it was someone's property and would assume that they would be coming back to get it. The courts would probably make the same assumption. If the bicycle tires were flat and the frame bent, it would probably be considered abandoned property and would become the property of the land owners where it was abandoned.

 

If the cache was a piece of tupperware stuck in a bush, to the finder, its at best abandoned property, but would more likely be viewed as trash. I found a cache that was a converted telephone booth with the cache in a secret compartment that opened when the correct code was entered on the telephone keypad. Clearly has value and clearly has an owner.

 

I agree with you... Value plays an important role.... Perceived and actual value can be extremely different... Perceived value of caches is often going to be extremely low, even though the value may be more to the cache owner (sentimental, etc.)... It's going to be tough to convince someone that something of such high sentimental value to the owner was left out in the woods.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

It happens.

 

These people are what we call "Cache Maggots"

 

They usualy get bored and go away. Just part of the game.

 

Do we assume then that Groundspeak does not and will not have any policies pertaining penaltizing people who intentionally and maliciously destroy game pieces and disrupt play?

 

- Elle

Well, realistically speaking, how could Groundspeak, as a private company with no regulatory authority beyond the scope of its immediate activities, penalize such a person, beyond suspending or disabling their account and taking reasonable steps to prevent their creating or using a new account? They can hardly send out a police force or dispatch an army contingent to eradicate a maggot, nor can they put them in prison.

 

Having said the above, I must acknowledge that there are indeed, at least in certain circles within the geocaching community, rather persistent rumors that there exists a clandestine, stealthy and entirely underground Death Squad -- apparently not at all affiliated with any one cache listing website or service, but rather a grassroots uber-vigilante kind of phenomenon -- which is reputedly able to mete out its own brand of irrevocable justice to handle more persistent cache maggots located almost anywhere in the world. Those same rumors tend to claim that the stealth organization has access to extremely high tech instruments and devices which they use to track and identify cache maggots; this would suggest to me that some of the personnel in the shadow organization are perhaps linked with either an elite military unit or a clandestine government agency, because this type of high-tech gear costs VERY big bucks and is largely unavailable to civilians. Incidentally, as I recall, there was even an anonymous contact address circulated on some forums to allow geocachers with grievances to bring maggots to the attention of this shadowy organization; I think I saw the address on a now-long-defunct geocaching forum (Cacher's Sandbox...) and, if I recall correctly, it was a Hotmail account.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Do we assume then that Groundspeak does not and will not have any policies pertaining penaltizing people who intentionally and maliciously destroy game pieces and disrupt play?

 

- Elle

Well, realistically speaking, how could Groundspeak, as a private company with no regulatory authority beyond the scope of its immediate activities, penalize such a person, beyond suspending or disabling their account and taking reasonable steps to prevent their creating or using a new account?

 

*snip*

 

Exactly. That's all I was asking. I see nothing in the TOS that tells people that they must agree not to destroy every single cache they find or else their account may be suspended or deleted. If I've missed where it says that, please point it out.

 

- Elle

[+rhelt100]

We had a case here in western PA where a cache thief was stealing caches. One of his friends at college reported him to one of the geocaching groups in the area. A person who read this report contacted the local police in the area who contacted the cache thief directly and politely requested that the caches be returned or charges would be filed. A day later...all of the caches were returned.

[CoyoteRed]

I agree with you... Value plays an important role.... Perceived and actual value can be extremely different... Perceived value of caches is often going to be extremely low, even though the value may be more to the cache owner (sentimental, etc.)... It's going to be tough to convince someone that something of such high sentimental value to the owner was left out in the woods.

A good argument for always putting a cache note in there. Of course, a maggot won't care, but those who stumble onto a cache would probably get into the game. That's been my experience, anyway.

 

I've seen entries ranging from foul-mouthed notes proclaiming they could have taken the cache, notes that said "you probably should hide this a bit better," to folks who trade (sometimes inappropriate items, but at least they traded) and say it was a wonderful idea. Obviously, they all put the cache back.

[4wheelin_fool]

There are some people that feel Geocaching is destructive to the environment and that it is similar to littering. In their minds, picking it up and putting it into the trash is the same as picking up a piece of garbage and throwing it away. I've had it happen to a couple of my caches.

 

If they are doing it for the sole purpose of being maggot's, then they are just degrading the gene pool. But some people probably truely feel like they are doing a service to the planet. What can you do? It's the chance you take by leaving a hunk of metal or plastic out in the middle of the woods.

 

I always chuckle when these topics begin discussing prosecution for theft.

 

But why do you chuckle?

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...72693&st=19

Edited September 11, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool

[+runewell]

and if you delete my log, it's denying my freedom of speech!

- Elle

 

Funny, you didn't think I was allowed freedom of speech in another thread...

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

and if you delete my log, it's denying my freedom of speech!

- Elle

 

Funny, you didn't think I was allowed freedom of speech in another thread...

 

Did you think I was serious? I was mocking people who insist they have Freedom of Speech on the internet!

 

- Elle

[+Team GeoBlast]

and if you delete my log, it's denying my freedom of speech!

- Elle

 

Funny, you didn't think I was allowed freedom of speech in another thread...

 

<sigh>

[+lindenmuso]

I had a cache stolen just last night. The guy has stolen several in the area and leaves taunting messages on the cache site for kicks.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d8-79e9976732a1

 

I just got into geocaching recently so this is kind of putting a damper on the whole thing. Oh well. What are ya gonna do? There will always be jerks in the world. No sense getting all worked up over it.

[+Renegade Knight]

It happens.

 

These people are what we call "Cache Maggots"

 

They usualy get bored and go away. Just part of the game.

 

Do we assume then that Groundspeak does not and will not have any policies pertaining penaltizing people who intentionally and maliciously destroy game pieces and disrupt play?

 

- Elle

 

Groundspeak will ban the account of known cache maggots. Most go away, it's hard for them to enjoy their handiwork without the instant gratification that they want. Some stick around.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

We had a case here in western PA where a cache thief was stealing caches. One of his friends at college reported him to one of the geocaching groups in the area. A person who read this report contacted the local police in the area who contacted the cache thief directly and politely requested that the caches be returned or charges would be filed. A day later...all of the caches were returned.

Well done.