Is this allowable for a cache?

[+team140]

OK, I've read through the Listing Guidelines and this is the section that I'm concerned with:

 

Caches that Solicit

 

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

Commercial Caches

 

Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

 

Additionally, links to businesses, commercial advertisers, charities, political or social agendas, or the inclusion of their associated logos are not permitted on cache descriptions without prior permission from Groundspeak.

 

I would like to place a multi-stage cache that lets people know about the local Sheriff's Department Search and Rescue unit. We are beginning to use Geocaching in our GPS training and would like to give back by placing some good caches.

 

Here are the things I am concerned with:

1. Is it allowable to leave information in the cache on how to volunteer if interested in our SAR unit?

2. Is it allowable to have the Sheriff's Department SAR logo on the cache?

 

If this were a commercial business I know by reading the rules that it would not be allowed, but since we provide a public service and are volunteer based I wasn't sure how the rule would impact this.

 

Basically, we want to be able to say, "We at the Sheriff's Department's Search and Rescue Unit placed this cache for your enjoyment because we enjoy them too. Here's a bunch of really cool trade items. If you would like more information about the unit or how to volunteer, here's a pamphlet, etc"

 

Also, we promise not to blow up your geocache if it has an official geocache sticker on it

[+wigglesworth]

Sounds like a brilliant idea - I sincerely hope tat the powers that be grant you your cache.

[+texaskittie23]

I think a cache like that is a great idea. I think SAR is a great cause to voluteer your time and energy to. I think the reason more people don't do it is because information is not as readily available as most other causes. It's not like you would not be asking for or trying to collect donations in the cache. I haven't found many caches, but I have come across brochures in a few of them advertising different things. I would much rather see a brochure or information on how to volunteer for my community.

 

IMO the main purpose for that rule is for caches "with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain". This would not be the case for this cache.

[+whistler & co.]

Your best bet is to email your area's reviewer and explain your situation. These situations are tricky. For example, just as there was a huge hullabaloo a few months ago about a cache that some interpreted as promoting a particular organization that some associated with espousing a specific political agenda, a cache was published in our part of the state basically promoting (by name) that selfsame organization, and as fas as I know, no one reaised any concerns. Yet in another part of the state, people were going ballistic about a similar cache description. I seem to recall that the official decree on caches that mention specific organizations by name was "no matter how worthy the cause, geocaching is not the place to promote agendas" (not a specific quote by any one person...quatation marks used only for emphasis). In other words...when in doubt, communicate with your reviewer for clarification! They are the ones who can tell you for certain! (Wow..I really overused the word "specific" here!)

Edited August 19, 2008 by whistler & co.

[+KoosKoos]

Following up on Whistler's "specific" information, definitely check with your reviewer. You may get pushed up the chain to Groundspeak for some decisions.

 

Some of your ideas are in a little bit of a grey area. I can't see any problem with putting your logo on the cache, the page, or whatever and mentioning that it was placed by the Sheriff's department. Suggesting ways to volunteer starts to push it a bit.

 

I think this part of your quote wouldn't raise any eyebrows -

""We at the Sheriff's Department's Search and Rescue Unit placed this cache for your enjoyment because we enjoy them too. Here's a bunch of really cool trade items. "

 

It's that sentence after that starts to blur it a little. The same with items in the cache. If there were a couple of brochures, I don't think you'd have a hard time, but if everything in the container was about volunteering and donating, people may not appreciate it.

 

And Whistler had it correct...it's not the value of the organization that would make it ok to solicit. TPTB have deemed that they don't want to make the call on which charities are acceptable and therefore try to keep out all solicitations (commercial and charitable). As with all of the guidelines, there are exceptions made with permission.

 

Even if you can't put in the bits about how to volunteer, it sounds like a great idea for a cache and just seeing one sponsored by your group will encourage some people to find out more information and maybe get involved.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I'd call it soliciting myself. I'd actually suggest notcontacting your reviewer, but going right to Groundspeak, per the listing guidelines. email contact@geocaching.com

 

Or simply don't put any of the soliciting material on the cache page.

[4wheelin_fool]

Soliticiting on the cache page is what they seem to be mostly concerned about. If the items in the cache are among other trade swag and there is a sheriff's symbol on the cache, I don't think there really is an issue, as long as the general theme is not about joining.

[+team140]

Thanks for the positive reception so far

 

I sent a message to mtn-man, which is our local reviewer 4 days ago and haven't heard anything yet. I know the reviewers are quite busy and may not have time to respond quickly, especially if they need to pass something up the chain but I thought I'd ask here and maybe get input from a reviewer who's a little more active on the forums.

 

I guess the wording could be chosen properly... instead of "Here's how you can volunteer..", maybe something along the lines of "Our SAR unit is made up of volunteers from varying backgrounds. For more information on the unit... etc."

 

I don't want it to come across as a recruiting effort - which it is not. We just want to let people know it is a volunteer based organization and not a paid position or anything like that. Those that will want to volunteer will usually do so without needing to be asked to with handouts, etc.

Edited August 19, 2008 by team140

[+whistler & co.]

Judicious and diplomatic wording can carry you far! Good luck!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Here are the things I am concerned with:

1. Is it allowable to leave information in the cache on how to volunteer if interested in our SAR unit?

2. Is it allowable to have the Sheriff's Department SAR logo on the cache?...

 

If the SAR unit places the cache it's entirly appropriate for the SAR logo to be on the cache. As a finder it's ok for a SAR volunteer to leave a SAR tract in the cache. It would be better for the SAR volunteer to leave a cache card with their caching name on it and on the bakc of the card list the SAR info JIC someone wants to volunteer.

 

A lot of cachers actually are interested in volunteering for SAR but have no idea how to do that. Talking to a group at a local event would be good for all. SAR had a lot of tribal knowledge that cachers could benefit from that would make any SAR speaker welcome at a cache event.

 

The only thing you can't really do is promote SAR directly as a cache owner.

 

That said one heck of a cool cache idea would be to have a SAR multi cache that starts with the call "a cacher has come up missing, his last known coords are..." and by following a series of clues that an actual SAR unit might use, leads to the final cache (and success finding your missing person). That may cross the line on promoting SAR but it includes so many elements of what caching is about that even if it was against the guidelines it's not against the spirit and it may get permission to be listed.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

...Here are the things I am concerned with:

1. Is it allowable to leave information in the cache on how to volunteer if interested in our SAR unit?

2. Is it allowable to have the Sheriff's Department SAR logo on the cache?...

 

If the SAR unit places the cache it's entirly appropriate for the SAR logo to be on the cache. As a finder it's ok for a SAR volunteer to leave a SAR tract in the cache. It would be better for the SAR volunteer to leave a cache card with their caching name on it and on the bakc of the card list the SAR info JIC someone wants to volunteer.

 

A lot of cachers actually are interested in volunteering for SAR but have no idea how to do that. Talking to a group at a local event would be good for all. SAR had a lot of tribal knowledge that cachers could benefit from that would make any SAR speaker welcome at a cache event.

 

The only thing you can't really do is promote SAR directly as a cache owner.

 

That said one heck of a cool cache idea would be to have a SAR multi cache that starts with the call "a cacher has come up missing, his last known coords are..." and by following a series of clues that an actual SAR unit might use, leads to the final cache (and success finding your missing person). That may cross the line on promoting SAR but it includes so many elements of what caching is about that even if it was against the guidelines it's not against the spirit and it may get permission to be listed.

 

In the NYC boro of Queens a cacher who is a CSI put a series of caches in a park there that is supposed to

simulate some of the search work of a CSI. To make it cooler, she initated these caches as part of a CITO event for the park.

 

Thanks for the positive reception so far

 

I sent a message to mtn-man, which is our local reviewer 4 days ago and haven't heard anything yet. I know the reviewers are quite busy and may not have time to respond quickly, especially if they need to pass something up the chain but I thought I'd ask here and maybe get input from a reviewer who's a little more active on the forums.

 

I guess the wording could be chosen properly... instead of "Here's how you can volunteer..", maybe something along the lines of "Our SAR unit is made up of volunteers from varying backgrounds. For more information on the unit... etc."

 

I don't want it to come across as a recruiting effort - which it is not. We just want to let people know it is a volunteer based organization and not a paid position or anything like that. Those that will want to volunteer will usually do so without needing to be asked to with handouts, etc.

 

I think it may be more likely that mtn-man is on vacation or something. He is on the forums a LOT and I would think he may even just reply here.

 

I like your idea and hope it's accepted. With all the talk in forums about geocaching giving trouble for the police, etc. (even though, I've also seen a lot of LEO's, CSI's, firefighters, etc. on here as cachers too....some saying that besides being fun it helps train them for search and rescue with a GPS, etc.), this was very nice to see. I'm thinking you might be able pull it off because you are not even really a "charity" that Groundspeak has to choose from but a needed civic service of our tax dollars, though the volunteer part may make them hesistate (as opposed to it just advertising the search and rescue services of the county sheriff).

Edited August 19, 2008 by HaLiJuSaPa

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It's all about the cache listing.

 

You can explain SAR all you want without asking anyone to volunteer and that will work fine. Then you can put flyers in the cache that tell folks how they can volunteer, that's fine too.

 

The prohibition is against cache LISTINGS that solicit or promote, not cache contents. There is no prohibition against describing and explaining something in the listing... just don't say "Eat at Joe's" or "Volunteer at this link".

 

It's all about money... Groundspeak does not want to advertise someone's business in a cache listing unless they get a cut of the revenue generated, and does not want to be allied to any cause or agenda on a cache listing unless paid to be. It's just bidness.

[+team140]

Renegade Knight, you're actually very close to guessing the "theme" of the cache!

 

We haven't worked out the details of the puzzle yet, but there will be map datum and coordinate type changes required to find the final cache, all centered around a story of a missing person. The first location will be the sign out in front of the Civil Defense Office with a geocaching sticker and "strange looking" coordinates the average GPS owner may not be aware of. This will lead to another location with a critical clue and more coordinates, etc. I figure a three or four leg journey would be enough to keep cachers entertained and determined to find the final cache without losing interest due to difficulty.

 

Your suggestion on logo and method of leaving information on SAR sounds like the way to go. I think that will get a green light by TPTB and reviewers.

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

One question though, would it be permissible to place the logo or text stating the cache was placed by the SAR unit on the cache page?

[+Harriet the Spy]

When you place your SAR navigation course make sure to write the cords inside the cache. It helped save some Mount Hood hikers in the past.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=182571

[+team140]

Consider it done, Harriet!

[GOF and Bacall]

Renegade Knight, you're actually very close to guessing the "theme" of the cache!

 

We haven't worked out the details of the puzzle yet, but there will be map datum and coordinate type changes required to find the final cache, all centered around a story of a missing person. The first location will be the sign out in front of the Civil Defense Office with a geocaching sticker and "strange looking" coordinates the average GPS owner may not be aware of. This will lead to another location with a critical clue and more coordinates, etc. I figure a three or four leg journey would be enough to keep cachers entertained and determined to find the final cache without losing interest due to difficulty.

 

Your suggestion on logo and method of leaving information on SAR sounds like the way to go. I think that will get a green light by TPTB and reviewers.

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

One question though, would it be permissible to place the logo or text stating the cache was placed by the SAR unit on the cache page?

 

Create an account under the name "Whatever Count Sheriff's Department's Search and Rescue Unit" Your account name is on the top of every cache you place with a link to your profile page.

[AZcachemeister]

 

Create an account under the name "Whatever Count Sheriff's Department's Search and Rescue Unit" Your account name is on the top of every cache you place with a link to your profile page.

 

No need for this unless you wanted to.

When you write up the cache page, you can enter (within limits, of course) whatever name you like in the box 'Cache Placed By'.

 

I would check with both the Sheriff's Department AND grroundspeak before using any potentially copyrighted logos on the cache page.

[GOF and Bacall]

Using a unit specific account name links the cache page to a profile page that can be tailored as needed. I'd think that in the profile you'd be able to say this is who we are and this is what we do.

[+team140]

LOTS of good ideas in here. I'll go over this with the Commander and we'll get it done!

 

Thanks a bunch.

[+Wacka]

In Foster City California, the Police Department placed an ammo can cache right outside their front door. I just happened to find it on a Sunday when the front office was unmanned. They had stocked it with trading cards. i took one of a nice looking female officer.

[+team140]

Just a quick update on this one for those that are following it...

 

It is now live and someone has already found the first stage (which is a gimme)

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...79-d28ae1db606c

 

mrjlsmith and I had quite a bit of fun placing it. Although we used special equipment to place it, it could be retrieved by one person with no special equipment but they would have to be very resourceful

 

I've yet to go after a 5&5 myself, but due to the technical difficulty and its location - its about as 5&5 gets around here. Matter of fact, its so tough it is going to be a requirement in SAR to complete the cache to pass GPS instruction.

[Clan Riffster]

Kudos on an awesome cache! I wished it wasn't so far away.