Needs Maintenance/Needs Archive Without Visiting The Cache

[+OzGuff]

I just love threads where one individual has >25% of the posts defending their position.

I would hate to be one of those posters...

 

Hope you are having fun at GW6 Matt!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Proper communication and maintenance of your caches by following the guidelines make this whole topic a moot point! Communicate and there is no issue!...

With rational armchair cachers. Sure. But my experience is that even the ones looking are not always rational and the ones looking have the advantage. Which gets you back to there is no need for armchair cachers to make armchair logs.

[+OzGuff]

Ack! I've been RanHefnered!!!

[+RanHefner]

Ack! I've been RanHefnered!!!

 

Well, I had to think about this one. You are USUALLY very attentive about maintaining your caches. This one has been DNFed and unavailable for quite a while. Very unusual for you.

 

BTW...This one probably doesn't belong on this thread. I only posted a note...Not an NM or SBA log. Is posting a note ok with you? Posting a note is benign in nature. It doesn't notify the reviewer and it doesn't have that pesky 'ol NM icon. Thought this was the easiest way to prod you.

Edited May 27, 2008 by RanHefner

[+Renegade Knight]

Ack! I've been RanHefnered!!!

 

Well, I had to think about this one. You are USUALLY very attentive about maintaining your caches. This one has been DNFed and unavailable for quite a while. Very unusual for you.

 

BTW...This one probably doesn't belong on this thread. I only posted a note...Not an NM or SBA log. Is posting a note ok with you? Posting a note is benign in nature. It doesn't notify the reviewer and it doesn't have that pesky 'ol NM icon. Thought this was the easiest way to prod you.

 

Given you havne't been there, and certainly don't know more than the cachers who were there and excercised their own judment which is at least equal to your own judgment but better informed for their efforts, I'd say your log wasn't needed, or useful.

 

It did nothing to make the geocaching world, and the world in general a better place. Quite the opposite. It dragged everthing down a notch. Is that your chosen legacy?

[O-Mega]

Ack! I've been RanHefnered!!!

 

Well, I had to think about this one. You are USUALLY very attentive about maintaining your caches. This one has been DNFed and unavailable for quite a while. Very unusual for you.

 

BTW...This one probably doesn't belong on this thread. I only posted a note...Not an NM or SBA log. Is posting a note ok with you? Posting a note is benign in nature. It doesn't notify the reviewer and it doesn't have that pesky 'ol NM icon. Thought this was the easiest way to prod you.

Maybe a PM/Email with something like:

Hey OzGuff, I am planning a trip your way and was wondering if there was any update on Visitor Center (GCRP9Y). If you like I can check on it and do any required maintenance while I am there. Hey maybe we can do a little caching run together what do you think?

 

v/r

RanHefner

 

edit for speeling

(last part is probably a bit much )

Edited May 27, 2008 by O-Mega

[+RanHefner]

It did nothing to make the geocaching world, and the world in general a better place. Quite the opposite. It dragged everthing down a notch. Is that your chosen legacy?

 

You judge too soon! If you are saying that my "prod" didn't get the owner to go out 10 minutes after the log was posted, then you are right! In many cases, such a prod will motivate the cache owner to take action. I have seen it many times!

 

Are you saying that if a "note" prod motivates an owner to maintain their cache, it has no value?

[+RanHefner]

Maybe a PM/Email with something like:

 

I have sent PM's in the past and in almost all cases you get one of two responses. NOTHING! Or, "I will check on it."

 

Very rarely does the "I will check on it" come true in a timely manner.

 

The REAL problem with a PM is that in almost all cases (as I have observed) the communication is just between the two participants. This does NOTHING to keep the geocaching community updated. Whereas a "note", "NM", or "SBA" sometimes gets a response from the owner. Now all who care to look at the cache page can have up to date information.

 

Why a PM? It makes no sense! The only ones who want PM's are those who don't others to know of their neglect of their cache. It is those with blinding PRIDE that get their panties in a wad over a public "note". "Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!"

[+sbell111]

Maybe a PM/Email with something like:

I have sent PM's in the past and in almost all cases you get one of two responses. NOTHING! Or, "I will check on it."

 

Very rarely does the "I will check on it" come true in a timely manner.

If you send me a PM, I don't owe you a reply. This is particularly true if you are sending me a PM about one of my caches that you don't even have any first hand knowledge about.

The REAL problem with a PM is that in almost all cases (as I have observed) the communication is just between the two participants. This does NOTHING to keep the geocaching community updated. Whereas a "note", "NM", or "SBA" sometimes gets a response from the owner. Now all who care to look at the cache page can have up to date information.

How does your note/NM/SBA on a cache that you haven't even attempted serve to keep the community updated? It does not update anyone. It's merely electronic graffiti.

Why a PM? It makes no sense! The only ones who want PM's are those who don't others to know of their neglect of their cache.

Because it's polite.

It is those with blinding PRIDE that get their panties in a wad over a public "note". "Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!"

That's interesting because I almost mentioned that the only reason that a person would want to post a note/NM/SBA on a cache that he didn't look for is because it strokes his ego. If he were to set his pride aside, he would inquire about the cache privately.

[+Renegade Knight]

...a "note", "NM", or "SBA" sometimes gets a response from the owner. Now all who care to look at the cache page can have up to date information....

 

Up to date nagging based on your opinion formed without actual knowledge? Not handy at all.

I delete junk logs. They clutter up my cache page and provide no other information that the real logs didn't provide.

 

A PM would have been fine for nagging cache owners. The cache page isn't the place. That's for actual logs.

[+RanHefner]

How does your note/NM/SBA on a cache that you haven't even attempted serve to keep the community updated? It does not update anyone. It's merely electronic graffiti.

 

Most of the logs of this nature come after several notes and other logs saying there is a problem with the cache. In many cases months go by without any communication from the owner. It seems the owner is waiting for someone to take the responsibility to maintain the cache for him/her. It serves the community in many instances when the owner finally gets off his/her BUTT and does something about the problems with the cache.

 

It does update the community because many times the owner will FINALLY communicate the intentions...(i.e. I will check on it.) Otherwise, it appears to be a DEADBEAT owner that SHIRKS his/her responsibilities!

[+RanHefner]

Up to date nagging based on your opinion formed without actual knowledge?

 

Heaven forbid that someone actually maintain their cache!

[+Renegade Knight]

Most of the logs of this nature come after several notes and other logs saying there is a problem with the cache.

Which makes the armchair log both redundant and uninformed as to any changes over the time involved with the other logs.

In many cases months go by without any communication from the owner.

True enough, however the owner owes nobody any communications. When I maintain my caches I only email the parties directly involved as to the maintenance.

 

It seems the owner is waiting for someone to take the responsibility to maintain the cache for him/her.

Then accept the invitation and do so. The log does nothing.

 

It serves the community in many instances when the owner finally gets off his/her BUTT and does something about the problems with the cache.

The owner maintaining the cache helps. The log doesn't.

It does update the community

Armchair logs don't update anything.

because many times the owner will FINALLY communicate the intentions...(i.e. I will check on it.)

You are assuming that your armchair log was the magic log and somehow more important than the real logs that came before.

Otherwise, it appears to be a DEADBEAT owner that SHIRKS his/her responsibilities!

Here is the flaw with that. If they will maintain it they don't need your log. The real logs were enough. If they won't. Your armchair log won't matter.

[+RanHefner]

A PM would have been fine for nagging cache owners. The cache page isn't the place. That's for actual logs.

 

Here is a prime example of why a PM is useless! A REVIEWER posted a note on this cachers page asking him to post a note with the intentions to maintain the cache or archive it. The DEADBEAT owner IGNORES the REVIEWER'S message for over 5 months. The Reviewer had no choice but to archive it. Defend it if you will!

 

CACHE OWNER SHIRKING HIS RESPONSIBILITIES

[+Renegade Knight]

Up to date nagging based on your opinion formed without actual knowledge?

 

Heaven forbid that someone actually maintain their cache!

 

The topic is about responsible loggers who visit the cache and base their log on their caching experience. Not the deadbeats who jump on the me too bandwagon and nag all from the comfort of their favorite lazyboy and try to legitimize a fake log.

 

If I recall there isn't a problem with maintaining caches. There does seem to be a problem maintaining good logging practices.

[+Renegade Knight]

A PM would have been fine for nagging cache owners. The cache page isn't the place. That's for actual logs.

 

Here is a prime example of why a PM is useless! A REVIEWER posted a note on this cachers page asking him to post a note with the intentions to maintain the cache or archive it. The DEADBEAT owner IGNORES the REVIEWER'S message for over 5 months. The Reviewer had no choice but to archive it. Defend it if you will!

 

CACHE OWNER SHIRKING HIS RESPONSIBILITIES

 

Thank you. That's a great example. You see, life happens. and caches may slip. You see sometimes your larger responsibilities get in the way of the smaller ones. Just so we are clear. Caches are the smaller responsibility.

 

It's enough for you to know that I'll get to it in my own time and not before. Sometimes that means a cache will be archived when the time frame doesn't work out. Such is life. Had you been nearby you could have offered to help. But likely you would have just logged from your armchair and feel good about it yet, utterly miss the big picture.

 

Owners who will maintain their caches, will and will do it without your help. Owners who won't, aren't going to be helped by your logs either. Either you are wasting your time or you are a nuisance. If you seriously want to help, try the PM and offer to help. My life is none of your business, but timely help on a cache may be very much appreciated.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+RanHefner]

Thank you. That's a great example. You see, life happens. and caches may slip. You see sometimes your larger responsibilities get in the way of the smaller ones. Just so we are clear. Caches are the smaller responsibility.

 

It's enough for you to know that I'll get to it in my own time and not before. Sometimes that means a cache will be archived when the time frame doesn't work out. Such is life. Had you been nearby you could have offered to help. But likely you would have just logged from your armchair and feel good about it yet, utterly miss the big picture.

 

Owners who will maintain their caches, will and will do it without your help. Owners who won't, aren't going to be helped by your logs either. Either you are wasting your time or you are a nuisance. If you seriously want to help, try the PM and offer to help. My life is none of your business, but timely help on a cache may be very much appreciated.

 

Yes, caches are small responsibilities which is why it DUMBFOUNDS me as to why an "owner" would hang on to it as if it were a family heirloom. Your reaction to the logs is what prompts ARMCHAIR logs! You didn't respond at all! If life "happens" adopt it out or archive it...DON'T HANG ON TO IT AND KEEP OTHER CACHERS GUESSING AS TO WHEN IT WILL BE BACK IN ACTION!!!

 

This is not an isolated incident! It seems like "life happened" again! A cache is under the weather and the best the owner could do is to MAYBE replace the cache about a year after the problems began. The reviewer states that the time frame submitted by the owner is unreasonable. Even after that note, the reviewer was FORCED to archive the cache. The owner was just TOO PRIDEFUL to archive it himself!

 

Another DEADBEAT cache owner

 

Even after a GOOD explanation from the reviewer, the owner finds fault with it. GEEEEZZZZ!!!

 

Bro, if you live in glass houses, don't throw stones!

[O-Mega]

A PM would have been fine for nagging cache owners. The cache page isn't the place. That's for actual logs.

 

Here is a prime example of why a PM is useless! A REVIEWER posted a note on this cachers page asking him to post a note with the intentions to maintain the cache or archive it. The DEADBEAT owner IGNORES the REVIEWER'S message for over 5 months. The Reviewer had no choice but to archive it. Defend it if you will!

 

CACHE OWNER SHIRKING HIS RESPONSIBILITIES

You are right, that is a prime example on how it SHOULD be done. A REVIEWER drops a hint, then they (or in this case another) archives when no action is taken. That is how the system is supposed to work. If one of the three DNFs would of posted a NM log, I am sure there would of been no hard feelings. But when SOMEONE logs a NM or SBA with no knowledge of the cache, then it gets irritating. No panties here, just a natural WTF reaction. Again, if one of the three DNFs had added the log, at the same time as their DNF or much further down the road I doubt anyone would have an issue with it.

[+RanHefner]

A PM would have been fine for nagging cache owners. The cache page isn't the place. That's for actual logs.

 

Here is a prime example of why a PM is useless! A REVIEWER posted a note on this cachers page asking him to post a note with the intentions to maintain the cache or archive it. The DEADBEAT owner IGNORES the REVIEWER'S message for over 5 months. The Reviewer had no choice but to archive it. Defend it if you will!

 

CACHE OWNER SHIRKING HIS RESPONSIBILITIES

You are right, that is a prime example on how it SHOULD be done. A REVIEWER drops a hint, then they (or in this case another) archives when no action is taken. That is how the system is supposed to work. If one of the three DNFs would of posted a NM log, I am sure there would of been no hard feelings. But when SOMEONE logs a NM or SBA with no knowledge of the cache, then it gets irritating. No panties here, just a natural WTF reaction. Again, if one of the three DNFs had added the log, at the same time as their DNF or much further down the road I doubt anyone would have an issue with it.

 

The point of the post was explaining why a PM in many cases is useless. The owner should have seen (and probably did see) that there was a problem with the cache and just IGNORED it. Why do you think a PM would have changed things?

[O-Mega]

A PM would have been fine for nagging cache owners. The cache page isn't the place. That's for actual logs.

 

Here is a prime example of why a PM is useless! A REVIEWER posted a note on this cachers page asking him to post a note with the intentions to maintain the cache or archive it. The DEADBEAT owner IGNORES the REVIEWER'S message for over 5 months. The Reviewer had no choice but to archive it. Defend it if you will!

 

CACHE OWNER SHIRKING HIS RESPONSIBILITIES

You are right, that is a prime example on how it SHOULD be done. A REVIEWER drops a hint, then they (or in this case another) archives when no action is taken. That is how the system is supposed to work. If one of the three DNFs would of posted a NM log, I am sure there would of been no hard feelings. But when SOMEONE logs a NM or SBA with no knowledge of the cache, then it gets irritating. No panties here, just a natural WTF reaction. Again, if one of the three DNFs had added the log, at the same time as their DNF or much further down the road I doubt anyone would have an issue with it.

 

The point of the post was explaining why a PM in many cases is useless. The owner should have seen (and probably did see) that there was a problem with the cache and just IGNORED it. Why do you think a PM would have changed things?

First of all, my PM would of had an offer to help with maintenance! As I have no doubt you know, sometimes cachers could use a hand with some caches and an offer of help would go a long way with the health of the geocaching community relations. If a cacher has a maintenance plan already, then they will usually reply with a thanks but no thanks message...problem solved. Now if the timeline does not meet community standards (because there is no guideline) then a reviewer may archive the listing...again problem solved. See, it all boils down to common courtesy. If after a PM the listing is still ignored by the cacher AND the reviewer, then I MAY post a NM log. But you know what, sometimes reviewers have things to do too...then what??

[+RanHefner]

First of all, my PM would of had an offer to help with maintenance! As I have no doubt you know, sometimes cachers could use a hand with some caches and an offer of help would go a long way with the health of the geocaching community relations. If a cacher has a maintenance plan already, then they will usually reply with a thanks but no thanks message...problem solved.

 

Right! And if no help is offered, the owner is OBLIGATED to maintain the cache, adopt it out, or archive it. He/she is NOT to let an unhealthy cache linger without any attention for months on end!

 

Now if the timeline does not meet community standards (because there is no guideline) then a reviewer may archive the listing...again problem solved.

 

You're wrong! There is a guideline and it is plainly posted on Groundspeak. To quote a reviewer, "Since 'in several months' is much more than the usual guideline of a few weeks, I am archiving it at this time." (Emphasis added by me).

 

See, it all boils down to common courtesy. If after a PM the listing is still ignored by the cacher AND the reviewer, then I MAY post a NM log. But you know what, sometimes reviewers have things to do too...then what??

 

"Common courtesy" is when a cache owner PROPERLY maintains his/her cache. The "courtesy" is NOT provided to the community when the cache owner goes AWOL!

[+OzGuff]

I believe that the purpose of this thread has been achieved. It appears that the vast majority of responders to my original questions feel that armchair NMs and armchair NAs are a mis-use of those types of logs which should usually be reserved for cachers who can provide firsthand accounts of the state of the cache and/or cache location.

 

The discussion has devolved into one cacher working himself into a fevered pitch while others throw well-aimed fastballs at him. In order to stop this before anyone gets hit by a pitch I will bring the thread to a close. As we are finding out it is usually a losing battle to argue with the self-righteous...

 

My one hope is that out of this thread a new verb will come to be used by cachers the world round -- "RanHefner". (As in, "That cache has been out of commission for months; wonder when it will be RanHefnered?")

[+Renegade Knight]

Thank you. That's a great example. You see, life happens. and caches may slip. You see sometimes your larger responsibilities get in the way of the smaller ones. Just so we are clear. Caches are the smaller responsibility.

 

It's enough for you to know that I'll get to it in my own time and not before. Sometimes that means a cache will be archived when the time frame doesn't work out. Such is life. Had you been nearby you could have offered to help. But likely you would have just logged from your armchair and feel good about it yet, utterly miss the big picture.

 

Owners who will maintain their caches, will and will do it without your help. Owners who won't, aren't going to be helped by your logs either. Either you are wasting your time or you are a nuisance. If you seriously want to help, try the PM and offer to help. My life is none of your business, but timely help on a cache may be very much appreciated.

 

Yes, caches are small responsibilities which is why it DUMBFOUNDS me as to why an "owner" would hang on to it as if it were a family heirloom. Your reaction to the logs is what prompts ARMCHAIR logs! You didn't respond at all! If life "happens" adopt it out or archive it...DON'T HANG ON TO IT AND KEEP OTHER CACHERS GUESSING AS TO WHEN IT WILL BE BACK IN ACTION!!!

 

This is not an isolated incident! It seems like "life happened" again! A cache is under the weather and the best the owner could do is to MAYBE replace the cache about a year after the problems began. The reviewer states that the time frame submitted by the owner is unreasonable. Even after that note, the reviewer was FORCED to archive the cache. The owner was just TOO PRIDEFUL to archive it himself!

 

Another DEADBEAT cache owner

 

Even after a GOOD explanation from the reviewer, the owner finds fault with it. GEEEEZZZZ!!!

 

Bro, if you live in glass houses, don't throw stones!

 

You my friend are like a Pit Bull. You know one thing and you know that well, but are rather clueless outside that.

 

Time and life happen to us all. If you read the bigger picture you would notice a change. About the same time that maintance didn't happen quickly, the finds dropped drasticly as well. Some legwork might have revealied that where I could find people to adopt, caches were adopted out. Caches placed had help for maintaining. Your last example was replaced on the time frame I gave the reviewer via email. That time frame had the reviewer archive the cache. The cache is alive and well (why would I archive an active cache?). I have a couple of other lingering issues to handle but I'll get to it soon enough and not any faster by your nagging. It bothers you that I don't update my maintance on the cache page. Of course not. In my area that just notifies the cache maggot to go steal caches on his hot list. I email directly. It works for me in that I know at least one cacher will find the cache before there is a problem again. It doesn't work for you oh well. I care about the DNF. Not the armchair log.

 

You judge, judge, judge, but have none of the story you might have had by emailing, or asking. Your armchair log can't factor any of the behind the scences information, or the on ground information. The real story in this thread is that your armchair logs would not help any of your examples. You playing Judge Roy Bean changes nothing. You like to think it does, that you have power, that you bring light to the world. Maybe you do, but your armchair logs don't.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Quiggle]

I believe that the purpose of this thread has been achieved.

I'm going to log an armchair closing of this thread

 

/Q

 

edit: Per the OP's request.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Quiggle