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Premium Member Event Cache?


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We've had many a discussion on the whys and wherefores about PM caches, but having seen quite a few more of these popping up lately, made me wonder: Would it be possible to hold a PM Event cache?

 

I certainly would not agree to this as it would be a very 'clicky' affair IMHO, but then what makes that so different than having a PM only cache? I believe the rules guidelines :blink: state that event caches should be open to all, so hopefully we won't see such a thing.

 

Just a thought :)

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The guidelines are quite clear on this one and it's consistently enforced by reviewers:

 

Event Caches

 

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. While a music concert, a garage sale, an organized sporting event, a ham radio field day or a town’s fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers. In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

The emphasis is mine :blink:

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I'd like to look a little closer at those guidelines...

 

Event Caches

 

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers.

All is a bit of a sweeping statement. As sweeping as it's possible to be, really. I've been to events unsutable for wheelchair users and in pay-to-enter (or at least park) locations and I imagine there are ones unsuitable for children. I can only thank the reviewers that some common sense is applied to what 'open to all' means in these situations. On the orginisational front, could a new cacher, without any finds or other hides, hold an event? :blink:

 

While a music concert, a garage sale, an organized sporting event, a ham radio field day or a town’s fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers.

I don't think too many people would argue with this. A cache event should be about caching, exploring, discovering... Fireworks would only be a bonus :)

 

In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

This is the point I have most issue with. When I held two Ridgeway Run walking events in 2005 to find caches along the historic route, they passed without question. By early '06 the rule was being applied, 'forcing' one event to have a pub element, when really the organisers just wanted to go and do a particularly cool cache with a group. When I listed a 'come and climb Scafell Pike' event for August '06 I had to ensure there was a pub included too -which brings up a commercial aspect, which might be a whole other arguement- but to be honest, I think we'd all have ended up in the pub after a long hard climb anyway! There's no shortage of events in pubs frankly, and I believe the current guidelines act to restrict certain sorts of gatherings of cachers. Can someone tell me what the specific problem with 'getting an organised group together to do some caches' is that makes it unlistable, when 'getting an organised group together to sit in a pub and talk about caching' is ok? One seems more of a 'caching event' to me than the other, quite apart from containing more actual caching... I'm certain a line has to be drawn to ensure a couple of caching buddies don't hold an event a week to coincide with their joint trips out, but is it wrong to ban far more elaborate versions of the same basic idea? What is the key thing that makes an event an event? What are other people's thoughts on what does and what does not constitute an Event Cache?

Edited by Simply Paul
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WARNING: SELECTIVE QUOTING IN PROGRESS!!!!

 

On the orginisational front, could a new cacher, without any finds or other hides, hold an event? :D

Short answer - Yes! Same as a cacher with no previous hides or finds can place a cache. There's no guideline against having a crap event (or cache for that matter!)

 

What are other people's thoughts on what does and what does not constitute an Event Cache?

Irrelevant really as it's what the reviewers and Groundspeak decide what constitutes an Event Cache :blink::)

 

Seriously Event Caches are all about the social aspect of caching, of bringing cachers together in a social environment to discuss caching and anything else they want. If part of the day is about going and finding caches then fine but the Event smilie is all about being sociable together. As you've already pointed out if this wasn't the case then every time a few cachers got together to go caching they would be looking for another smilie. Ridiculous but it would happen :)

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WARNING: SELECTIVE QUOTING IN PROGRESS!!!!

What are other people's thoughts on what does and what does not constitute an Event Cache?
Irrelevant really as it's what the reviewers and Groundspeak decide what constitutes an Event Cache :blink::)
Reviewers are people too... Technically :):)

 

Seriously Event Caches are all about the social aspect of caching, of bringing cachers together in a social environment to discuss caching and anything else they want. If part of the day is about going and finding caches then fine but the Event smilie is all about being sociable together. As you've already pointed out if this wasn't the case then every time a few cachers got together to go caching they would be looking for another smilie. Ridiculous but it would happen :D
'Attended' logs don't get a smiley, but I know what you mean. Perhaps I can be clearer regarding what concerns me about current event listing policies: I held a 'frolf' event last year, which was very sociable, but didn't involve sitting down and being sociable. That was fine. My next event is an Easter Egg hunt, which will involve cachers hunting... eggs. Again, sociable (in a wood; not in a specifically sociable setting), and not an issue. Had they been looking for caches, that wouldn't have been sociable 'enough' and the event not listed... This seems odd to me.

 

To comply with the listing rules I ensured my forthcoming Dusk 'til Dawn event had the sociable pub start and finish point, but the core of the event -the reason for its existence- is, as the name suggests, the through-the-night element. I'm obliged by GC rules to let anyone who shows their face at either the start or the finish log as 'attended', even though that would defeat the clearly stated point of the event. I agreed to those conditions when I submitted the event for review; it doesn't follow that I like them or that they're appropriate for this situation.

Edited by Simply Paul
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To comply with the listing rules I ensured my forthcoming Dusk 'til Dawn event had the sociable pub start and finish point, but the core of the event -the reason for its existence- is, as the name suggests, the through-the-night element. I'm obliged by GC rules to let anyone who shows their face at either the start or the finish log as 'attended', even though that would defeat the clearly stated point of the event. I agreed to those conditions when I submitted the event for review; it doesn't follow that I like them or that they're appropriate for this situation.

 

There's a 'flip-side' to that too, Paul...

 

I've been to quite a few events where there have been lots of new caches set.... presumably the event setter feels they're necessary to attract people to his/her event. The result is that a small 'core' of attendees sit down for a sociable chat and maybe a beer or coffee. Then you get the rest that just turn up for five minutes sometime during the proceedings... "I'm here, look. Can I have my smiley now? I can't stop, thought. I've only found half of the new caches. Bye.... " and with that, off they go. In my opinion that's NOT what an event is all about. Sorry, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :blink::):)

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To comply with the listing rules I ensured my forthcoming Dusk 'til Dawn event had the sociable pub start and finish point, but the core of the event -the reason for its existence- is, as the name suggests, the through-the-night element. I'm obliged by GC rules to let anyone who shows their face at either the start or the finish log as 'attended', even though that would defeat the clearly stated point of the event. I agreed to those conditions when I submitted the event for review; it doesn't follow that I like them or that they're appropriate for this situation.

Simple question. Would the event happen anyway if there wasn't an Event Cache built around it? If the answer is Yes then it probably isn't a proper Event Cache and should be organised via the forum instead.

 

The Dusk 'til Dawn cache run would happen no matter what as those who are interested are interested for the experience. However, many people only want to meet other cachers and will turn up for the pub bit but not the cache run. That's the true "Event Cache" bit of the whole thing.

 

:blink:

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Hmmm...

 

Groundspeak speak thus:

 

Member Only Caches

Some caches are only available to Premium Members. This has been a request of many geocachers who want to put more energy into designing a cache for dedicated geocachers. As the cache owner, you can make any of your caches "subscriber only" so folks will need a subscription to seek it out. (Note: Member Only caches may not be any better than public geocaches. Each cache is managed by its cache owner.)

(emphasis mine)

 

I'd say it's perfectly clear that an Event Cache can be "subscriber only".

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The site is full of slight inconsistencies and this is one of these. Define a cache...now how does and Event fit that definition? Not every Event Cache has a logbook, you can't always take something, leave something and they certainly aren't permanent.

 

An Event Cache shouldn't be Premium Members only and the Guideline that I quoted supports that. No argument :blink:

 

Ps. that piece you quoted doesn't come from the Guidelines page:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#event

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No, it was quoted from:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe/

 

An "event" is clearly defined as a "cache" on the guidelines page.

 

This is yet another case of the lack of transparency that we face. Every time there is a slightly "confrontational" (for want of a better word) topic, the reviewers always seem to have the precise answer. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but why are the reviewers guidelines (which are clearly different to the published ones) well hidden?

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WARNING: SELECTIVE QUOTING IN PROGRESS!!!!

 

To comply with the listing rules I ensured my forthcoming Dusk 'til Dawn event had the sociable pub start and finish point, but the core of the event -the reason for its existence- is, as the name suggests, the through-the-night element. I'm obliged by GC rules to let anyone who shows their face at either the start or the finish log as 'attended', even though that would defeat the clearly stated point of the event. I agreed to those conditions when I submitted the event for review; it doesn't follow that I like them or that they're appropriate for this situation.

 

You could have organised it as a Flash Mob Event half way round the route, at about 2:00am

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To comply with the listing rules I ensured my forthcoming Dusk 'til Dawn event had the sociable pub start and finish point, but the core of the event -the reason for its existence- is, as the name suggests, the through-the-night element. I'm obliged by GC rules to let anyone who shows their face at either the start or the finish log as 'attended', even though that would defeat the clearly stated point of the event. I agreed to those conditions when I submitted the event for review; it doesn't follow that I like them or that they're appropriate for this situation.
There's a 'flip-side' to that too, Paul...

 

I've been to quite a few events where there have been lots of new caches set.... presumably the event setter feels they're necessary to attract people to his/her event. The result is that a small 'core' of attendees sit down for a sociable chat and maybe a beer or coffee. Then you get the rest that just turn up for five minutes sometime during the proceedings... "I'm here, look. Can I have my smiley now? I can't stop, thought. I've only found half of the new caches. Bye.... " and with that, off they go. In my opinion that's NOT what an event is all about. Sorry, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :D:lol::lol:

Humm. I'd have to disagree with you there John(!) The Dusk 'til Dawn event is very much billed as a 'let's go and do something special' meet rather than a 'let's sit in the warm' event. It is the flip-side of 'traditional' events. What you're talking about is folks coming and going at a static meet and that has to come down to that old favourite; 'you play the game your own way'. I don't think locking people in at an event would be legal, let alone wise ;):D

 

On principle, of 'that' sort of event cache, you're quite right of course. It's not in the spirit of the thing to stick your head around the door and say you've attended. Which is what I said... As for lots of new caches popping up near an event, I wouldn't want to presume why it happens. I've never done it myself (bar a couple of caches left during events to celebrate them) but I'd guess it's to make an area more attractive to non-locals, who may want to come and make a day out of the trip, rather than a quickie visit. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I'll let others say. Certainly I've enjoyed caches specifically hidden for events in the past, and plan to put a 'special' night series out with drsolly to make my D2D event 'worthwhile' to people who've already done either or both existing local clusters, as well as extend the walk to the 9 hours I need to make it work. So you see, there's really no disagreement at all. :D

I'm so glad. I hate arguements. Especially ones I can't win :D

 

Edit:

You could have organised it as a Flash Mob Event half way round the route, at about 2:00am
Not bad. Not bad at all. Noted for next time! Thanks :) Edited by Simply Paul
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No, it was quoted from:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe/

It's also on this page:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/my/subscription.aspx

 

An "event" is clearly defined as a "cache" on the guidelines page.

The very first line describes it as a "gathering" which means it's not a cache in the usual terms. You know that as well as I do as does pretty much everyone else here!

 

This is yet another case of the lack of transparency that we face. Every time there is a slightly "confrontational" (for want of a better word) topic, the reviewers always seem to have the precise answer. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but why are the reviewers guidelines (which are clearly different to the published ones) well hidden?

Da*n! We've been rumbled...now I'm gonna get fired because I've let everyone know about the "secret" guidelines. :D

 

Reviewers are held to the same guidelines as everyone else. We do have to interpret them though and we discuss them at length and receive guidance from Groundspeak. When enough examples occur for a guideline change it happens on the site as well. This however, doesn't fall into that category which you well know.

 

If there was a MO Event organised I'd say you would be at the top of the queue of people complaining about it

 

:lol:

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I've been to quite a few events where there have been lots of new caches set.... presumably the event setter feels they're necessary to attract people to his/her event. The result is that a small 'core' of attendees sit down for a sociable chat and maybe a beer or coffee. Then you get the rest that just turn up for five minutes sometime during the proceedings... "I'm here, look. Can I have my smiley now? I can't stop, thought. I've only found half of the new caches. Bye.... " and with that, off they go. In my opinion that's NOT what an event is all about. Sorry, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :D:lol::D

 

I'll put that new Smithfield micro on hold then. :):lol:

 

As to event caches.The cache IS the event.Anything else is superfluous to this.Some cachers like to use it as an excuse to go-a-caching,where as others are quite happy to sit,chat and drink fine ales.I like the idea of both,especially if I were to make a long journey at the weekend. ;)

 

Edited to add...I personally wouldn't go the the UK Mega Event without the promise of some caching action.

Edited by currykev
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This is yet another case of the lack of transparency that we face. Every time there is a slightly "confrontational" (for want of a better word) topic, the reviewers always seem to have the precise answer. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but why are the reviewers guidelines (which are clearly different to the published ones) well hidden?

You should well know that Reviewers don't always have a precise answer. Many is the time that we have been criticised for not being precise enough and for being vague in our explanations. Neither do we have a hidden set of guidelines which are different from those written down by Groundspeak.

 

What we try and do is to interpret those fixed guidelines to achieve what we believe to be result appropriate to unforseen or particular local circumstances. I will concede that this can lead to inconsistencies but for this I will not apologise. We believe that we do this to the overall benefit of the Geocaching scene in the UK, and thanks now to Croaghan, Ireland.

 

The only thing hidden from you are our feelings and instincts upon which we rely for much of the "work" we do. What may seem right for a particular circumstance on a particular day may well be different at another place at another time. That's life so get on with it.

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I don't agree with a 'Premium Members' only event, events should be open to all ages and abilities and those with dogs where possible, just the same as 'camping' events should also be available for those who prefer caravans/hotels or for day visitors.

 

But then I have seen evening pub events where children are excluded?

 

Like is always said - they are guidelines, not rules! :D

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I don't agree with a 'Premium Members' only event, events should be open to all ages and abilities and those with dogs where possible, just the same as 'camping' events should also be available for those who prefer caravans/hotels or for day visitors.

 

But then I have seen evening pub events where children are excluded?

 

Like is always said - they are guidelines, not rules! :D

 

A pub event which excludes children may not be the choice of the cacher but the restrictions which the landlord has placed on the event - i know, im speaking from experience (see Farewell Brum Bash)

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The restriction on "organised cache hunts" is a way to prevent people getting an extra "smiley" (OK, it's not the smiley icon, but it's a "found") for "simply" finding caches.

 

There's nothing to stop someone organising a meal or drink at a pub which is at the end of a 4-mile walk which happens to be 20 feet from a cache. The point is that to attend the event, you don't have to do the cache trip as well.

 

In practice this all relies on people "playing the game" to some extent. There is probably not a single one of the guidelines which a high-powered lawyer couldn't shoot down in a court of law, especially since the reviewers aren't governed by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and do not implement the thousands (!) of decisions which they make each year with obsessive-compulsive levels of consistency - thank goodness!.

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