The Fine Art of "Guggling"?

[+Harry Dolphin]

I ran into an intresting situation that I had not encountered before. And, so, I brought a question to the forum. I received many interesting anwers, Some were relevant to the question posed; some were not. Some were even insulting. Be that as it may. It is probably what one should expect when asking a question on a forum, such as this.

I pondered the replies. (Yes, even the inane ones.) I reached my decision based on the logic and common sense I found here. (I like Arriblossom's response best!) But, as BrianSnat (and others said), I found a cache, but not the cache as published. Thusly, I changed my log to an "FTG" ("First to Guggle") note. (Great new word!)

I thought that I did a fairly good job of presenting the wuandary. I left politics and personailty out of it, I didn't even mention that if I had not walked over and said "Hi", the cache owner would probably never have known that he'd been spotted, and the situation would probably have been moot.

I would have thought that this would end the discussion, but I am rather surprised to find personality and politics entering the discussion at this point. As I chose not to argue the irrelevance of some of the replies to my question, nor am I going to argue what seem to be personal attacks. Certainly not in a public forum. I am more of a gentleman than that. If certain parties wish to take that discussion to e-mail, I may chose to discuss it with those parties.

That is certainly not relevant to the discussion of the question that I posed. (It should be noted that never did I mention the cache, nor the cache hider, though that information is not difficult to ascertain.)

I thank all those who chose to help with the resolution to my quandary.

Since that quandary has been resolved, I beseech the moderator to close this thread at his/her earliest convenience.

[+Ambrosia]

I guess it's not all that surprising, the responses to this thread. No matter what, there is always answers from all sides and angles, because the forums are made up of lots of different people with different experiences and opinions. It's what I like about being here, even if it's frustrating and maddening sometimes.

[+Ambrosia]

Also - if you want the thread closed quickly, report your own post and explain what you want in it. The mods aren't everywhere all the time, so that way you have their attention faster.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I pondered the replies. (Yes, even the inane ones.)

 

Oh, good. I was afraid you hadn't read my post . I was feeling hurt.

[+TrailGators]

I think you found it and should log it as a beta-tester because it wasn't a listed cache when you found it. I think that everyone that plays the FTF game should have an equal and fair chance at every FTF. So in my view the FTF shouldn't really be up for grabs until the cache is listed and the race is on.

[+ThirstyMick]

People are quick to get all superior commenting on ethics and principals and whatnot; it's just a silly game. No real harm was done, and Condortrax himself said he was laughing at the situation! Of course he had every right to move it and of course you had every right to claim it (before he moved it) I think you drew the right conclusion. and i think everyone else needs to chill.

[+HoustonControl]

People are quick to get all superior commenting on ethics and principals and whatnot; it's just a silly game. No real harm was done, and Condortrax himself said he was laughing at the situation! Of course he had every right to move it and of course you had every right to claim it (before he moved it) I think you drew the right conclusion. and i think everyone else needs to chill.

Amen!

 

I've brute-forced a few caches in my time too, found caches by accident while looking for other caches, etc. I was told by more experienced cachers when I started this game that as long as you find it and sign the log, it's a find. In this particular instance, I think you have to take the mindset of the hider into account. A prolific cache hider in my area was placing a series of caches along a new hike and bike trail with a new cache coming out every couple of days or so. After getting FTF on two or three, I started snooping further down the trail, looking for the next hide, but had no luck because he was acutally placing them one at a time. One morning I got the latest FTF, and on the way back to the car, spotted the hider walking along the trail. I snuck up behind him as he was hiding a cache and said, "that'll be my easiest FTF ever". He laughed and laughed, then offered me the logbook to sign, which I did.

 

I mean, really, it's an FTF. There's no prize money involved, no national rankings, no bonus air miles, just bragging rights.

[Clan Riffster]

The premature FTF would have taken away from those that had actually completed the series and stage puzzles, and, in particular to the FTF that did them as listed.

And I thought politics was silly. Premature FTF? Were they still First? Shouldn't it read "and, in particular to the STF that did them as listed"? I read the cache page for Wood You Leaf Me Alone ? and I'm not seeing any specific requirements stating that the only allowed method for claiming a find is to jump through your hoops in order. From an outsider's perspective it looks fairly simple. It's a cache. He found it. He did so before anybody else. Since he was the First To Find that cache, I'd say any FTF honors belong to him. Pretending that the STF is really the FTF does little for your credibility.

 

We've got a local that is an absolute genius at finding puzzle caches without actually solving the puzzles. He's so good at it that his nickname has become part of the local caching lingo, as in "I couldn't solve the puzzle, so I Jetskiered it instead. Only took me 5 hours of searching". Do his finds no longer count?

Edited June 23, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[+Resolution]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the scenario. From what I understand:

 

1. There was a container placed in the woods during the set-up process of a series cache. At the time, the location and container were going to be the final.

 

2. Upon being seen, the CO decides to instead make that location a third step in the seies and temporarily rehides the container in a slightly different location.

 

3. He goes home and creates a new container for this third stage. I've done caches by this particular CO before. The unique stage containers are a big part of the adventure.

 

4. Upon returning to replace the original container (which is still going to be the container for the final) he discovers that the log for the final has been signed by the person that had seen the initial hide.

 

5. He swaps the new third stage container for the final container and takes the final to be moved to a completely new area.

 

6. He removes the signed page from the final logbook, places the final in its new location and submits the entire four stage series for approval.

 

7. The debate starts over whether the log for the final cache is a legitimate FTF.

 

This is where I lose the story. I can see an arguement for claiming FTF. But FTF for what? Should it be for cache listing whose coordinates lead to the location where the container was found (which is now the location of the third stage container)? Or should it be for the actual physical container and logbook that have their own cache listing at completely different coordinates (which is the new location of the final)?

 

What defines which cache listing is the correct listing when logging a find?

Edited June 23, 2007 by Resolution

[+JamGuys]

 

This is where I lose the story. I can see an arguement for claiming FTF. But FTF for what? Should it be for cache listing whose coordinates lead to the location where the container was found (which is now the location of the third stage container)? Or should it be for the actual physical container and logbook that have their own cache listing at completely different coordinates (which is the new location of the final)?

 

In my opinion, neither. The OP stumbled upon a cache that had not yet come to be and, for all intents and purposes, has subsequently ceased to exist. It's kinda like the Twilight Zone!

[+ArtieD]

After reading what Condor has said on the matter, it seems our resident dolphin is nothing more than a poor sport about not getting his precious FTF.

 

How mature of you, Harry...the CO doesn't let you have the FTF (which you did NOT deserve, BTW) so you place all his caches on ignore?

 

Why are you taking it so personally? After all...it's just a game...

[+TrailGators]

The premature FTF would have taken away from those that had actually completed the series and stage puzzles, and, in particular to the FTF that did them as listed.

And I thought politics was silly. Premature FTF? Were they still First? Shouldn't it read "and, in particular to the STF that did them as listed"? I read the cache page for Wood You Leaf Me Alone ? and I'm not seeing any specific requirements stating that the only allowed method for claiming a find is to jump through your hoops in order. From an outsider's perspective it looks fairly simple. It's a cache. He found it. He did so before anybody else. Since he was the First To Find that cache, I'd say any FTF honors belong to him. Pretending that the STF is really the FTF does little for your credibility.

 

We've got a local that is an absolute genius at finding puzzle caches without actually solving the puzzles. He's so good at it that his nickname has become part of the local caching lingo, as in "I couldn't solve the puzzle, so I Jetskiered it instead. Only took me 5 hours of searching". Do his finds no longer count?

It does count but I think stumbling across a listed cache is different. This issue seems like it has more to do with sportsmanship than anything else. A true FTF is about "competing" with other FTFers on a level playing field. It's a mini Amazing Race. I guess this guy got there first but he missed the entire point of the FTF race. As an owner, the FTF race to our newly placed caches is one of the things we all enjoy watching. I guess this owner will have to enjoy it the next time unless the accidental finder logs is as a beta-tester. Is the FTF is so important to this guy that he won't log it as a beta-tester? Edited June 23, 2007 by TrailGators

[Clan Riffster]

Is the FTF is so important to this guy that he won't log it as a beta-tester?

Why would he? Based upon his original post, he was not beta testing the cache.

A true FTF is about "competing" with other FTFers on a level playing field.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think a true FTF is about finding a cache before anybody else. In this particular game, competition only exists for those who thrive on it. There are a few caches I've found before anybody else, and even some I've FTF'ed on purpose, but I've never considered myself to be competing with anyone for the honors. I guess I'm not a true FTF hound, eh? He found the cache before anybody else, in the location originally intended as the final, by the hider. How could that possibly be anything but an FTF?

 

Either way, it looks like Harry resolved this to both his and the hider's satisfaction, which is all that matters in the end.

[+JamGuys]

He found the cache before anybody else, in the location originally intended as the final, by the hider. How could that possibly be anything but an FTF?

 

Because it wasn't published?

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

[+boda]

He found the cache before anybody else, in the location originally intended as the final, by the hider. How could that possibly be anything but an FTF?

 

Because it wasn't published?

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

Publishing a cache does not make it a cache. It just lists a cache that is already there.

[+TrailGators]

A true FTF is about "competing" with other FTFers on a level playing field.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think a true FTF is about finding a cache before anybody else. In this particular game, competition only exists for those who thrive on it. There are a few caches I've found before anybody else, and even some I've FTF'ed on purpose, but I've never considered myself to be competing with anyone for the honors. I guess I'm not a true FTF hound, eh? He found the cache before anybody else, in the location originally intended as the final, by the hider. How could that possibly be anything but an FTF?

He signed the logbook first. It's basically the same thing as me being with a friend when they hide a cache and signing the logbook and claiming FTF. I think everyone should have a fair shot at finding the cache first. Hence, the logic behind only having the FTF competition after the cache is listed. The FTFers around here definitely view it as a competition and they are proud of beating everyone to the cache. Like I said the FTF out here is a fun mini Amazing Race game. I don't play anymore it but I understand the way they play it and I will let them have their fun. That's just me... Edited June 24, 2007 by TrailGators

[+JamGuys]

He found the cache before anybody else, in the location originally intended as the final, by the hider. How could that possibly be anything but an FTF?

 

Because it wasn't published?

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

Publishing a cache does not make it a cache. It just lists a cache that is already there.

Well, I disagree but that would appear to be the major point of contention here. Let's say for the sake of argument that the cache owner, realizing that his unpublished cache has been discovered, moves it 100 miles away to his vacation home by the lake and publishes it there. By your argument, the OP could still claim to be FTF on the cache and that doesn't make any sense at all now, does it?

Edited June 24, 2007 by JamGuys