What Is The Benchmark

[+5¢]

I will start with I am still new at this benchmarking thing. I was reading some benchmark pages when I came across this one. My question is, what is the benchmark, the spire, or something inside the dome?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=KA1874

 

5¢

[Bill93]

This goes along with Papa Bear's thread currently running in this forum. In this case, it looks like the whole thing is probably gone so it doesn't matter which is the mark.

 

But clearly the original description says it is the spire, the marker type does not disagree, and in the 1947 entry they considered the spire to be the mark and any point set under it just an aid.

[+Cyclometh]

I will start with I am still new at this benchmarking thing. I was reading some benchmark pages when I came across this one. My question is, what is the benchmark, the spire, or something inside the dome?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=KA1874

 

5¢

 

The benchmark is the spire itself. It sounds like the original benchmark from 1885 was gone, but before it was removed, a new one was established by a traverse from the old one. So if the new spire is still there, the benchmark is still there. It says that the one established in 1947 was recovered in good condition.

 

For these types of marks, my understanding is that you only need to be able to validate that the object can bee seen (ie, still exists). These are used to sight on from other points to establish a location.

[+5¢]

This goes along with Papa Bear's thread currently running in this forum. In this case, it looks like the whole thing is probably gone so it doesn't matter which is the mark.

 

But clearly the original description says it is the spire, the marker type does not disagree, and in the 1947 entry they considered the spire to be the mark and any point set under it just an aid.

 

Thanks guys for the info. Just to let you know Bill, they didn't end up tearing down the spire. It is still there to the best of my knowledge. I will have to head over there this weekend if I get a chance. I will post a pic if it is still there. You guys are real helpful in this forum.

[+Cyclometh]

This goes along with Papa Bear's thread currently running in this forum. In this case, it looks like the whole thing is probably gone so it doesn't matter which is the mark.

 

But clearly the original description says it is the spire, the marker type does not disagree, and in the 1947 entry they considered the spire to be the mark and any point set under it just an aid.

 

Thanks guys for the info. Just to let you know Bill, they didn't end up tearing down the spire. It is still there to the best of my knowledge. I will have to head over there this weekend if I get a chance. I will post a pic if it is still there. You guys are real helpful in this forum.

 

According to what I read, the original spire is gone, but a new location was established before it was taken down. I didn't know they could do that.

[Bill93]

MEROM COLLEGE 2 HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED

 

It would have its own PID and data sheet, if it was processed for inclusion in the data base. Turns out it was entered as KA1875

[+5¢]

I don't know the date of this picture on this webpage, but it is pretty recent, showing the spire.

 

http://www.merom.org/Facilities/College%20Hall.htm

[+seventhings]

Looking at both KA1874 and KA1875, I think that this is what happened:

 

In 1947, the CGS determined that the original spire (KA1874) was to be destroyed so they established a new station at KS1875, MEROM 2. Among the elements of its description, MEROM COLLEGE 2 is described as being 18 feet NW of the NW corner of the college.

 

Then, the old spire was demolished and rebuilt. To my way of thinking, this renders KA1874 DESTROYED as it is unlikely that the top of the new spire is in exactly the same position as the top of the old spire.

 

Unfortunately (or, fortunately, if you really like this stuf), in 1980, the NGS reported a recovery of KA1874. They said it was 10 feet more or less NE of the NE corner of Merom Inst(itute ?).

 

I think that this last recovery correctly applies to KA1875 and not KA1874, and, to make matters worse, the report describes the station as being in the wrong direction from the wrong corner of the building. A compound erroneous recovery by the NGS. Which is to say, a Power Squadron quality recovery.

 

Were I to log KA1874 at the Geocaching datasheet, I would log it as a NOTE, with appropriate explanation. Were I to report the recovery to the NGS, I would call it FOUND - POOR with the following explanation:

 

OBSERVED THE SPIRE. THE HISTORY INDICATES THAT THE CURRENT SPIRE IS PROBABLY A REPLACEMENT FOR THE ORIGINAL. USE WITH CAUTION. THE 1980 RECOVERY APPEARS TO APPLY TO STATION MEROM COLLEGE 2, KA1875, AND NOT THIS STATION.

 

Will

[+Cyclometh]

Looking at both KA1874 and KA1875, I think that this is what happened:

 

In 1947, the CGS determined that the original spire (KA1874) was to be destroyed so they established a new station at KS1875, MEROM 2. Among the elements of its description, MEROM COLLEGE 2 is described as being 18 feet NW of the NW corner of the college.

 

Then, the old spire was demolished and rebuilt. To my way of thinking, this renders KA1874 DESTROYED as it is unlikely that the top of the new spire is in exactly the same position as the top of the old spire.

 

Unfortunately (or, fortunately, if you really like this stuf), in 1980, the NGS reported a recovery of KA1874. They said it was 10 feet more or less NE of the NE corner of Merom Inst(itute ?).

 

I think that this last recovery correctly applies to KA1875 and not KA1874, and, to make matters worse, the report describes the station as being in the wrong direction from the wrong corner of the building. A compound erroneous recovery by the NGS. Which is to say, a Power Squadron quality recovery.

 

Were I to log KA1874 at the Geocaching datasheet, I would log it as a NOTE, with appropriate explanation. Were I to report the recovery to the NGS, I would call it FOUND - POOR with the following explanation:

 

OBSERVED THE SPIRE. THE HISTORY INDICATES THAT THE CURRENT SPIRE IS PROBABLY A REPLACEMENT FOR THE ORIGINAL. USE WITH CAUTION. THE 1980 RECOVERY APPEARS TO APPLY TO STATION MEROM COLLEGE 2, KA1875, AND NOT THIS STATION.

 

Will

 

I tend to agree, but the recovery report does say it recovered Merom College 1947- the year the change was made. It sounds like they specifically said they recovered the offset mark, not the original.

[+5¢]

Looking at both KA1874 and KA1875, I think that this is what happened:

 

In 1947, the CGS determined that the original spire (KA1874) was to be destroyed so they established a new station at KS1875, MEROM 2. Among the elements of its description, MEROM COLLEGE 2 is described as being 18 feet NW of the NW corner of the college.

 

Then, the old spire was demolished and rebuilt. To my way of thinking, this renders KA1874 DESTROYED as it is unlikely that the top of the new spire is in exactly the same position as the top of the old spire.

 

Unfortunately (or, fortunately, if you really like this stuf), in 1980, the NGS reported a recovery of KA1874. They said it was 10 feet more or less NE of the NE corner of Merom Inst(itute ?).

 

I think that this last recovery correctly applies to KA1875 and not KA1874, and, to make matters worse, the report describes the station as being in the wrong direction from the wrong corner of the building. A compound erroneous recovery by the NGS. Which is to say, a Power Squadron quality recovery.

 

Were I to log KA1874 at the Geocaching datasheet, I would log it as a NOTE, with appropriate explanation. Were I to report the recovery to the NGS, I would call it FOUND - POOR with the following explanation:

 

OBSERVED THE SPIRE. THE HISTORY INDICATES THAT THE CURRENT SPIRE IS PROBABLY A REPLACEMENT FOR THE ORIGINAL. USE WITH CAUTION. THE 1980 RECOVERY APPEARS TO APPLY TO STATION MEROM COLLEGE 2, KA1875, AND NOT THIS STATION.

 

Will

 

I tend to agree, but the recovery report does say it recovered Merom College 1947- the year the change was made. It sounds like they specifically said they recovered the offset mark, not the original.

 

The spire, dome, and top floor were never demo'd / replaced. I believe the spire is the original

Edited February 10, 2006 by 5¢

[+seventhings]

5 -

 

If you can confirm that the spire is, in fact, the original, that would be a real good recovery. It would eliminate the confusion arising from the NGS' apparent recovery of KA1875 on the datasheet for KA1874 in 1980.

 

Cyclometh - right you are. The "1947" reduces the error, but they still should have reported at KA1875, not KA1874.

 

Will

[mloser]

The one picture showing the kids in the dome/spire area certainly seems to show very old wood on the railing area. I would guess, and confirm with the conference center folks, that the spire was repaired in place and not confirmed. It would be a great recovery!

[+5¢]

5 -

 

If you can confirm that the spire is, in fact, the original, that would be a real good recovery. It would eliminate the confusion arising from the NGS' apparent recovery of KA1875 on the datasheet for KA1874 in 1980.

 

Cyclometh - right you are. The "1947" reduces the error, but they still should have reported at KA1875, not KA1874.

 

Will

 

Ok, so what proof do I have to have to prove this is the original spire? If I contact the group that owns the building and they confirm it is the original, is that good enough? Next question, (remember, I am new to all this and have never filled out a ngs report) what do I have to do with NGS if I confirm the spire was never replaced to get this benchmark fixed?

[+5¢]

5 -

 

If you can confirm that the spire is, in fact, the original, that would be a real good recovery. It would eliminate the confusion arising from the NGS' apparent recovery of KA1875 on the datasheet for KA1874 in 1980.

 

Cyclometh - right you are. The "1947" reduces the error, but they still should have reported at KA1875, not KA1874.

 

Will

 

Ok, so what proof do I have to have to prove this is the original spire? If I contact the group that owns the building and they confirm it is the original, is that good enough? Next question, (remember, I am new to all this and have never filled out a ngs report) what do I have to do with NGS if I confirm the spire was never replaced to get this benchmark fixed?

 

Now for more proof that I think the spire is original. Here is another picture I found from the site after clicking all the links

 

http://www.merom.org/index.htm

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

KA1874''DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1885 (GAF)

KA1874''THE CENTER OF THE SPIRE ON THE CUPOLA MEROM COLLEGE. THE STATION WAS

KA1874''MARKED ON THE INSIDE OF THE CUPOLA BY A CROSS AND A COPPER TACK

''IN THE TOP OF THE CENTER POST OF THE SPIRAL STAIRWAY LEADING FROM THE

''ATTIC TO THE CUPOLA.

 

This is what I would be looking for.

 

I will start with I am still new at this benchmarking thing. I was reading some benchmark pages when I came across this one. My question is, what is the benchmark, the spire, or something inside the dome?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=KA1874

 

5¢

 

5 -

 

If you can confirm that the spire is, in fact, the original, that would be a real good recovery. It would eliminate the confusion arising from the NGS' apparent recovery of KA1875 on the datasheet for KA1874 in 1980.

 

Cyclometh - right you are. The "1947" reduces the error, but they still should have reported at KA1875, not KA1874.

 

Will

 

Ok, so what proof do I have to have to prove this is the original spire? If I contact the group that owns the building and they confirm it is the original, is that good enough? Next question, (remember, I am new to all this and have never filled out a ngs report) what do I have to do with NGS if I confirm the spire was never replaced to get this benchmark fixed?

 

Now for more proof that I think the spire is original. Here is another picture I found from the site after clicking all the links

 

http://www.merom.org/index.htm

[+seventhings]

The case of the MEROM COLLEGE cupola is typically interesting and frustrating. As Black Dog Trackers once said “You’ve got to be a goll-durned historian to recover an intersection station correctly” (or words to that effect).

 

The cupola was constructed in or before 1885. Sometime before 1935, the building fell into dis-use. In 1947, a geodetic professional from the CGS (NGS) determined that the cupola had been condemned and was to be either destroyed or re-built (destroying its usefulness as a geodetic control point). The CGS person was so thoroughly convinced that the old cupola was about to be rendered non-geodetic that he or she went to the trouble and expense of establishing MEROM COLLEGE 2. Also in 1947, the CGS noted that the original tack in the post was gone because the post had been broken off. Pretty consistent with “condemned and will be torn from the remainder of the building soon.”

 

Today, the cupola is open for tours. How did it get from “condemned” with a broken post, etc. to being safe enough for kids? I suspect that someone did some work on it.

 

So, as it stands now, the cupola either is or is not suitable for geodetic control purposes. Given the history, I doubt that I would recommend that the station be relied on for a surveying job. I’m certain that I could not represent to anyone that the top of the current cupola is in exactly the same position as it was in 1885.

 

But, here’s the kicker: it’s not very important. Very very few surveyors use intersection stations today. I doubt that there are more than about 12 people on earth today who care at all whether the top of the cupola is still a reliable geodetic control point. And all 12 of those people are participants in this forum. There’s me, ArtMan, mloser, 5c, and … well, maybe there are fewer than 12.

 

Since we don’t have rules (we actually do have rules but it’s considered impolite to say so) I can’t tell you how to log this one. But I can tell you how I would log it. For Geocaching I would post a NOTE (which I usually use for inaccessible marks or hopelessly confusing situations) with a comment like: “There’s a cupola in the described location and at or very close to the location of the published coordinates, but the station’s history suggests that the top of the cupola may not be useful for geodetic control purposes. Maybe I found it, maybe I didn’t, maybe it’s destroyed. So, let’s call it a NOTE until it gets re-surveyed.” Were I inclined to report this recovery to the NGS (which I probably wouldn’t – I hate to be unsure about the accuracy or usefulness of my contributions to the official database), I would call it FOUND - POOR with the following explanation:

 

OBSERVED THE SPIRE. THE HISTORY INDICATES THAT THE CURRENT SPIRE IS PROBABLY A REPLACEMENT FOR THE ORIGINAL. USE WITH CAUTION. THE 1980 RECOVERY APPEARS TO APPLY TO STATION MEROM COLLEGE 2, KA1875, AND NOT THIS STATION.

 

I don’t think that I would spend much time or effort trying to determine if the current cupola is the original.

 

Mercifully, I am done rambling.

Will

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Just to add a bit of confusion to this, it might help To compare this to a "Cairn". Here Is a "Stone Monument" that is really a cross cut in the underlying rock.

 

It appears as though the actual benchmark is the cross and copper tack, with the spire being available for use as an intersection station as in the rock cairn and the pole that sticks out of the cairn. The cairn is/was used as an intersection station, but the actual mark is the cut in the rock. When the cairn was removed to access the cut, they could rebuild it and properly place the pole in the top of it, since the cut in the rock was still there.

 

If the spire was rebuilt it is possible to use the cross and tack to get the replacement in the right spot and the right height. If the cross and tack are gone I don't know if the spire can be used to relocate the cross, although I think that may be doubtful that it could be done.

 

 

John

[+5¢]

Just to add a bit of confusion to this, it might help To compare this to a "Cairn". Here Is a "Stone Monument" that is really a cross cut in the underlying rock.

 

It appears as though the actual benchmark is the cross and copper tack, with the spire being available for use as an intersection station as in the rock cairn and the pole that sticks out of the cairn. The cairn is/was used as an intersection station, but the actual mark is the cut in the rock. When the cairn was removed to access the cut, they could rebuild it and properly place the pole in the top of it, since the cut in the rock was still there.

 

If the spire was rebuilt it is possible to use the cross and tack to get the replacement in the right spot and the right height. If the cross and tack are gone I don't know if the spire can be used to relocate the cross, although I think that may be doubtful that it could be done.

 

 

John

 

let me find about 100 benchmarks, come back and read this, then i will better understand what you just said.