Le Coins, Special Metals, Low Production

[+Damenace]

Based on the link that has been editted out (he had that "E" word in his post) I would say no one collects beanies any more and that everyone is trying to sell them off. At 48,237 auctions thats a lot of selling and no buying.

[+pdxmarathonman]

Actually - when I realized the dearth of buyers, I deleted my link!

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Beanie Babies became less collectable when Ty (the company making them) basically began producing to meet demand. They did not release "LE" Beanie Babies.

 

Now, kids can buy them with their allowance again.

 

This is back to my original idea that state coins should be produced to demand with no LE's.

 

Then, cachers can place them in caches again.

 

This isn't something that keeps me awake at night or prevents me from caching though! (my new baby does that for me ) This thread was created to just get ideas on what folks thought about State/Country LE's and if the folks managing the projects should/could make LE's to boost scarcity and hence demand in the collectable geocoin world.

[+wavector]

make LE's to boost scarcity and hence demand in the collectable geocoin world

 

I would not contend this fact. The primary purpose of creating LE coins and making special metal coins is likely the wish to enhance trading value. I do not disagree with people doing that, especially if they are dedicated geocoin enthusiasts.

 

I do know that I have entertained the idea of a limited edition and special metal version of the coin I am working on and this thread and your comments have helped refine my plans. I think the coin by it's very nature will be a limited coin, I will not tell people that it is limited nor will I make any references to the possibilities, but the plan is accomplished with the first production run, no other runs are going to be necessary.

I will not make any special metal coins, I have no need of a trading coin nor do I intend to facilitate trading by creating this coin, as I said, I am creating the coin so that other people who go geocaching in my location can experience the thrill of finding a cache that has one of these unique treasures.

 

I have been designing the coin with the assistance of the people at the geocoin club store, they seem to be knowledgeable about geocoins and geocaching isn't something I feel particularily Canadian about, my number one favourite cache is actually in Montana's Sweetgrass Hills. I hope this plan will produce a lot of gecoins for caches in my area. This coin is very similar to a coin for a state, province or country in that it is representative of this geographic region. It should be widely available here and not very available anywhere else, which makes sense given that it is supposed to be geocoin for this geographic area.

 

Even if the coin was being made for a state, province or country it could use exactly the same sales model. Sell a set number of coins to achieve a set giveaway target, make no attempt to satisfy any demand. Create special medal coins and give these as awards, create the coins for the awards after the award process is complete and make local organizations that are already extant responsible for submitting the awards they wish to make, make no excess special metal coins at all. Give away all the coins that were originally projected to be given away, leaving no excess. A coin made and distributed in this fashion contains every evil you have detailed, special metals, yet none for trade, a limited edition with no intention of being limited because all the numbers are set without determination of demand. I don't see who loses in this scenario ?

Edited January 10, 2006 by wavector

[+Dew Crew]

This is back to my original idea that state coins should be produced to demand with no LE's.

 

Then, cachers can place them in caches again.

Yes! I completely agree with you!

 

My 100th post!

Edited January 10, 2006 by Dew Crew

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

make LE's to boost scarcity and hence demand in the collectable geocoin world

 

I would not contend this fact. The primary purpose of creating LE coins and making special metal coins is likely the wish to enhance trading value. I do not disagree with people doing that, especially if they are dedicated geocoin enthusiasts.

 

I do know that I have entertained the idea of a limited edition and special metal version of the coin I am working on and this thread and your comments have helped refine my plans. I think the coin by it's very nature will be a limited coin, I will not tell people that it is limited nor will I make any references to the possibilities, but the plan is accomplished with the first production run, no other runs are going to be necessary.

I will not make any special metal coins, I have no need of a trading coin nor do I intend to facilitate trading by creating this coin, as I said, I am creating the coin so that other people who go geocaching in my location can experience the thrill of finding a cache that has one of these unique treasures.

 

I have been designing the coin with the assistance of the people at the geocoin club store, they seem to be knowledgeable about geocoins and geocaching isn't something I feel particularily Canadian about, my number one favourite cache is actually in Montana's Sweetgrass Hills. I hope this plan will produce a lot of gecoins for caches in my area. This coin is very similar to a coin for a state, province or country in that it is representative of this geographic region. It should be widely available here and not very available anywhere else, which makes sense given that it is supposed to be geocoin for this geographic area.

 

Even if the coin was being made for a state, province or country it could use exactly the same sales model. Sell a set number of coins to achieve a set giveaway target, make no attempt to satisfy any demand. Create special medal coins and give these as awards, create the coins for the awards after the award process is complete and make local organizations that are already extant responsible for submitting the awards they wish to make, make no excess special metal coins at all. Give away all the coins that were originally projected to be given away, leaving no excess. A coin made and distributed in this fashion contains every evil you have detailed, special metals, yet none for trade, a limited edition with no intention of being limited because all the numbers are set without determination of demand. I don't see who loses in this scenario ?

If you make a coin -- let's say it's called the "Alberta" coin. Then, anyone in Alberta that is a geocacher and is unable to obtain one of the LE (special metal coin) or unable to obtain a regular coin (sold out) becomes a "loser".

 

If you create an "Alberta" coin, I think you are obligated to serve the community above the needs of the few that want a special trader coin. By choosing to represent the region, you are also choosing to represent those within it.

 

If, on the other hand, you create a personal coin - then I think there is no obligation to serve others in this manner.

 

The reason for this is that once someone creates a state coin, it is tied to that location. I just think it is both polite and in good form to not create exclusionary products based upon a geographic region without taking into consideration the demands of others that may share that region.

 

Hence, I think setting a 2-4 week ordering timeframe, allowing folks to order and pre-pay for as many as they want, and not "surprizing" folks with a LE coin after the fact is best when it comes to State, country coins.

 

Further, by allowing anyone to order the coin regardless of location, you are creating more coins at a lower cost and driving DOWN secondary market demand. By driving DOWN collectability you are driving UP cache-ability and hence increasing the likelyhood of the coin ending-up in caches -- which, in fact helps promote your area even more than having the coin in a collection where it is seen infrequently and only by a few people.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+wavector]

Then, anyone in Alberta that is a geocacher and is unable to obtain one of the LE (special metal coin) or unable to obtain a regular coin (sold out) becomes a "loser".

 

You are thinking like a coin trader and taking into account the wants and needs of coin traders who are the only people who might care if they had a coin. At no point in the process was there ever an intention to produce a coin for buyers, even less of an intention to produce a coin for everyone who wants a coin. The only intention is obtaining free geocoins to give away in an area to promote the activity of geocaching.

This intention is altruistic but the approach is realistic. Why should I worry about anyone outside of the area getting a coin ? Those who geocache in this area will be able to go out geocaching and find the coins, that was/would be/is the point of the coin production.

In the scenario I proposed I don't see any special metal coins becoming trade items, do you ? Since every coin would be awarded before it was ever made there would be none that were ever available for trade. In fact the special metal coins would be the ones people attended events to see (not so much the coins as the geocachers who would be the owners of the coins)

 

above the needs of the few that want a special trader coin

 

Those who purchase the coin can do so for whatever reason they want, it is their money. At no point is there ever an intent to advance or hinder coin trading. Trading the coin has nothing to do with making the coin. The coin is made to promote geocaching in an area by placing unactivated coins into caches. Contrast that with stripping a coin of value or interest in the belief that if it is boring and common enough to traders they will flip it into a cache. I think a much more enduring approach is to create a coin which serves local geocaching interests and let the traders do what they wish with the coins they can buy. An advance sale would even allow local coin traders to buy up every coin, as long as the set objective of a certain number of unactivated coins to be given away is reached, why does it matter ?

 

If you create an "Alberta" coin, I think you are obligated to serve the community

Here is the crux of a state, province or national geocoin, what is the need of the community and how is it best served. To assess the best interest of the community as the sum of all voices is not credible. If a state, province or country coin was made to serve the community of geocachers it would have nothing at all to do with coins, geocaching may encompass geocoining but it isn't the other way around in my mind. The geocoins are great and add interest...to GEOCACHING.

A coin that would best serve the interests of geocachers (the community) in any area would focus on the fact that the coins create enduring excitement for the finder. I found a JJJ (1241) last night and even though I knew it was coming it was a rush, enduring excitement is one of the things that geocaching is all about. A geocoin produced to advance geocoining is one thing and all your arguments are valid, however if the intent is to get people out finding caches and to keep those geocaching excited and interested, which attracts new geocachers, then consider the impact of hundreds of free unactivated geocoins being placed might have, it would really cause great excitement, even among the jaded. These coins would serve the interests of everyone geocaching in a geographic region.

 

hence increasing the likelyhood of the coin ending-up in caches

 

Under my scenario " a certain number of free coins will be given away unactivated". I will see your likelihood and raise you two certainties.

 

I have just approved the final artwork on a geocoin for my area, when I have officially signed off I will post the design on a new thread. Do you think I should make a presale of the coin for my area in my area ? It seems rather pointless because anyone living around here who geocaches will be able to go find one for free in a local geocache.

Edited January 11, 2006 by wavector

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

You are thinking like a coin trader and taking into account the wants and needs of coin traders who are the only people who might care if they had a coin.

 

Exact opposite. I am thinking as a cacher that would like a state coin/country coin from my area to place in local caches, caches I visit elsewhere. If I was thinking as a trader, I would only be concerned about getting as many of the coins possible in order to corner the market on trades. In fact, as a trader, the less of an issue and the more of that issue I can secure, the better off I am! My personal has a certain amount of trade value -- imagine what I could get if I had 20, 30, 40% of a state or regional coin! Especially a trackable one with a custom icon! I'd be rich in trades! The coins I traded would never see a cache! (at least not commonly)

 

So your intent is to control the quantity and distribution of the unactivated cache coins yourself? You have taken it upon yourself to determine what the community wants/needs. You are extensively controlling the coins -- which I think is fine for a personal coin and think is not as cool for a state/country coin.

 

While I agree that a consensus of many is difficult, a consensus of one seems inappropriate on a state/country coin.

 

I see no downside in a wide sale of coins. More coins, more caching of coins -- simple.

 

The thrill remains in finding the coin regardless of how "common" the coin is. Common enough and trackable, the additional thrill of watching it move would occur.

 

Your promotion will be short lived: the coins will appear, be found and live in collections and the occasional trade after a very short time.

 

If you produced enough to fulfill the initial desires of the worldwide collectors market (through an open order process), then any surplus would have greater likelyhood of being cached. Unless you have follow-up mintings, then even these would dissapear after awhile -- just not as fast.

 

Under my scenario " a certain number of free coins will be given away unactivated". I will see your likelihood and raise you two certainties. 

 

The only certainty I see in your plan is that you will create yet another coin with a 2 week life-span in the wild -- and that is only because you are planning on releasing a certain number. It will be nice for a few folks. Then it will be over.

 

In the scenario I proposed I don't see any special metal coins becoming trade items, do you ?

 

Of course I do! -- scarcity creates demand -- demand will cause trading at a premium. Even if they are an "award" coin, there are folks that will try to trade for them.

 

It's a simple case of supply versus demand. Demand on state coins is above average. If supply is limited -- demand will drive the "price" up. This will create a scenario where coins will not move, will not see caches (after your initial "gifting"), and gather dust. Hardly promoting your area at all.

[+wavector]

We seem to be diverging on the reasons to make a geocoin.

 

I favour a promotion.

I want to give coins away in my location.

I want to attract new geocachers to the activity and get active geocachers to visit geocaches in my area.

 

I have no problem with collectors collecting and trading my new GAS geocoin and I do not expect collectors to give them away, nor do I hypothesize that there are any cachers who want to buy the coin just to give away. Since my initial intention is to place all the unactivated coins that I can into local geocaches, I will just be very glad to find buyers for the coins I do have made to support this intention. My entire approach is directed to promoting geocaching in my area. I am making a personal coin that isn't really personal. I am not going to trade this coin and I expect that most finders won't trade theirs either. These coins are really Medicine Hat coins and GAS is an acronym for GeocachingAlbertaSouth. I will have a new website geocachingalbertasouth.com which is a simple geocaching information resource, postal code searches on geocaching.com, links to local caches and resources like Dinosaur Park and the Cypress Hills. My coin is definitely a regional coin and I made it so that I had a tool to promote geocaching in my area. If you come down here there is no guarantee you will find one but it will be something that will happen often.

Calgary's oldest cache has had 180 visits in five years, the oldest cache in my home location has had about seventy visitors in the same five years so I expect these coins will last a lot longer than a few weeks, these aren't trading coins you know. I hope it only takes a short time to sell the ones available for sale. It wll take many months to place the rest in geocaches, our caches are not visited often. I will be actively seeking the help of other local geocachers all over Alberta South, especially in Lethbridge and Drumheller, two cities I have cached in quite often.

I have been dealing with the geocoin club store and the coin will be for sale in the online store they have opened. The coin will not be available anywhere else, except for free, in caches in Alberta South. The coin will be permanently placed in several locations so all Alberta South geocachers will be able to get the GAS icon in their geocaching profile.

Medicine Hat is one of the world's most unique and interesting cities and we have some awesome and historic geocaches, Ben Moffat made Medicine Hat a geocaching destination in the early years of the sport. Ben is the local Medicine Hat College geography professor who placed the first geocaches in this area.

 

I wanted a coin that would thrill those who found it, give them a unique icon that showed they geocached in this region and remain in their profile as a permanent memento. I know several local cachers might ask for an opportunity to purchase this coin and I am fully prepared to set up a sale that satisifies those local demands with a presale. In an ideal world local geocachers would buy all the coins in the local presale period and the geocoins would benefit local coin traders as well as local geocachers, doubling the promotional value of the coins.

If the first GAS geocoin promotion has a measurable effect I will consider another coin based on the same principles, a coin designed to promote geocaching locally.

[Not So Lost Puppies]

I have to agree with LFD. The more of a coin out there for your region, the more interest it can generate for your area.

 

Under your plan, you will have a rush of coin hunters going out to find coins in caches, and many of them will get several and then trade them away, and after you've put out all your give away coins, they will be snatched up never to be seen again in a cache.

 

If you offer them for sale for 2-4weeks, state that some percentage more than what sell will also be made for your placing in caches, you would accomplish much more promotion for your area because there may actually be many coins that will travel around in caches, continuing to bring interest to your area, particularly if your site is listed on the coin.

 

Or better yet even... let people buy more coins from your site afterwards, you should be able to do remintings of 250-500 at a time for near the same price as the initial run. It would continue to generate interest in your site for a long time.

 

I will say that I do like your idea of holding back a quantity to place in the local area though, that is what makes a coin a geocoin in my book... the fact it can be found in a cache.

Edited January 11, 2006 by Not So Lost Puppies

[+wavector]

I will say that I do like your idea of holding back a quantity to place in the local area though

 

Actually you have it backwards, I have to sell a quantity of the coins to allow me to place these coins in local caches.

 

The idea behind the promotion isn't getting greater exposure, it isn't designed to promote the website, the website is designed to promote geocaching, the same as the new geocoin.

I don't care if people in Weisbaden or Liverpool see the name Medicine Hat, I want to get more locals out geocaching. I want our area to have a geocoin that is actually found in local geocaches, I want our local icon to be one that every geocacher in this area has, regardless of wether or not they have the coin.

I see no point in any strategy to diminish the interest or the value of any coin, that strategy is useless if I intend to create a coin that I can sell which will then allow me to give away coins, my plan as it were. This plan puts coins in caches and promotes geocaching. The coins have no other purpose beyond being found and letting the finder get the icon and keep the coin. They are not intended to travel but if someone wants to take the coin and place it as a traveler so they get nice logs from all the people who move it, they can do that. I do not want to create a coin like the Canada geocoin. Personally I get absolutley no thrill from finding a Canada geocoin, I no longer move them at all. I did move a few then asked myself why I was wasting time doing this ? We have CAC geocoins in several local caches and they are not traded out, they appear to have little interest to locals, I am guessing they are of little interest for the same reasons as the Canada geocoin, they are not trackable on geocaching.com and they have no special icon. I was personally thrilled to find a Calagary Area Cachers JJJ coin in a cache so I do like the CAC coin.

 

Under your plan, you will have a rush of coin hunters going out to find coins in caches

 

You are right, I would have a rush, I would hope that is exactly what happens, it would be the intent of creating the promotion. It would last as long as the coins lasted and given the number of cachers active in our area that would be many months, as I said our busiest cache has had 70 visits in five years. When this coin starts appearing in local geocaches I expect visitors will increase. Once the word gets out that you can get these great free geocoins in caches in this area I hope to see cachers from other areas drop by on the chance that they too will find an unactivated geocoin, which is the whole idea behind the coin in the first place, traders and collectors aside.

 

If you offer them for sale for 2-4weeks, state that some percentage more than what sell will also be made for your placing in caches, you would accomplish much more promotion for your area

 

I agree with this idea completely and it makes sense to establish the first phase of the plan in a coin where large interest might be generated. If you announce the intention to produce the coin and state categorically each 100 ordered will allow a certain percentage to be placed in geocaches in the region the coin is purporting to represent then you would have a real first rate, win/win plan. The buyers, primarily geocoin collectors, would have the opportunity to help with the promotion. This type of coin would be next to useless for coin traders but highly desirable to coin collectors, the key is the commitment to place the coin into local geocaches. This type of promotion would only work where you could reasonably expect to sell more than the minimum of 500 coins which are required to obtain the icon, a lot more. If it is clear that the coin will be remade as required then you ensure it never has any value as a coin for trading. This type of coin would have to rely on most geocoin enthusiasts buying the coin for collections even though one aspect of it's value was seriously impaired (tradeability). You would have no buyers buying to give it away locally if they knew that the unactivated coins were going to be given away locally during the promotion though some might buy lots to give away or send out as travelers. You would have no traders trying to buy larger numbers in the hope that it might become desirable as a trade coin. You would have locals who wished to buy one, and others who wished to buy one, the coin would have to be created for an area that had lots of geocachers. I live in a primarily rural area and I believe I am the only Premium Member of geocaching,com within a hundred miles of here. Rudyard Kipling said that southeast Alberta had all of hell for a basement and the only trap door was Medicine Hat. I will be extremely gtrateful if I can sell the geocoins, this will allow me to place geocoins in local geocaches.

Edited January 11, 2006 by wavector

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Wow...I had no idea LE's were so evocative. We're thinking of producing some very special LE's and we've agreed that they will only be placed in caches of the very highest caliber. We like the idea of an "award" coin for caches that involve multiple steps, long miles of hiking, extended thought, etc. We realize some cachers go to extraordinary efforts to put great caches in place because of location, difficult terrrain, great educational experiences and the like so it should provide a great additional reward for the next person to come along! It will be our way of thanking our fellow cachers for their hard work. Hope you find one out there...maybe you'll get to like those LE's!

[Not So Lost Puppies]

Personal coins are excempt from any sort of LE discussion here. Personals are personal, do what you want with them

I agree that great caches should get great swag

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Wow...I had no idea LE's were so evocative. We're thinking of producing some very special LE's and we've agreed that they will only be placed in caches of the very highest caliber. We like the idea of an "award" coin for caches that involve multiple steps, long miles of hiking, extended thought, etc. We realize some cachers go to extraordinary efforts to put great caches in place because of location, difficult terrrain, great educational experiences and the like so it should provide a great additional reward for the next person to come along! It will be our way of thanking our fellow cachers for their hard work. Hope you find one out there...maybe you'll get to like those LE's!

I see these as award coins. *slightly* different from LE coins. Also, I am only thinking about LE state coins. Personals, clubs, awards -- go for it.

 

I would like collectors to be able to buy all States/Prov at all times. Cache some, keep some. (if they were available all the time trading is the only activity that suffers -- why trade for something you can buy?)

 

To me, anytime a California, or a Montana, or an Ontario coin sells out -- they stop getting put in caches.

 

The most important thing is that I get all coins though!