Reporting A Not Found With Corrections

[Team Armadillo]

So I went out Benchmark hunting with my son today all prepared to report our finds to NGS as no one has updated the ones around here in 20 yrs.

 

We found a bunch and didn't find a few. And, we have a few questions.

 

1. If we could not find the mark should we report changes in road names and highway numbers anyway. For example a US Highway has been rerouted around the town since the last recoveries, so the directions use the highway number and the highway is in a different spot now. Should I mention that in my not found log?

 

2. If the station was a radio tower, 180 ft high and it is obviously no longer there, should this be reported as destroyed?

 

3. There were a couplke of Not Founds that I am pretty sure are no longer there because of new roads or construction, and one area that was a RR track and is now a field. The underground pole cannot be there anymore or the plows would be badly damaged. However, I cannot prove it is gone so I will simply report all of these as not founds. The question is, do I give details on the change in the landscape and the additional roads in the Not Found log?

 

Again, these are all for reports to the NGS, not logs on geocaching,com, I do realize there is a difference.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Kyle

Edited June 11, 2005 by Team Armadillo

[Bill93]

I always encourage people to get some experience, maybe a dozen or two benchmarks found, before starting to report to NGS. Nothing personal against you or any newcomers, but the experience of relating the descriptions to typical locations will probably improve your reports and also help you better judge when a mark is really gone. I learned some caution about declaring something gone, after thinking I had it all figured out. A mark could be covered up but still there.

 

When you report a Found or Not Found, any updates such as what the old road is now called, and what has been built in place of old landmarks is valuable information.

 

Note the difference between SCALED and ADJUSTED coordinates. SCALED means where somebody marked it on a map, and you are lucky if it is within 100 feet. For those a good handheld reading is a worthwhile contribution to a Found report. ADJUSTED is more accurate than your handheld, unless there was a blunder in posting the data, so don't bother including your readings.

 

For "intersection stations" like the tower, it is good to submit ironclad evidence such as a picture of when it was there and what is seen from the same vantage point now. Other evidence can be used to support a destroyed report as well. You should always make sure you got to the coordinates, the description makes sense, and look for any evidence that the structure used to be there. Someone posted a good guide to deciding what was destroyed that you could find in this forum's archives.

[Team Armadillo]

I do understand the difference between Scaled and adjusted, and between Vertical and horizontal controls.

 

I have been out with benchmarking friends on a number of hunts as well as out on a number of my own. In additon I have read all the FAQ's and posts.

 

Finally I intended on making a number of further hunts before filing any reports. In addition, I will return to the ones I could not find and try again before I make a report.

 

I asked my questions because I could not find an answr. All the reports I have looked at that are Not Founds just simply say Not Found, they never include corrective information along with the Not Found. It seemed like it would be a good idea to do that, but I wanted to make sure before I did something like that.

 

As far as the Radio Tower goes, I'm not sure I can get before and after pictures. The station that owned it no longer exists and the Call letters are owned by a station in another state. The area is now an apartment building surrounded by a residential area. You couldn't miss a 180 ft tower if it were there, so I know it isn't. I'm not sure what other proof I could offer. Maybe I could find a news story or FCC log of the tower being torn down.

 

As far as the others go, I had no intention of logging a destroyed. I am confident they are not there, but one never knows. Like I said, I will just leave it as a not found and call it a day.

 

Thanks for your comments, and I look forward to others.

 

Kyle

[ArtMan]

As far as the Radio Tower goes, I'm not sure I can get before and after pictures.  The station that owned it no longer exists and the Call letters are owned by a station in another state.  The area is now an apartment building surrounded by a residential area.  You couldn't miss a 180 ft tower if it were there, so I know it isn't.  I'm not sure what other proof I could offer.  Maybe I could find a news story or FCC log of the tower being torn down.

Kyle,

 

As to the radio tower, you might look at the FCC database of towers. The record for current towers will often give the date of construction. I don't know if former towers are in the d.b., or if demolition information is included, but if so that could be strong evidence for you.

 

-ArtMan-

[Team Armadillo]

Thanks ArtMan. I checked the Database and the tower is not listed even as dismantled or terminated. It has been gone for so many years I just don't know.

 

Kyle

[+PFF]

Hi, Kyle:

 

You have asked some excellent questions. Here's my NGS report on a 'not found' from yesterday.....

 

THE AREA HAS BEEN DISTURBED FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A BUILDING IMMEDIATELY NORTH OF THE STATION. MEASUREMENTS FROM THE DESCRIBED TREE (WITH REFERENCE TAG) FALL IN THE AFFECTED AREA. IF MARK STILL EXISTS, IT IS BURIED BY SITE GRADING AT THIS TIME.

 

THE REFERENCED ROAD (BETWEEN THE NORTHEAST END OF PARKING LOT AND WESTERN BLVD) HAS BEEN REMOVED.

 

If you'll give us the PID for the radio tower, I'll see what I can do to research it. I'm a ham operator, and a former broadcaster.

 

-Paul-

[+PFF]

Kyle:

 

Following up on that advice from others to wait a while before logging at NGS, I would add that it is very valuable to read a large number of NGS descriptions. Yeah, it's not as much fun as hunting. But it give you a good understanding of the "telegraph" style wording used by the pros.

 

One of the best ways to do this is to go to the NGS site and pull data sheets by "Load Date". Select your state, and do a search from May 1 to May 31. Reading these will be very beneficial.

 

Reviewing the data sheets also will clarify the differences between DISTURBED and DESTROYED. As an example, I give you your recent recovery for LC-0189, where you logged it as DESTROYED. My wording would have been:

 

RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED, EXCEPT DISK IS MISSING. STEM AND CONCRETE MONUMENT ARE OKAY.

 

As odd as it might seem, I would have coded LC0189 as being in GOOD condition. The professionals tell me that they still could use a station in this condition. (If the monument tilted, I would have used DISTURBED.)

 

Are you ready for the REALLY confusing condition report? You occasionally will find a disk, and the condition is DESTROYED. But that's a topic for another day.

 

Don't get discouraged! It took me several months to wrap my mind around the fact that a missing disk might still a GOOD recovery. Everything will snap into place, unexpectedly, one day. I promise!

 

-Paul-

 

P.S. If you'd like to compare a GEOCACHING recovery note with my NGS recovery language, visit EZ1157. Note that NGS, NCGS, and USPSQD all have different reporting styles. (In my state, USPSQD typically reports either "found" or "not found", with no comments. Most other North Carolina contributors add corrected/updated information to all reports--whether found or not found.)

Edited June 12, 2005 by PFF

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Just curious about how you could give new 'to reach' directions for a disk that hasn't been found? If you haven't found the disk you can't be sure of it's location and therefore can't give new & improved directions, can you?

 

John-

[Team Armadillo]

The PID on the radio tower is LC1745

 

I logged that benchmark on GC before I really knew anyhting about the system. That was my error, and I went back and corrected it now that you reminded me. I also did not report that to NGS as I knew enough to know that I didn't know.

 

I have downloaded Data Sheets for my county, but I like your suggestion of looking at the recent ones. Obviously these would have recent updates that would help me get the idea.

 

Thanks.

 

 

John: The directions that take you to the general spot can be wrong because of road name changes and/or new construction. I can know that I am in the right spot based on parts of the descritpion, my historical knowledge of the area, and GPS coordinates and still not find the actual mark. For example, the directions say to take US130 (Philo Road) North....Well, US130 has been rerouted and Philo Road is no longer the same as US130. So it is impossible to be on US130 and Philo Road at the same time. Even though I did not find the mark, I do know the name of the road, or at least its designation as a highway, has changed. Reporting this would keep people who do not know the area from getting confused by the ambiguity.

Edited June 12, 2005 by Team Armadillo

[+PFF]

The PID on the radio tower is LC1745

 

The radio tower was owned by WKID. It sat on a large track of land in the northeast quadrant of present-day Philo Road and E. Florida Avenue, just north of Thomas Paine School. According to a 1975 topo map, there were two small buildings on the site, one southwest of the tower and one due west of the tower. The description for nearby LC1618 suggests that one building was a doctor's office.

 

Today, there is a large X-shaped building at the former site of WKID. The tower was very close the intersection of the arms of this building. Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where you will not be able to locate the old foundation blocks for the tower or guy wires because the site was cleared for construction.

 

Although this particular tower has been dismantled, you might have success with LC1747, just to the south. It is a microwave tower, and it is visible in a 1998 aerial photograph. Meanwhile, if you choose to log LC1745, here is some sample wording which you can modify to fit the exact situation:

 

[LOG AS "NOT FOUND"]

VISITED SITE, IN THE NORTHEAST QUADRANT OF PHILO ROAD AND E. FLORIDA AVENUE. NO TOWER VISIBLE. SITE PRESENTLY OCCUPIED BY *****. STATION APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN LOST TO URBAN DEVELOPMENT.

 

Best regards,

-Paul-

 

The call letters WKID currently are being used by Dial Broadcasting's FROGGY 95.9 FM in Vevay, Indiana.

[ArtMan]

P.S. If you'd like to compare a GEOCACHING recovery note with my NGS recovery language, visit EZ1157. Note that NGS, NCGS, and USPSQD all have different reporting styles.

Paul's link to EZ1157 provides an excellent example of one reason I enjoy benchmark hunting:

 

Here we have a mark set the face of a solid brick building, which was oringinally Atlantic and Yadkin Railroad station, and which later became the Southern Railroad station at a time when even a little place like Bonlee, North Carolina -- and how do you suppose that town got it's name? -- had passenger service, and which has survived its original purpose and is now a storage building with post office.

 

That's an awful lot of history in a few words. And a little chunk of metal.

_____

 

One other thought on proving the demolition of that radio tower: depending on where it is, a demolition permit may have been required. And if there's a local newspaper, bringing down a structure like that might have been considered sufficiently newsworthy to rate a photo in the paper. Just a couple of thoughts.

 

-ArtMan-

[Team Armadillo]

Again, thanks guys for your help.

 

Paul, I did already find the microwave tower. It is one of the ones where the description will need to be changed as the US Highway does not run past it anymore. There is also supposed to be a marker across the street from it taht we were not able to find, but we will go back to look again.

 

I will log as you suggested when I do the logs.

 

Like everyone says, it will just take me a while to understand and internalize the concept of DESTROYED in the mind of NGS. But I will get there eventually. Until then I will just keep asking.

 

Thanks again,

 

Kyle

[+PFF]

ArtMan wrote:

One other thought on proving the demolition of that radio tower: depending on where it is, a demolition permit may have been required. And if there's a local newspaper, bringing down a structure like that might have been considered sufficiently newsworthy to rate a photo in the paper. Just a couple of thoughts.

 

Excellent suggestion. News articles work for water tanks, also. Tracking the real estate history of the parcel is another route.

 

I documented a dismantled tower for NGS a few months ago by obtaining a copy of the deed transferring ownership of the land from Durham Life Broadcasting to a real estate developer. I continued the chain of title right down to several homeowners, after a subdivision was created on the site.

 

Occasionally, I am able to locate the cement foundations for towers and/or guy wires. At one site near Raleigh, the old transmitter building is hidden in an emerging pine forest. There are metal boxes hanging on the walls with labels such as E.F. JOHNSON MATCHING UNIT, along with feed-thru insulators that MUST be rated to carry 10,000 watts of RF energy!

 

Usually, however, the tower is gone because the land became too valuable. And when it is developed for its new purpose, evidence disappears.

 

Speaking of evidence, how are we doing with the script for our new TV series, "BSI" (Benchmark Scene Investigator)? We need to begin shooting in late summer in order to make the fall lineup.

 

-Paul-

[caseyb]

Reviewing the data sheets also will clarify the differences between DISTURBED and DESTROYED. As an example, I give you your recent recovery for LC-0189, where you logged it as DESTROYED.  My wording would have been:

 

RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED, EXCEPT DISK IS MISSING. STEM AND CONCRETE MONUMENT ARE OKAY.

 

As odd as it might seem, I would have coded LC0189 as being in GOOD condition. The professionals tell me that they still could use a station in this condition. (If the monument tilted, I would have used DISTURBED.)

Actually, a mark like that would be "POOR".

 

(FROM THE FAQ)

POOR -- Recovered, but shows some alarming evidence of damage or movement. Often the marks can get run over, or frost heaved, or the ground is just too soft to support it. If the mark is scarred and leaning (i.e. the victim of a tractor-lawnmower), thrust up from the ground like a mushroom and/or surrounded by tractor ruts, it's poor. If the disk is gone but some evidence (stem) remains, then it could still be useful; that's a POOR too. Please describe the problem you see in the notes section of the report.

 

p.s. Welcome to the Forums Team Armadillo. Keep up the good work.

Edited June 13, 2005 by caseyb

[Team Armadillo]

In re the radio tower we discussed above.

 

I read the FAQ's and was confused, so I emailed Deb and asked for clarification. She informed me that their policy is that in the case of a station such as the tower all that is required to report it as destroyed is a photograph of the area where the station is supposed to be.

 

So, why do I keep hearing everyone talk about finding proof it was destroyed?

 

Kyle

[evenfall]

Kyle,

 

You said: "all that is required to report it as destroyed is a photograph of the area where the station is supposed to be.

 

So, why do I keep hearing everyone talk about finding proof it was destroyed"

 

The Photo would be proof. It shows NGS Personnel that the described Item on the Datasheet is no longer present, "as described" They have their requirements and the onus is on us to meet them.

 

This is a Landmark type, third order control station. All that is needed is a Photo and a little research to prove the item is the original, or if it is not. In the case of it no longer existing, that is pretty telling. If you can show NGS that you are at the station coordinates and nothing is there, that pretty much is proof, so photo the are and photo your GPS Screen showing you are at the prescribed location to prove the original item is not there and you should be good to go.

 

Good Luck,

 

Rob

Edited June 24, 2005 by evenfall

[+PFF]

The key is to make absolutely certain that you are at the correct location. I recently researched a situation where two PID's apparently referred to the same water tower. One set of coordinates was 1400 feet (and 12 degrees) off. Which proves that even the Pro's have a bad day, now and then.

 

Here are the PID's, and the draft of my recovery notes.

 

EZ5003 WAKE FOREST WATER TANK

THERE IS NO TANK AT THE PUBLISHED COORDINATES, AND THE TANK DESCRIBED AS BEING 1400 FEET SOUTH (WAKE FOREST CENTER MUN TANK) NO LONGER EXISTS.

 

EZ4998 WAKE FOREST CENTER MUN TANK

TANK HAS BEEN DISMANTLED. THE TOWN OF WAKE FOREST SOLD THE PROPERTY IN JUNE, 1986. (DEED BOOK 3753 PAGE 0672, WAKE COUNTY REGISTRY). THE AREA IS A PAVED PARKING LOT ADJACENT TO A DENTIST OFFICE. (CURRENT OWNER IS DAWN MOREHEAD PROPERTIES, LLC., PIN 1841-40-5429.)

 

Paul

Edited June 24, 2005 by PFF