Found A Mark That's Not Listed On The Site

[+davee-n-cachincarrie]

I walked over 8 miles today tracking down benchmarks, and 3 of the 4 I went to were recovered in good form. The last one was gone, which was a bummer. It looked like the day would end on a sour note. As I was walking back to my truck, though, I decided to go through town instead of back on the tracks. As I walked through town, I was shocked to find a benchmark in someone's driveway!

 

http://www.emkeonline.com/mysterymark.jpg

http://www.emkeonline.com/drivewaymark.jpg

 

It looks exactly the same as a mark I'd found earlier in the day (NC0169), right down to the year stamped on it. However, I can't locate it on the site.

 

In the FAQs, it talks about finding marks that aren't in the database. What it says, though, is "[t]he NGS is not the only organization that creates and uses benchmarks and other types of control markers. For example, the US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) places survey markers at their dams, dikes, levees, flood control systems and other structures. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and other federal agencies, along with your county surveyor and private surveyors and engineers place markers that often appear very similar to geodetic markers, to reference land survey corners as part of the public land survey system."

 

This is obviously a NGS (USGS) mark! Am I crazy, or shouldn't it be in the database? What, if anything, should I do?

[Z15]

USGS and NGS are not the same.

 

NGS is in the Dept of Commerce

USGS is in the Dept of Interior

 

95% of the USGS marks are not in the NGS database becuase USGS never submitted the data. Why, they had more imporatant things to do like mapping the USA.

 

The USGS marks you do find in the NGS database are there primarely because NGS used them.

 

Why don't they put them there today? To much work for too little gain. Everything is in paper form in filing cabinets. Would take 10 yrs and 10 million dollars to database thousands of marks and more then likely most of them don't exist today. Also the methods used to establish their position does not meet todays standards. USGS considers many of them obsolete.

 

Thats the short story, hope that helps answer your question.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Z15

[+davee-n-cachincarrie]

Sorry... I guess I should have read the FORUM FAQs and not just the www.geocaching.com/mark FAQs. I found this:

 

Q. I happened upon a benchmark, but it isn't listed on Geocaching.com. Can I report it to the NGS?

 

A. The Geocaching.com database is not the same as the NGS database. If you are going to be submitting recoveries, please use the NGS database to check the most up to date datasheet before you submit a recovery.

Not all marks in the NGS database are in the Geocaching.com database. If you do find a mark, and can’t find it on Geocaching.com, use whatever information you have about the mark (such as its coordinates, station name, or county) to look for it in the NGS datasheet database. The NGS database can be found at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/datasheet.prl. If the mark is not in the NGS database, it won’t have a PID and you will not be able to submit a recovery.

 

I'm checking the NGS database now. I haven't found it yet, but now I see why it's not on the site. My bad.

[+davee-n-cachincarrie]

Oh, jeez... so I was wrong *again*. Very interesting. Thanks for the help, Z15!

[Z15]

I am looking for a post from NGS about the USGS marks but having a hard time searching for it. If I find it, I will copy it here, has mor info about USGS marks...

 

here is more info..

 

The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), and agency in the Dept. of the Interior has the responsibility for producing our national topographic maps. They completed the monumental task of complete national mapping of the 1:24,000 scale map series (about 55,000 maps) in the early 1990's. USGS would often set survey monuments to help "control" the map. Maps are produced from aeronautical photos mosaiced together. In order to provide accurate location, orientation, scale and elevation to a flat map of a curved surface, it is required to have numerous points that can be identified on the photographs for which the coordinates/elevations are well known. The marks set by USGS were a vital part of this operation. In the days when mapping surveys were conducted primarily by line-of-site methods, these marks helped save money by helping to ensure a network that cartographers could rely on for mapping update procedures. With the rapid developments in surveying and mapping technology, especially GPS, USGS sees little need to setting new marks or maintaining the old networks. Unfortunately the data for tens of thousands of these marks set by USGS were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. Due to major reductions in staff and the changing nature of mapping requirements, it is highly unlikely that USGS will ever automate these data.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Z15

[evenfall]

Here is a little more from the beginning of the FAQ Page:

 

What is a benchmark?

Geodetic control points are permanently affixed objects at various locations all over the United States to enable land surveying, civil engineering and mapping to be done efficiently. These objects are usually metal disks, but can be any other object that serves as a control point.

 

There are two general types of these control points:

 

One type, the vertical control point, is for precisely establishing the elevation at that point. This type of control point is usually, but not always, a small brass or aluminum disk, concrete post, iron pin, or bolt, (among other things), that is permanently attached to a stable foundation.

The other general type of control point is for horizontal control. There are several names for horizontal control points - triangulation stations, traverse stations, trilateration stations, GPS stations, and intersection stations, depending on which kind of horizontal control system was used in establishing them and the amount of precision they represent. This type of control point can be a small brass or aluminum disk, concrete post, iron pin, or bolt, (similar to the vertical control points) but also radio towers, water towers, church spires and mountain tops or any other type of object that can be identified from a distance.

In the surveying profession, the term benchmark is applied only to the vertical control type, but for sake of discussion on the Geocaching website, both vertical and horizontal control points are commonly referred to as benchmarks.

 

These markers are part of the geodetic control network created and maintained by the National Geodetic Survey (NGS). The NGS maintains a database of these locations. In the database, each geodetic control marker has a PID (Permanent IDentifier) number, and a datasheet of information about it. Although much of the descriptive (how to find it) data is outdated, the surviving markers remain vitally important to the conduct of our nation's commerce.

 

And a bit from the end of the FAQ:

 

I have questions about benchmarks, datums, Geodetic Survey Markers, etc.

The good folks at the NGS have done an excellent job with their Frequently Asked Questions Page. Check it out! The NGS also provides links to a large number of interesting articles on its on-line publications page. If you want to know all about the NGS database, check out its specifications section. The NGS has a fascinating page on the history of the NGS and its surveying. You can use the NGS search engines for finding control point datasheets (click on "Datasheets"). The NGS sample data sheet page is an excellent guidance for reading the datasheets.

 

Remember to visit those links, as they all are pretty good!

 

Hope that helps!

 

Rob

Edited May 22, 2005 by evenfall

[+davee-n-cachincarrie]

Thanks, guys, for your help.

 

Now, I suppose, the question is: should I get the coordinates of this USGS marker and submit them to the NGS? Would they be at all interested?

[evenfall]

Sorry,

 

Only Surveyors who work on projects sanctioned by the NGS are able to submit that kind of data. It is a more technical procedure than they would ask of a public volunteer.

 

If you are interested in doing some voluntary things that will help the NGS out, There are ways for you to do this. The last three Paragraphs of the FAQ page help outline what geocachers can do to contribute and if you have any questions, feel free to ask us here in the forum.

 

Good luck Benchmark Hunting :-)

 

Rob

Edited May 22, 2005 by evenfall

[+BuckBrooke]

But, the USGS is interested in you reporting recovering their benchmarks. See the topic in the benchmarking forum about reporting to the USGS.