Private Or Public Property

[+SwampGoat]

I am still pretty much a novice at caching (15 finds) and have not placed one of my own yet, although I did recently adopt one.

 

I have read (okay, browsed) through the posts regarding parking-lot caches, and while I personally haven't rushed out to find these, I support any given member's right to place a cache wherever it can get approved.

 

Which brings me to my question--is a parking lot public property or private property? I would think it's private in which case the hider must obtain permission of the landowner to hide the cache, true? If the definition of "public" relies on the public having general access to the lot, what would prevent a member from hiding a cache inside a store? Is that not just as public as the lot?

 

I'm not intending to stir the fire of whether parking-lot caches are lame or not, but am trying to get a better definition of what is considered public land from a placement guidelines/approver's standpoint.

 

I tried to do some searching to see if this topic had been covered and if I overlooked it, kindly direct me to the thread.

 

Thanks!

[+Donnacha]

if it's a lot owned by a store or whatever, I would have thought it to be private.

[+ibycus]

Which brings me to my question--is a parking lot public property or private property? I would think it's private in which case the hider must obtain permission of the landowner to hide the cache, true? If the definition of "public" relies on the public having general access to the lot, what would prevent a member from hiding a cache inside a store? Is that not just as public as the lot?

I would say the parking lot is publically accessible private property. And yes you probably would do well to ask permission before placing it (although I doubt it would cause a problem if you didn't). What's to stop you placing it IN the store?

1. The possible commercial nature of the cache

2. More importantly, ever tried to get a sattelite signal inside a shop?

[+Renegade Knight]

There is public and private property.

 

And there is free public access which can take place on public and private property. Either kind can be posted no tresspassing.

 

If there is any question about public access and use ask permission.

[+Camo-crazed]

I have seen a cache inside a mall, however it was outside an of the stores and almost outside on a roof garden.

 

I would say the lot is fair game but inside the store isn't reallya very good place for reasons stated in the above posts and because the cache would not be acsesible during closing hours or during holidays when most people are caching.

 

however, if there's another find for me...

 

Merry Christmas

 

(edit for stupid fingers)

Edited December 24, 2004 by camo-crazed

[+briansnat]

If it's a lot owned by a store or whatever, I would have thought it to be private.

 

Parking lots, malls and similar places are in sort of an in between area. They are privately owned places of public accomodation. In other words the public is invited in. Hence they are legally in a different category than your house, your neighbor's farm or your corporate headquarters.

 

Its one of the reasons that I can ban Polish people, or left handed people from my home, but your local shopping mall can't. Its also why the police can enter the property to ticket cars for parking in a fire zones, handicap spots, or outside the lines.

[+Bob Blaylock]

1. The possible commercial nature of the cache

2. More importantly, ever tried to get a sattelite signal inside a shop?

3. I expect that geocaching might look an awful lot like shoplifting to those whose job it is to catch people doing the latter.

 

  Point #2 is something I've thought might be used to make an interesting puzzle.  The cache could be hidden inside of a building or some other area where it is not possible to get usable GPS signals, but where it is possible, by the use of careful measurements and triangulation from outside the GPS-impaired area, to determine the location inside where the cache is hidden.  The “inside” place would need to be complex enough that the cache couldn't readily be found by brute-force; the seeker would have to employ measurement and triangulation techniques to narrow down the search area to a small portion of the “inside” area.

[+sbukosky]

I discourage actually hiding even a tag in private property that is publicly accessable. However I have seen waypoints on such property that use existing numbers, such as on light poles, fire hydrants, signs and such. For example, I've used numbers that when multiplied by another number are the coordinates for the next waypoint. So, if a light pole has a tag with a number such as 1234 or whatever, divide the next coordinate by it and post that number on the cache page. Sometimes bolt heads have special numbers on them. There are all sorts of posibilities. Numbers are everywhere. We can use them instead of defacing private property.

[+Bob Blaylock]

  If Jeremy, or anyone else who is in an official capacity to speak on behalf of Geocaching.com says differently, then that person's word should be taken over mine.

 

  That said, it seems to me that there's a fairly obvious principle here.  The distinction is not really between public vs. private property, but between property that is accessible to the public, and property that isn't.  Not all “public” property (i.e. property owned by the government, and therefore by the public) is freely accessible to the public.  Consider military bases, for example.

 

  Similarly, not all “private property” is closed to the public.  Stores and shopping malls, for example.

 

  In most cases, property that is open to the public is intended to be used for a particular purpose, and in general there is a high degree of tolerance for people doing other things on that property so long as these other activities are not disruptive to the primary intended use; and do not disturb those using the property for its intended use.

 

  It's always better, of course, to seek permission first, if possible, but it seems to me that it should be OK for a geocache to be anywhere on any publicly-accessible property, so long as its presence, and the presence of those seeking it, do not become disruptive or a source of disturbance.

 

  Now this may require more thought ahead of time, regarding what impact a cache might have in a given area.  A cache will draw additional traffic, in the form of people with odd instruments, behaving in unexpected ways; some of these people will make a conscious effort to appear inconspicuous, which will more often than not only make them seem even more a cause for suspicion.  Think about how this will look to muggles, especially to muggles who are in charge of maintaining security and order.  Think about what impact this will have on the intended use of this property, and on those intending to so use it.

 

  If there's any significant likelihood that this impact will be noticably more than “none”, then you'd probably better get permission first.

 

 

   In higher-crime areas, there is a much greater likelihood that there will be “No Loitering” signs posted in the area.  I know I've seen signs at a 7–Eleven that explicitly stated that one was allowed only to be on the property to conduct business with the store, and that one was to leave the property as soon as one's business was completed.  Obviously, a geocache should not be placed in any area so posted.

[+Moose Mob]

What may help clear this up is not to consider whether a parking lot is public or private. National Parks are, at least to most folks, consider public property. You can't leagaly place a cache there. BLM lands are public, and you can. You can't place a cache on my private property, but you can in a parking lot.

 

So... first look at it as "publicy accessible". This would be parking lots, storefront sidewalks, and this may include the sidewalk and gutters (depending on state/city).

 

Next is the policies of the owner and/or caretaker. You must abide by thier policies.