No Bolt But A Drill Hole Instead

[MOCKBA]

Question to the gurus: we revisited this 1892 benchmark and found a drill hole in the area where the surviving RMs pointed to:

No bolt here, and I see that after we headed back down, other participants of the hike agreed that it is a 'destroyed mark'.

However its location is adjusted, and it is not a vertical control as far as I can tell, so I would argue that the position of the drill hole is sufficiently precise with respect to the geodetic info.

I.e. that even if the marking on the bolt wasn't pos-id'd, the drill hole itself is sufficient to recover it. Any help with this?

Edited July 13, 2004 by MOCKBA

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

The mark may or may not be destroyed. I read the description and think it is possible that you found an original RM (described as a drill hole). Was there any indication of a ring of stones around the 'Drill hole'? The mark was inside the ring and the RMs were on the outside of the ring.

 

Without knowing where the ring of stones was, it is difficult to say which you recovered. Also it is possible the GPSr was off enough (EPE) to put you on the Reference Mark. If the Expected Position Error was in the 15' to 20' range you may have found the RM instead.

 

Any 'drill hole' is a good find and this one may be worth a second trip to reinvestigate.

 

Congrats on the drill hole, but don't write off the bolt just yet.

 

Let us know if you do return to the site and what you subsequently find.

 

John

[+Black Dog Trackers]

It seems that so many times the main station is gone and the reference marks are still around. Even worse is for someone to set a main station in rotten rock while keeping the good areas for reference marks.

 

I have a few comments:

 

1. I'm a bit confused by the pictures: "Excavation Complete", and "No bolt here". I would figure they should be the same place, but they look like completely different places. The first is in a rubble covered area, even with the digging out to expose rock, while the other has a plant growng there and almost no sand or anything around it.

 

2. You probably don't want to hear this now, but a metal detector (I don't use them, myself) would've been a great boon here.

 

3. Did you make sure to click on "view original datasheet" to see the distances and orientations between DESERET and its 2 reference marks? Even if the bearings prove to be a difficulty, 3 people and 2 measuring tapes can do the trick - give you 2 exact points to check, and the bearings should say which one to really check. I note from the reference marks' bearings that they are not on opposite sides of the main station's position.

 

4. As for the determiation of destroyed vs. not found, I prefer the idea of not found (Didn't find it).

 

5. There have been some times when I REALLY wished I'd brought a broom with me!

 

6. The monumentation report claims that the station is in solid rock.

 

7. Beautiful scenery!!! Worth a second trip in another season.

 

 

(edited for ghastly punctuation and other rubbish)

Edited July 13, 2004 by Black Dog Trackers

[mloser]

I think 2old may have a point, that you found an original RM, but they WERE described as being in too poor a condition to use and that hole is certainly in good condition. Did you measure from the RMs to the hole to see if the distance and compass readings matched the description? Whenever I have trouble finding one or more marks of a triangulation station I begin by measuring the distance from a known mark to the unknown one(s). This has rarely failed me, and a few times even resulted in my digging out a buried mark.

[MOCKBA]

it is possible that you found an original RM (described as a drill hole). Was there any indication of a ring of stones around the 'Drill hole'?

...

Also it is possible the GPSr was off enough (EPE) to put you on the Reference Mark.

We can rule the original RM holes, those weathered away by the time of 1938 recovery. There is no ring of stones on the summit, all the rocks which could be lifted have been moved to build a wind shelter (visible on the pictures).

GPS error is probably irrelevant for our mark id, since we relied on existing RMs to the narrow down the search. But the arrows are probably giving a general direction only, not too precisely. Black Dog Trackers is absolutely right, we should have brought measuring tape every time. My 2003 pictures are certainly closer to RM2, and more distant from RM1, then the datasheet suggests. Back then, I dug in the depression in the rock which was pointed to by the RM arrows... should have known better. And I should say that I originally discounted this hole because from my earlier recovery on the other end of this mountain range, I expected a quarter-inch bolt, and this drill hole looked wider. But this BM is 5 years younger, and now I know that USGS was switching to a larger-diameter bolts around that time. So possibly CGS switched too.

OK everybody, the question is still open. Gotta pack a tape and retry!

Edited July 13, 2004 by MOCKBA

[+Spoo]

This is a tough call. I think that if your angles and distances are correct, then if I were in your shoes, I would claim it as a find but show it as dmagaed-mutilated-in need of help.

 

I recently tried to locate a pin that as far back as the 1920's was shown as loose and could be removed with ones fingers. I did not find anything at all, but think if I had found a hole in that location I would have claimed a FOUND IT but given the details.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but that is my opinion.

[Z15]

Here is an example of how NGS and USGS treated this situation.

 

 

RL0857 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

RL0857 HISTORY - 1939 MONUMENTED USGS

RL0857 HISTORY - 1948 GOOD NGS

RL0857 HISTORY - 1977 GOOD NGS

RL0857 HISTORY - 1977 DESTROYED USGS

 

 

RL0857 STATION RECOVERY (1977)

RL0857

RL0857'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1977 (WOM)

RL0857'THE HOLE IN WHICH THE STATION MARK WAS SET WAS RECOVERED, REFERENCE

RL0857'MARKS 1 AND 2 WERE RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED AND FOUND IN GOOD

RL0857'CONDITION. A SEARCH WAS MADE FOR THE AZIMUTH MARK BUT WAS NOT

RL0857'RECOVERED. A NEW TO REACH FOLLOWS.

RL0857'

RL0857'TO REACH FROM THE U.S. POST OFFICE IN ROCKLAND, GO SOUTH ON U.S.

RL0857'HIGHWAY 45 FOR 0.2 MILE TO A CROSS STREET. TURN LEFT AND GO 0.1

RL0857'MILE TO A T-ROAD. TURN RIGHT AND FOLLOWING WINDING ROAD UP HILL FOR

RL0857'0.25 MILE TO A OFF SET CROSS ROAD, CONTINUE MAIN ROAD FOR 0.05 MILE

RL0857'TO A TRACK SIDE ROAD RIGHT. TURN RIGHT FOLLOWING WINDING TRACK

RL0857'ROAD UP HILL FOR 0.35 MILE TO THE HIGHEST PART OF HILL AND

RL0857'STATION SITE.

RL0857'

RL0857'NOTE ROCKLAND (USGS) 1939 WAS CEMENTED IN A DRILL HOLE IN OUTCROPPING

RL0857'BEDROCK.

RL0857'

RL0857'NOTE WITH A LITTLE CLEARING OR ABOUT A 10 FOOT STAND WOULD SEE THE

RL0857'LAKE AREA.

RL0857'

RL0857'AIRLINE DISTANCE AND DIRECTION FROM NEAREST TOWN--ABOUT 1/2 MILE

RL0857'SOUTHEAST OF ROCKLAND.

Edited July 14, 2004 by elcamino

[+Black Dog Trackers]

I put this PID in my handy PID lookup thingie and got a further tail-end piece of the datasheet.

 

RL0857'AIRLINE DISTANCE AND DIRECTION FROM NEAREST TOWN--ABOUT 1/2 MILE

RL0857'SOUTHEAST OF ROCKLAND.

RL0857

RL0857 STATION RECOVERY (1977)

RL0857

RL0857'RECOVERY NOTE BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1977

RL0857'SURFACE MARK REPORTED DESTROYED.

 

An interesting thing in the datasheet is this difference of opinion or something:

RL0857 HISTORY - 1977 GOOD NGS

RL0857 HISTORY - 1977 DESTROYED USGS

 

By the way, this PID is not in the Geocaching database.

[TUPPERHUNTER]

Question to the gurus: we revisited this 1892 benchmark and found a drill hole in the area where the surviving RMs pointed to:

 

By the looks of the rock with all of the cracks would this be a bad setting to mount a mark? With all of the cracks whouldn't it make it unstable?