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Marks With No Recovery Notes


Z15
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There are often discussions of marks that have not been found in many, many years.

 

I have discovered that (in my area at least) the marks were used but often no reports were ever sent in. I have found a lot of marks that have not been reported since monumented, only to find old rusted falling down sign posts and signs at the marks. In researching I found out that USGS was updating maps back in the 70's. Seems they only reported on marks they could not find or were destroyed. They also placed USGS, C&GS or NGS signs. Marks they found were not reported.

 

Also it seems that marks reported as not found are often marks that were not even searched for. I guess the field notes got misinterpreted back in the central office. Also I have found that some recent (last 20 yrs) recoveries by NGS stating MARK NOT FOUND are in error. Seems they did not want to find them it would appear because they would have had to tie into them into their levels. We recently found several that were in plain site and no one of their caliber could have missed the metal sign post. I guess that has to be expected when you have no personnel and have to rely on summer help and no time to train them.

(Been there all to many times)

 

Just wanted to share what I have encountered in over 30 yrs of using these marks.

 

So don't always believe the report, it may not be accurate

Edited by elcamino
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I can also say first hand, that I have come across markers that showed recent use but had not been reported, including one being used in a road project now !

 

This weekend, while searching for a Tri-station, locals asked me what I was doing. I explained that the station had not been reported since 1976. They assured me that Surveyors had been there just 2-3 years ago.

 

I suspect many of these stations are being used but just aren't being reported.

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Question - How frequently do each of you report your finds to the NGS?

I guess that is at least a 2 part question -

1) Do you report most benchmarks you find that have not been found in X years?

2) Do you usually do it in batches or as you go?

1) I do it as I go......I'll forget otherwise !!!!!!!!!

 

2) But I only log note worthy items (with NGS, everything goes in the Geocache web)..........Something very old, something not logged in atleast 25 years or something in a location that might be of note-worthy value.

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I log almost all with NGS if they haven't been recovered since about 1990. If the description has changed I will measure and re-describe if possible. See KW0836 for an example. I often add information if I feel it will help someone find the mark.

Interesting. You have quite a few measurements in your description. I have never been as thorough. Do you use a tape or just the GPS?

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I use a tape and a good old fashioned compass. That is the only way to get the measurements needed to help someone find the mark. I mostly use the GPS to get me by road to the mark, then the description to find it. Only where the mark is in the woods or a field do I rely more on the GPS. Scaled coordinates can be off by quite a bit, since they were just taken from map measurements, so it seems to me to be a waste to rely too much on a GPS, which also may be 30-100 feet off. If any of the features in the description are available it is much easier to take out the compass and 100' tape and go to it!

 

Edit--by the way, all those measurements aren't mine. If you look at the original description you will realize that I simply added what had changed. Also, I don't edit a lot of descriptions to that level--most are fairly accurate and I simply note that the "gas station is now a printing shop", etc.

Edited by mloser
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I log almost all with NGS if they haven't been recovered since about 1990.

Actually, Deb informed me they would like to have confirmation of a mark more frequently. It's the old adage of the newer the report, the more chance of finding it there.

 

As far as distance and direction, the posted handheld gps coordinates will get you pretty close to the mark. I figure just pacing it off and guestimating the angle from a nearby reference should put the next person practically on top of it.

 

Question: Should we give the results in English or Metric? The old data sheets are all English. New ones are Metric. Are we in the business of revising English to Metric? Does that mean we convert miles from to kilometers from? How many cars/GPSrs are set up for Metric?

Sheez, this could open a can of worms. Do it however you want!

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I say use English, 95% of those coming in contact with these marks don't use metric.

 

Here is an example of why to never trust the recovery and verify for yourself. I spotted this mark yesterday as I was driving by heading to a fishing site, it was in plain site. No witness post but the grass was mower near this home making it impossible to miss. In 1985 NGS ran levels along M-28, just 1.4 miles south of this mark. If they found it, they level crew would have had to level up to it and back down to M28. I suspose its possible they used it and it got reported wrong.

^_^:P

 

RL0966_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

RL0966_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

RL0966_STAMPING: D 138 1948

RL0966_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO

RL0966+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION

RL0966

RL0966 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

RL0966 HISTORY - 1948 MONUMENTED CGS

RL0966 HISTORY - 1985 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

RL0966

RL0966 STATION DESCRIPTION

RL0966

RL0966'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1948

RL0966'1.1 MI N FROM TROUT CREEK.

RL0966'ABOUT 1.1 MILES NORTH ALONG A GRAVEL ROAD TO MASS FROM THE POST

RL0966'OFFICE AT TROUT CREEK, ABOUT 0.45 MILE NORTH OF A CROSS ROAD,

RL0966'AT THE JUNCTION OF A ROAD WEST, 168 FEET SOUTH OF THE CENTER

RL0966'LINE OF A DRIVE TO A 1 1/2 STORY s***E FARM HOUSE, 30 FEET

RL0966'EAST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE ROAD, IN LINE WITH THE PROLONGED

RL0966'CENTER LINE OF THE ROAD WEST, 30 FEET EAST OF THE CENTER LINE

RL0966'OF THE ROAD, 32 FEET SOUT-SOUTHWEST OF A POWER POLE WITH

RL0966'TRANSFORMER, 2 FEET WEST OF A FENCE LINE, 2 FEET NORTH OF A

RL0966'WHITE WOODEN WITNESS POST, 2 FEET ABOVE THE ROAD AND SET IN THE

RL0966'TOP OF A CONCRETE POST PROJECTING 2 INCHES.

RL0966

RL0966 STATION RECOVERY (1985)

RL0966

RL0966'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1985

RL0966'MARK NOT FOUND.

Edited by elcamino
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And speaking of metric, can anyone help me find a 30 meter tape that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? Oddly enough, I can't find one at my nearest Home Cheapo!

Try here.....and for all you others, this outfit is GREAT for survey equipment.

 

Ben Meadows Company

 

www.benmeadows.com

 

800-241-6401

 

Part number 4JE-122731, 30 Meter Tape, $20.40, Fiberglass Tape in metal reel.

They have quite a variety going up from there.

Edited by Spoo
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seventhings,

Not when I am out in the field with the description in hand!

In the absence of a metric tape, I mulitply by three, remember that as the feet, then add that as number again as inches, which about the 3.3 feet per meter for converting.

Thus 6 meters becomes 18 feet plus 18 inches, which is 19 feet 6 inches. The conversion is 19 feet 8.2 inches, so until I get to much longer distances I can at least come close enough to poke around.

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RL0966'LINE OF A DRIVE TO A 1 1/2 STORY s***E FARM HOUSE, 30 FEET.

Did you do the editing? The first part is pronounced "she" and the latter part is as in "light" without the "l".

"She-ight"

:unsure:

No, the site did that as there is a typo which in which it should read a "white farm house, Can you see what a S makes of the first part of word. They imply filters to remove objectionable words.

Edited by elcamino
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Here is another one that I found yesterday with a very old sign post.

17299111-49d9-487e-9807-917c29bcb75a.jpg

2d32c326-1964-408f-9151-3cf9dadfb032.jpg

 

RL0784_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

RL0784_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

RL0784_STAMPING: Q 138 1948

RL0784_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO

RL0784+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION

RL0784

RL0784 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

RL0784 HISTORY - 1948 MONUMENTED CGS

RL0784 HISTORY - 20010615 MARK NOT FOUND USPSQD

 

Don't see how the USPSQD missed it, was in plain sight. More proof they should not even be allowed to report them as not found as almost all they can't find I find with ease.

Edited by elcamino
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