Hidden airtags or similar built into a cache container?

[+user13371]

What would you think about an airtag or similar device built in and concealed in a cache container? Set up the right way you could  get a ping whenever someone with an iDevice came near your cache.  And you might be able to recover the container if it went missing.

If I was going to do something like that, I wouldn't use a genuine AppleAir Tag though.  There are less expensive tags available that work with Apple's "Find My" network.  And at least a few of them are very easy to disable the beeper on them - I have one one hidden on each of my bicycles (and two on the most expensive one).

[+Hügh]

15 minutes ago, user13371 said:

Set up the right way you could  get a ping whenever someone with an iDevice came near your cache.  And you might be able to recover the container if it went missing.

 

Well, a related topic:

 

Quote

Respect privacy

Placement of closed-circuit television (CCTV) or surveillance cameras for the purpose of surveillance or monitoring the cache is not allowed.

 

(https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=128&pgid=78)

 

So I would not do this.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Hügh

[+arisoft]

I don't understand how this relates to privacy? Another case was a TB with build in tracker, but this case it is different - unless someone is planning to steal the cache.

Edited May 24, 2023 by arisoft

[+user13371]

The privacy concern might be a stretch but I can see some people thinking of it that way, that's why I asked.

An airtag is not a camera of any sort.  It does not record anything or report the identity of any compatibile devices (or people carrying them) nearby.  It simply pings the tag's owner with its location. You can also set it so it won't report anything at all unless it gets moved - and even then it won't identify who moved it, just where it is each time a compatible iDevice is within range.  That's pretty much how my bike trackers are set up - no messaging at all if they're at my house, in the parking garage at work, or with me.  Only if they move after I've locked them up somewhere.

Would that kind of setup ease privacy conerns?

Edited May 24, 2023 by user13371
clarifications & fixing typos

[+Hügh]

It is the "get a ping whenever someone with an iDevice came near your cache" that I see as a privacy concern. I don't really care that they don't contain a camera, they're still tracking visits to the cache in a way that I cannot opt-out of: the ping is entirely automated. This feels invasive.

[+arisoft]

30 minutes ago, user13371 said:

Would that kind of setup ease privacy conerns?

 

Add transponder attribute in the description. You can also write in the description that the cache contains airtag transponder and players may use it to locate the cache.

 

1 minute ago, Hügh said:

the ping is entirely automated

 

It is your phone pinging, not the airtag. Do you know how many pings your phone makes every day? Should you be worried about them?

 

5 minutes ago, Hügh said:

I cannot opt-out

 

You can opt-out: Settings > {Your Name} > Find My > Find My iPhone > Find My network > On|Off.

 

[+Hügh]

5 minutes ago, arisoft said:

It is your phone pinging, not the airtag. Do you know how many pings your phone makes every day? Should you be worried about them?

 

It is a ping to the cache owner (or owner of the Airtag):

 

Set up the right way you could  get a ping whenever someone with an iDevice came near your cache.

 

I think it is creepy for them to receive a ping the exact moment someone approaches the cache site. Why do they want to know that?

 

6 minutes ago, arisoft said:

You can opt-out

 

I cannot opt-out... of this one Airtag.

[+user13371]

Hugh, as I said you could also configure it NOT to send a notification unless someone moved the cache - is that any better for this purpose?

For all other purposes though, not just geocaching - if you're carrying any cellular connected Apple devices like an iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch - your devices' locations are loigged every time you're within range of anyone's airtag. If you live, commute, and work in a metro area that's likely dozens or even hunreds of times a day.  And it's usually nothing to worry about because none of those logged events can be related directly back to your or your device.  Only "An iPhone was within range of this tag at this location at this time."
 

Edited May 24, 2023 by user13371

[+Hügh]

19 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Do you know how many pings your phone makes every day? Should you be worried about them?

 

I'll add: my phone does indeed ping many websites and servers while I use it. Key difference; these are by apps I have manually installed; ie. I have consented to their pings.

 

This cache owner wants to hide an Airtag within their cache so that they can receive pings when it is approached. But with it being hidden ("concealed") I will never learn of this tracking. That is weird.

 

Note that I am not opposed to my phone being using to track lost items via Airtags. It is only because this CO has confessed to (what I see as) strange motivations that I am uncomfortable.

 

3 minutes ago, user13371 said:

Hugh, as I said you could also configure it NOT to send a notification unless someone moved the cache - is that any better for this purpose?

 

If it definitely isn't going to be sending a ping, sure. But ask your local Reviewer Team and HQ Support.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Hügh

[+user13371]

Sure, I can turn off that kind of tracking, because I don't want to have anyone be uncomfortable with it.  You're okay with the idea of being able to know if a cache has been moved?

But - not trying to be arhgumentative here, just trying to understand WHY either might make you uncomfortable  Can you put a finer point on why it bothers you?  Let me explain my original thinking. If I hide a cache, I want people to log their finds, and also their DNFs if they feel like it. I'd also like to know if the area is getting more traffic than I expected or is reflected in the logs - it might help me add hints if necessary,, maybe add a "watch out for muggles" note to the description, or even ove it myself to a less trafficed spot.   An airtag seemed a pretty easy way to do that - and harmless as it doesn't identify WHO is near the cache.

[+thebruce0]

Apart from the tag-in-geocache idea, it could now be used as a sort of Beacon because it can contain additional information that anyone with a smartphone can read - I do believe Android can also read the details when close by, though the find-my ping isn't automated with android.

 

Just like a beacon you can add a tag in the forest, and when close enough, read the information for the next stage. 

 

As for pinging privacy, anyone hiking a trail nearby with an iOS device would also set off pings to the owner (if not disabled by the owner). And any pings are entirely anonymous so there's no way to know "It's a geocacher!" for certain, let alone who.  The privacy concerns, IMO, are minimal at worst. 

 

Personally I'd find more value in it as a smartphone agnostic "Beacon" tool than something inside the geocache to track how many visits to it itself... but that's me

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Hügh said:

Note that I am not opposed to my phone being using to track lost items via Airtags. It is only because this CO has confessed to (what I see as) strange motivations that I am uncomfortable.

 

So, your talk about privacy was misleading. You are affraid of strange motivations. Let's compare this airtag with a logbook. Logbook reveals your private data. Logbook is tracking you not the airtag.

 

2 hours ago, Hügh said:

I cannot opt-out... of this one Airtag.

 

You should opt-out all of them because there are huge number of airtag owners with more strange motivations compared to the OP. For example, a business owner may be tracking you when you enter the shop and can count how many times you have visited - spooky - isn't it?

 

[+Hügh]

35 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Let's compare this airtag with a logbook. Logbook reveals your private data. Logbook is tracking you not the airtag.

 

I'm not sure what private data the logbook is revealing; the logbook lets me choose whether or not I want to sign it, so by signing it, data (time? location?) becomes public.

 

35 minutes ago, arisoft said:

You should opt-out all of them because there are huge number of airtag owners with more strange motivations compared to the OP. For example, a business owner may be tracking you when you enter the shop and can count how many times you have visited - spooky - isn't it?

 

Creepy, sure. But I do not have the time or the energy to panic about this. In my eyes the benefits of keeping the system on outweigh the risks.

 

If a business owner came and asked me "What would you think about an airtag or similar device built in and concealed in a cache container my restaurant?" I would give them the same opinion I have given here: it's weird, please don't do it. Of course, the businesses that are choosing to be creepy would probably never listen to my opinions the way @user13371 is here.

 

1 hour ago, user13371 said:

But - not trying to be arhgumentative here, just trying to understand WHY either might make you uncomfortable  Can you put a finer point on why it bothers you?

 

What creeps me out is that I don't know that I am being tracked -- you used the word "concealed" to describe the placement of the Airtag in your previous post. I don't know that you've been pinged about my presence. With all the bad press (stalkers, etc.) Airtags got last year, I can only help but be uncomfortable. Put yourself in the position of a finder who discovers this Airtag with no other context (ie. this Forum post): how would they feel? Would they know what it is? Would they know what it is being used for?

 

Now, after having read the your post describing your intents with the data, I am more comfortable: Facebook probably knows far more about me despite the fact that I don't have an account with them. But as above, Facebook would never ask me of my opinion on the matter, so I am simply using this conversation to advocate for privacy opinions that would otherwise probably never be read by anyone.

[+arisoft]

7 hours ago, Hügh said:

Creepy, sure. But I do not have the time or the energy to panic about this. In my eyes the benefits of keeping the system on outweigh the risks.

 

What makes you think that it is more beneficial for you to allow tracking in your phone instead of turn off the feature that clearly bothers you?