Puzzle cache found without solving puzzle

[+Team DEMP]

You contradicted yourself by telling me what I should do, but said that I shouldn't to people what to do. Odd, but I'm OK with it, since I'm not telling anyone what to do.

 

The post of mine you quoted only asked a question. I'm pretty good at questions. Here's another one:

 

Do you realize geotagged photos have been around since at least 2002 (according to Wikipedia) And the game survived in spite of tagged photos for the last fifteen years ?

 

You took a response and assumed it was about you. Bad assumption.

 

Do you realize geotagged photos have been around since at least 2002 (according to Wikipedia) And the game survived in spite of tagged photos for the last fifteen years ?

 

You geotag question was commented on already while I was outside clearing the snow. I'm glad the Dr didn't tell my dad that he survived 79 years without a new hip so why are you asking to relieve the pain now? Just live it like you have been.

[ohgood]

 

Do you realize geotagged photos have been around since at least 2002 (according to Wikipedia)

 

1) Do you have any idea how many photos uploaded to cache pages back then were geotagged and how many among those were unintentionally geotagged?

 

2) I have never encountered a problem with geotagged photos at my caches in the first couple of years. The advent of smartphones (and in particular

the Iphone) has changed a lot.

 

3) when I started to cache I did not even own a digital camera and had to wait for photos to get developed to be able to scan them.

 

1 there is no way for me to know that figure, buy i would imagine with the last decade and a half, a bunch.

 

2 is it a widespread problem? i googled for complaints about geotags, but couldn't find anything pertaining to caches.

 

3 i remember those days before digital stuff. man, it's so easy now :-)

[ohgood]

You contradicted yourself by telling me what I should do, but said that I shouldn't to people what to do. Odd, but I'm OK with it, since I'm not telling anyone what to do.

 

The post of mine you quoted only asked a question. I'm pretty good at questions. Here's another one:

 

Do you realize geotagged photos have been around since at least 2002 (according to Wikipedia) And the game survived in spite of tagged photos for the last fifteen years ?

 

You took a response and assumed it was about you. Bad assumption.

 

Do you realize geotagged photos have been around since at least 2002 (according to Wikipedia) And the game survived in spite of tagged photos for the last fifteen years ?

 

You geotag question was commented on already while I was outside clearing the snow. I'm glad the Dr didn't tell my dad that he survived 79 years without a new hip so why are you asking to relieve the pain now? Just live it like you have been.

 

in your post number 5635191, you quoted me. if you did mean someone else, i apologize, it sure looked like you were replying to me ?

 

 

getting back on track now, and still speaking to you, has geotagged photos been a big issue for the fifteen years ? it seems like if it were, fifteen years us long enough to start editing people's posts, even at gs's pace.

[+Team DEMP]

2 is it a widespread problem? i googled for complaints about geotags, but couldn't find anything pertaining to caches.

 

Here's some, though not all "complaints" or specific to lat/long:

 

https://www.google.c...Groundspeak.com

 

There's a thread from 2010 describing the same concern and, not unexpected, a response saying "if most people are unaware, is it really a problem"?

 

There's a thread from 2011 indicating location data is being stripped from uploaded photos when the site resized them

That same thread multiple folks posted they used the EXIF location data in uploaded find logs to solve the puzzle and find the cache.

 

Lets not pretend the issue doesn't exist.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Team DEMP

[+kunarion]

There's a thread from 2011 indicating location data is being stripped from uploaded photos when the site resized them

That same thread multiple folks posted they used the EXIF location data in uploaded find logs to solve the puzzle and find the cache.

I remember those threads! It seems that the EXIF info would remain or vanish upon upload (and its automatic resize), as GS changed servers over the years. It's back on again.

[+redsox_mark]

Four pages of posts, which from my count are mostly related to two general points:

 

1. Why should a CO care if their puzzle is spoiled in this way, and if they care they are various things - controlling, nasty, etc.

 

2. Why even discuss it, when the game as survived to this point in spite of this issue. I.e. it's not worth discussing, but it is worth arguing about if it is worth discussing.

 

Putting all the noise aside, I found the OP useful. I now know this can happen. I am now monitoring photos on my puzzles. Not because I'm nasty or controlling or any of those things. I just don't want the answer posted on the cache page (even in a somewhat hidden form).

 

I am also now more careful to check any photos I post near GZ on puzzles I've found don't have location data.

 

Lastly, I think it would be a good enhancement to have Groundspeak strip off the data for photos posted on logs by other than the CO. But accept it isn't high priority, so may not get done.

[+Team Microdot]

Four pages of posts, which from my count are mostly related to two general points:

 

1. Why should a CO care if their puzzle is spoiled in this way, and if they care they are various things - controlling, nasty, etc.

 

2. Why even discuss it, when the game as survived to this point in spite of this issue. I.e. it's not worth discussing, but it is worth arguing about if it is worth discussing.

 

Putting all the noise aside, I found the OP useful. I now know this can happen. I am now monitoring photos on my puzzles. Not because I'm nasty or controlling or any of those things. I just don't want the answer posted on the cache page (even in a somewhat hidden form).

 

I am also now more careful to check any photos I post near GZ on puzzles I've found don't have location data.

 

Lastly, I think it would be a good enhancement to have Groundspeak strip off the data for photos posted on logs by other than the CO. But accept it isn't high priority, so may not get done.

 

Nicely summarised

[+redsox_mark]

I found several threads on this subject on the Website forum, I bumped this one

[+Team Microdot]

I found several threads on this subject on the Website forum, I bumped this one

 

For what purpose?

[+redsox_mark]

I found several threads on this subject on the Website forum, I bumped this one

 

For what purpose?

 

I thought that forum was more likely to result in a feature being considered by Groundspeak.

[+Team Microdot]

I found several threads on this subject on the Website forum, I bumped this one

 

For what purpose?

 

I thought that forum was more likely to result in a feature being considered by Groundspeak.

 

Perhaps - but I wouldn't want it to dilute the discussion here

[cezanne]

I found several threads on this subject on the Website forum, I bumped this one

 

Good luck. I have been aware of these and related threads but as none of them led to any result and the same happened to a lot of other feature discussions, I do not have any hope any longer that it makes a difference whether or not a feature suggestion is posted in the website forum.

[ohgood]

2 is it a widespread problem? i googled for complaints about geotags, but couldn't find anything pertaining to caches.

 

Here's some, though not all "complaints" or specific to lat/long:

 

https://www.google.c...Groundspeak.com

 

There's a thread from 2010 describing the same concern and, not unexpected, a response saying "if most people are unaware, is it really a problem"?

 

There's a thread from 2011 indicating location data is being stripped from uploaded photos when the site resized them

That same thread multiple folks posted they used the EXIF location data in uploaded find logs to solve the puzzle and find the cache.

 

Lets not pretend the issue doesn't exist.

 

So, were you speaking to someone else in post 5635191 ? You didn't clarify who you were speaking to yet?

 

As far as "pretending" there is an issue or not, I see the other threads died out with what looks like a big "meh"from the people involved...

 

Which leads to me repeating the question from earlier:

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

 

If you don't want to answer that, I understand, but at this point you're just avoiding real discussion. :-)

Edited February 10, 2017 by ohgood

[+Team Microdot]

Which leads to me repeating the question from earlier:

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

 

If you don't want to answer that, I understand, but at this point you're just avoiding real discussion. :-)

 

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't discuss issues which have impacts below a certain threshold?

 

If so, who sets the theshold and what is it and how do we measure it?

[+Team DEMP]

in your post number 5635191, you quoted me. if you did mean someone else, i apologize, it sure looked like you were replying to me ?

 

You stated in the quoted post "it doesn't appear that anyone has stopped and thought for a second" and my follow-up generically described those that responded. Your last comment to me on this reply indicated I specifically described you. Regardless, none of it is relevant to the actual topic of the thread.

 

getting back on track now, and still speaking to you, has geotagged photos been a big issue for the fifteen years ? it seems like if it were, fifteen years us long enough to start editing people's posts, even at gs's pace.

 

This has been responded to by me and others throughout the thread when it has been brought up. Yes, it's a problem. I'm not sure how anyone says it's a "big issue" or why that matters unless you indicate that displaying the final coords of a puzzle when someone logs a find is acceptable behavior no different then adding the logs in the text of their found log.

 

Is a "big issue" one that could impact every single cacher? Is a "big issue" one that could impact every single puzzle cache posted?

Edited February 10, 2017 by Team DEMP

[ohgood]

Which leads to me repeating the question from earlier:

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

 

If you don't want to answer that, I understand, but at this point you're just avoiding real discussion. :-)

 

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't discuss issues which have impacts below a certain threshold?

 

If so, who sets the theshold and what is it and how do we measure it?

 

I'm only trying to get your opinion. :-)

 

Like i said, if your prefer not to answer me, or share it, that's cool. :-)

[+Team Microdot]

Which leads to me repeating the question from earlier:

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

 

If you don't want to answer that, I understand, but at this point you're just avoiding real discussion. :-)

 

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't discuss issues which have impacts below a certain threshold?

 

If so, who sets the theshold and what is it and how do we measure it?

 

I'm only trying to get your opinion. :-)

 

Like i said, if your prefer not to answer me, or share it, that's cool. :-)

 

OK - so you have nothing of value to bring to the thread - glad we cleared that up.

[ohgood]

...

 

Is a "big issue" one that could impact every single cacher? Is a "big issue" one that could impact every single puzzle cache posted?

 

Man getting questions answered here is line pulling teeth after slapping someones manma ! lol so defensive, so skittish!

 

I'll answer yours though, even though it sounds rhetorical:

 

big issue: server unavailable, for a week or three

 

medium issue: server load too heavy to load for a few hours

 

insignificant issue: once every three or four years, someone says the site is slow

 

does that sound about right to you ?

[ohgood]

Which leads to me repeating the question from earlier:

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

 

If you don't want to answer that, I understand, but at this point you're just avoiding real discussion. :-)

 

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't discuss issues which have impacts below a certain threshold?

 

If so, who sets the theshold and what is it and how do we measure it?

 

I'm only trying to get your opinion. :-)

 

Like i said, if your prefer not to answer me, or share it, that's cool. :-)

 

OK - so you have nothing of value to bring to the thread - glad we cleared that up.

 

there's plenty to add, when people are polite and answer questions, post opinions, and aren't rude. you're being rude. I'm attempting to gain insight. :-)

[+JL_HSTRE]

I decided to explore local puzzle caches, especially the more difficult ones (which tend to end up on my Ignore List), and see how useful log photo EXIF info actually is in my area. My result: not very helpful.

 

Many of the puzzles had no photos at all despite being around for several years. Many of those with photos either had no EXIF data or had EXIF data that didn't include GPS data. One cacher who is a puzzlehound and who always posts a log photo with their find uses their digital camera, not a smartphone, to take the photo. The GPS coords wasn't especially accurate. For example, one photo's coords put me in the middle of a wide street near an intersection. Only because of the hint and the nature of the area could the actual location of the cache be determined. For a puzzle in the woods, on a small street with woods or a long stretch of guardrail on both sides, and similar situations the soft nature of the coords may still require a lengthy search whereas solving the puzzle to get better coords. Some finders undoubtedly don't take their photo right at GZ either. There were some other puzzles that I had already solved through the expected method because they simply weren't especially difficult puzzles. I was able to learn the location of a whole 3 puzzles that I would not have otherwise found, out of about 30 I looked at (excluding ones I had already found).

 

This is just one area without using an scientific sampling so your results may vary, but my conclusion is that the EXIF exploit is a fairly minor issue.

[+egroeg]

I also became curious about how widespread this problem might be, so I looked at the photos posted with any logs from my 6 puzzle caches. I ran these puzzles through an on-line EXIF checker (after doing a successful test of the checker with a photo that I knew had coords attached).

With the 91 logs dating back to 2010, 10 photos had been attached, 3 of which were at the cache site. None of the photos had any coord data.

 

I don't claim that this is representative of all photos at other puzzle cache finals - obviously, this thread started because it HAD happened. I will in the future check all photos posted to my caches, and if I find coord data, I will work with the finder to delete the photos, but NOT the log.

[+bflentje]

I also became curious about how widespread this problem might be, so I looked at the photos posted with any logs from my 6 puzzle caches. I ran these puzzles through an on-line EXIF checker (after doing a successful test of the checker with a photo that I knew had coords attached).

With the 91 logs dating back to 2010, 10 photos had been attached, 3 of which were at the cache site. None of the photos had any coord data.

 

I don't claim that this is representative of all photos at other puzzle cache finals - obviously, this thread started because it HAD happened. I will in the future check all photos posted to my caches, and if I find coord data, I will work with the finder to delete the photos, but NOT the log.

 

I agree, it is not very widespread and over-rated as an issue. I couldn't find any of my own puzzle, multi or Wherigo related caches with exif spoilers. But I admit that I once logged an 18-stage multicache by using embedded exif data, having never visited more than two of the actual "required" stages. But I admit up front to being deplorable so it's not possible for me to be judged any further.

[+dprovan]

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

No, it's not a big issue. It had almost no impact until cameras started to routinely have GPS capabilities, which I'd say happened about 5 years ago. Since then, my guess is that it's been a minor problem that comes up now and then.

 

Happy? Good. Now can we get back to discussing fixing it?

[cezanne]

I agree, it is not very widespread and over-rated as an issue. I couldn't find any of my own puzzle, multi or Wherigo related caches with exif spoilers.

 

Maybe it's a regional thing. It happened to me several times (even though I do not check the uploaded photos systematically and regularly) and I know of many other cache owners who have the same experience which is not surprising as there as the majority of cachers who uploads geotagged photos from their smartphones is not aware of that they upload coordinate data.

[+Team Microdot]

you're being rude.

 

I always try to be appropriately polite.

[+JohnCNA]

 

Can stand alone GPS units handle navigating to geotagged photos?

 

Yes, they can.

[+barefootjeff]

Reading this thread, something has just clicked for me. Last year, one of my new caches, a high D/T multi, had its first find, with the FTF posting a photo of an interesting thing he saw near GZ. About a month later someone started brute-forcing the checker, with all the digits correct except the last one of both south and east, making it 100 possible combinations they were trying. It took them two weeks but eventually they cracked it. I was laughing because visiting the waypoints to find all the digits only required a couple of short train trips whereas reaching the final was a pretty tough hike and bush-bash.

 

At the time I'd just assumed they'd made a stab at where the final might be from satellite images, given that the description mentions that it's near a cliff, but I just checked and, sure enough, that photo posted by the FTF has coordinates embedded in it.

 

I won't bother deleting the photo since, if someone wants to go to all that effort instead of doing the fun bit of the cache, that's no skin off my nose and it doesn't detract from the enjoyment others have had from the cache (9 FPs from 13 finds). I will let the FTF know that his photos have the coordinates in them, though, as he's probably not aware of it.

[+JL_HSTRE]

About a month later someone started brute-forcing the checker, with all the digits correct except the last one of both south and east, making it 100 possible combinations they were trying. It took them two weeks but eventually they cracked it.

 

That is some astonishing patience and/or determination.

[+barefootjeff]

About a month later someone started brute-forcing the checker, with all the digits correct except the last one of both south and east, making it 100 possible combinations they were trying. It took them two weeks but eventually they cracked it.

 

That is some astonishing patience and/or determination.

It's all there in the checker logs. It took them 110 attempts before they struck gold so they must have doubled up a few times, and with the checker only allowing ten attempts at a time they kept coming back to it over the course of a couple of weeks. I had to laugh as it would've been so much easier just to visit the waypoints.

[ohgood]

Do you think this is a problem that has had a large impact over the last fifteen years or so ?

No, it's not a big issue. It had almost no impact until cameras started to routinely have GPS capabilities, which I'd say happened about 5 years ago. Since then, my guess is that it's been a minor problem that comes up now and then.

 

Happy? Good. Now can we get back to discussing fixing it?

 

Thanks! I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

 

Would you like to have a kill switch for all tagged photos, or just a switch for each cache?

[cezanne]

I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

 

Sorry, I do not regard using exif data as another tool to avoid walking say 300km.

[ohgood]

I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

 

Sorry, I do not regard using exif data as another tool to avoid walking say 300km.

 

good point, and opinion !

 

i

I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

 

Sorry, I do not regard using exif data as another tool to avoid walking say 300km.

 

thanks for the opinion, and that is a good point you made.

 

let me illustrate something....

 

if you (or i) were to just buy a GPS, pick a puzzle/cache from its pre loaded list 186 miles away, and started walking, we would probably be very disappointed. reasons like the cache being no longer active (archived), an out of date description/location/clue, closed off land access, or missing second stage, would be bad.

 

thankfully we have additional tools like cars/motorcycles/quads/boats/planes/bikes/trains to transport us... updated info and logs from previous finders... phone a friend... private messages to the owner... Google for riddles/maths/trivia... satellite imagery... and of course, the last known date the puzzle/multi was found.

 

i would definitely choose to use those tools before heading out on a long hike.

 

i would also check the weather, trail closures, river levels, and similar stuff in the area.

 

planning a 186 mile hike would be an undertaking by itself. executing the hike, also an awesome an experience!

 

if someone chose to use a helicopter to find each stage, that would be a fairly exclusive way to skip the walking, but still just another tool.

 

again, if the cache owner wants to delete extra clues, or place the cache where normal tools like helicopters /cars / geotagged photos won't help, that's fine by me. no issue at all. the blanket idea that all photos should be stripped though, just seems like a really bad idea.

 

hope I've made a good counter point to yours. :-)

[cezanne]

again, if the cache owner wants to delete extra clues

 

That does not help when the info is already out there.

 

As the rest of your post is regarded, I cannot see any convincing argument for geotagged photos. Most long distance hiking caches I'm aware of have a known start and end point - you can plan your route but of course you do not know in advance exactly where the container is hidden. Almost all hiders of such caches will help those who really need information for planning their tour - those who just visit the final are not interested into the journey at all but just in the "+1" and the prestige of having logged certain caches.

 

Using vehicles to shortcut the travel is up to the finders but avoiding visiting the stages at all, is not what is in the spirit of a multi cache. If someone does not like caches with multiple stages, they can skip them - there are not so many of them anyhow and even less really long ones.

Edited February 13, 2017 by cezanne

[+bflentje]

I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

 

Sorry, I do not regard using exif data as another tool to avoid walking say 300km.

 

300km? That's 186 miles. I think I'd find any way possible to try and avoid hiking 186 miles

[ohgood]

again, if the cache owner wants to delete extra clues

 

1) That does not help when the info is already out there.

 

2) As the rest of your post is regarded, I cannot see any convincing argument for geotagged photos. Most long distance hiking caches I'm aware of have a known start and end point - you can plan your route but of course you do not know in advance exactly where the container is hidden. Almost all hiders of such caches will help those who really need information for planning their tour -

 

3) those who just visit the final are not interested into the journey at all but

 

4) just in the "+1" and the prestige of having logged certain caches.

 

Using vehicles to shortcut the travel is up to the finders but avoiding visiting the stages at all, is not what is in the spirit of a multi cache.

 

5) If someone does not like caches with multiple stages, they can skip them - there are not so many of them anyhow and even less really long ones.

 

1) fair enough, i guess a puzzle/multi owner would have to check once week or so, if they were concerned at all about people skipping steps.

 

2) fair enough again, i just see asking for help from the owner as another tool. I've only done that once, and since then lost interest in that tool, and not applied the info i gained. just my opinion, not really relevant i guess.

 

3) i think that's up to each person, not the cache owner. the only rule that applies so far is "sign the log", i think. I'm really not much of a rules person, but i know a LOT of people are, and LIVE for more rules :-)

 

4) lol i had no idea, that's funny, but i guess people like badges and stuff.

 

5) none of my business, i figure people can pick and choose whichever type they want to. as long as they aren't destroying stuff , carry on.

 

thanks for the input.

 

w if you were given the option, would you prefer a kill switch for all images, all geotagged images, or only images relating to puzzle/multi ? maybe some variation of the above?

 

thanks again for real discussion :-)

Edited February 13, 2017 by ohgood

[+dprovan]

Thanks! I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

No one's saying it's the end of the world, they're just saying it's annoying and should be fixed.

 

Would you like to have a kill switch for all tagged photos, or just a switch for each cache?

Me? I felt like you were trying to dismiss the concerns without allowing them to be discussed, but I don't myself share those concerns. I don't think errant GPS tagging is a big deal, and I think it would be best handled by education. Yes, it could be annoying to have a puzzle spoiled like this and have to explain to the picture's poster what they did wrong, but I don't see it as such a big deal it must be prevented at all costs.

 

But, on the other hand, I also don't think it would be that big a deal if EXIF information was routinely scraped when pictures are posted if GS decided that would be better.

[ohgood]

Thanks! I think it's mostly an issue when people don't realize it's just another tool , not the end of the world.

No one's saying it's the end of the world, they're just saying it's annoying and 1) should be fixed.

Would you like to have a kill switch for all tagged photos, or just a switch for each cache?

Me? I felt like 2) you were trying to dismiss the concerns

3) without allowing them to be discussed, but I don't myself share those concerns. I don't think errant GPS tagging is a big deal, and I think it would be best handled by education.

 

4) Yes, it could be annoying to have a puzzle spoiled like this and have to explain to the picture's poster what they did wrong, but I don't see it as such a big deal it must be prevented at all costs.

 

But, on the other hand, 5) I also don't think it would be that big a deal if EXIF information was routinely scraped when pictures are posted if GS decided that would be better.

 

1) which is why I asked which method (or fill in the blank with your own) you prefered.

 

2) absolutely ! when I checked the history of geotagged photos vs geocaching topics, i found it was a non issue, so far, and asked for opinions. because the geocaching community is SOOOO sensetive, and prone to getting feelings hurt instead of discussing things, it got lost in the shuffle.

 

3) the moderators like to delete posts, i do not. i'm asking for opinions, and asking questions. more discussion is what it needs. so far all i've seen is 'the sky is falling!' instead of actual examples. :-)

 

4) nothing is spoiled. the trail is still there (or not), the cache is still there. i bet we would find a LOT more phone-a-friends being used to 'cheat' than tagged photos, if we compared them over the last 15 years. let's not forget about members (gasp, even premiums!) sharing waypoints for finals. yep.

 

5) i uploaded pictures of our short hike yesterday. they are geotagged. if anyone wanted to choose between just opening a pill bottle vs seeing a waterfall, they can compare distances between photos and decide which is more worthy. or both. or neither. with that information, more hikes can happen, more discoveries, more fun. without that info, it's just another park-n-grab. stripping the geodata won't benefit anything. it's just a knee-jerk reaction to a non-existant (my opinion!) problem.

 

:-)

[ohgood]

 

Can stand alone GPS units handle navigating to geotagged photos?

 

Yes, they can.

 

took a little googling but i found a video that shows how. thanks !

 

[+Team Microdot]

with that information, more hikes can happen, more discoveries, more fun.

 

Those hikes can't happen without that information?

[+SeattleWayne]

I solved a puzzle cache by reading previous logs and going to the area only to find an obvious spot where the cache could be and there it was. A find is a find.

[ohgood]

with that information, more hikes can happen, more discoveries, more fun.

 

Those hikes can't happen without that information?

 

we could just say "there's a trail down there" and leave it at that. don't even name it. wouldn't be very attractive, but hey, why make it easy for people to decide if it's what they are after.

 

see the post above this one. I've also found caches without even looking for them. even the final stages of multis. it's just another find no matter how it was found.

[+Team Microdot]

with that information, more hikes can happen, more discoveries, more fun.

 

Those hikes can't happen without that information?

 

we could just say "there's a trail down there" and leave it at that. don't even name it. wouldn't be very attractive, but hey, why make it easy for people to decide if it's what they are after.

 

But those hikes can definitely take place without that information.

 

see the post above this one. I've also found caches without even looking for them. even the final stages of multis. it's just another find no matter how it was found.

 

It may not matter to you. It may matter to other people. Different strokes for different folks.