Groundspeak's non-premium approach is dead wrong to get new people interested.

[+niraD]

Still, I find that I am increasingly dismayed at the way that non-premium members are being vilified by cache owners and here in the forum. Some people just need more time to realize the value of premium membership, others find that they just don't need it because they don't cache that often, and yet others just don't want to spend the money for whatever reason. There is no need to treat these geocachers so poorly.

I see little vilification of basic members per se.

 

What I see is a general dislike for "muggles with apps", who don't really understand how geocaching is supposed to work, and who therefore cause problems for cache owners. Unfortunately, it's hard to exclude "muggles with apps" without also excluding sincere basic members.

[+narcissa]

Still, I find that I am increasingly dismayed at the way that non-premium members are being vilified by cache owners and here in the forum. Some people just need more time to realize the value of premium membership, others find that they just don't need it because they don't cache that often, and yet others just don't want to spend the money for whatever reason. There is no need to treat these geocachers so poorly.

I see little vilification of basic members per se.

 

What I see is a general dislike for "muggles with apps", who don't really understand how geocaching is supposed to work, and who therefore cause problems for cache owners. Unfortunately, it's hard to exclude "muggles with apps" without also excluding sincere basic members.

 

Yes, we all dislike "muggles with apps," but that's not who this "I spend more on toilet paper than premium membership" kind of shaming is aimed at. When someone writes a lengthy diatribe in their cache page shouting at people for not buying premium memberships, they're not targeting muggles with apps.

 

People can set their caches to PMO without adding the derogatory comments.

[+niraD]

Yes, we all dislike "muggles with apps," but that's not who this "I spend more on toilet paper than premium membership" kind of shaming is aimed at. When someone writes a lengthy diatribe in their cache page shouting at people for not buying premium memberships, they're not targeting muggles with apps.

 

People can set their caches to PMO without adding the derogatory comments.

Well, on the plus side, such diatribes in PMO cache descriptions will be invisible to basic members (and non-members). Unless a premium member happens to show it to them, of course. But premium members wouldn't be that rude, would they? Oh... wait...

[+narcissa]

Yes, we all dislike "muggles with apps," but that's not who this "I spend more on toilet paper than premium membership" kind of shaming is aimed at. When someone writes a lengthy diatribe in their cache page shouting at people for not buying premium memberships, they're not targeting muggles with apps.

 

People can set their caches to PMO without adding the derogatory comments.

Well, on the plus side, such diatribes in PMO cache descriptions will be invisible to basic members (and non-members). Unless a premium member happens to show it to them, of course. But premium members wouldn't be that rude, would they? Oh... wait...

 

The only qualification for premium membership is $30US. That's no guarantee of good character.

[cezanne]

 

What I see is a general dislike for "muggles with apps", who don't really understand how geocaching is supposed to work, and who therefore cause problems for cache owners.

 

I could list at least as many "muggles with apps" who are PMs than very experienced basic members (either from the beginning or since a while). Paying a fee does not mean that one has a understanding of how geocaching is supposed to work.

[+thebruce0]

Here's the thing:

There are "app-users" who are both paying and non-paying, who are both skilled geocachers and unskilled geocachers.

There are handheld users who are both paying and non-paying, who are both skilled geocachers and unskilled geocachers.

The problem is labeling any group composed of multiple labels as good or bad.

The biggest "issues" appear to come more recently from unskilled non-paying "app-users".

 

"App-users" themselves - not the problem.

Non-paying members themselves - not the problem.

Unskilled handheld users - could be a problem (as with any unskilled user who can learn, of course), but practically speaking they have more hurdles to be more prominent in the concerns they present due to the device, because it's the "apps" that make it easier for issues to arise.

 

Anyone who starts out is unskilled. It's a learning process. However it's smartphone apps that have made it easier for the unskilled to present themselves more obviously and controversially as unskilled; and therein is the biggest concern/gripe.

 

Buying a PM won't change that, but it's certainly a big step towards rectifying the problem, filtering out unskilled (I'd say there are more skilled paying members than unskilled paying members), and so "unskilled paying app-users" aren't as significant a problem group as "unskilled non-paying app-users".

 

We as a community just need to help anyone unskilled learn what geocaching is about, regardless of their device, and show what generally accepted 'good etiquette' is. Then hopefully, whether app-users or not, they'll desire a PM. But either way, they'll ideally cease to be a part of the problem-group so often griped about.

[cezanne]

We as a community just need to help anyone unskilled learn what geocaching is about, regardless of their device, and show what generally accepted 'good etiquette' is. Then hopefully, whether app-users or not, they'll desire a PM.

 

I regard it as very unfortunate that you end one sentence with good etiquette and then continue with your next sentence about the desire to be a PM. That's not an etiquette question at all.

 

I also do not think that what needs to come first is the desire to inform oneself about geocaching. Without the desire neither any offered help nor the payment of a fee will help.

 

While we all started as unskilled geocachers, I have first read all I could find and that makes an essential difference to me to the modern approach of just playing around which of course is not strictly restricted to inexperienced app cachers but more common among that group (it's like trying a game on their mobile phones - they will typically not first read about the game).

[+thebruce0]

We as a community just need to help anyone unskilled learn what geocaching is about, regardless of their device, and show what generally accepted 'good etiquette' is. Then hopefully, whether app-users or not, they'll desire a PM.

 

I regard it as very unfortunate that you end one sentence with good etiquette and then continue with your next sentence about the desire to be a PM. That's not an etiquette question at all.

I specifically implied that being PM has nothing to do with good etiquette.

But why would we not hope that people become PM? If it's not about etiquette, then other than paying just to get the practical benefits, it would be about supporting the system, both financially and with input contribution (as a paying member which holds more weight to the company), in the hopes that it would improve, for the sake of the game and community.

 

I also do not think that what needs to come first is the desire to inform oneself about geocaching. Without the desire neither any offered help nor the payment of a fee will help.

I don't understand these two seemingly contradictory sentences.

 

I agree that without a desire to learn and be a part of the community, neither help offered nor becoming a PM will help. Those people will likely remain in the "unskilled unpaying" group (whether app-users or not). So, yes?

 

My point was that the largest group being griped against seems to be the combination of all - unskilled unpaying app-users. There are issues with people in every other 'group', of course, but the biggest (and why so many threads seem dedicated to complaining about 'smartphone users' as a whole, which is not right) would be that group.

 

While we all started as unskilled geocachers, I have first read all I could find and that makes an essential difference to me to the modern approach of just playing around which of course is not strictly restricted to inexperienced app cachers but more common among that group (it's like trying a game on their mobile phones - they will typically not first read about the game).

Right. So, let me reiterate: "We as a community just need to help anyone unskilled learn what geocaching is about, regardless of their device, and show what generally accepted 'good etiquette' is." No?

Edited September 27, 2016 by thebruce0

[cezanne]

I specifically implied that being PM has nothing to do with good etiquette.

 

I did not find that part in the section of your post I cited.

 

But why would we not hope that people become PM?

 

I do not care at all what they do and I'm not a PM myself.

 

it would be about supporting the system, both financially and with input contribution (as a paying member which holds more weight to the company), in the hopes that it would improve, for the sake of the game and community.

 

I do not believe into this - money will go into those sources where they believe that it's profitable with respect to the masses and that does not touch areas that I would see as improvements.

 

I agree that without a desire to learn and be a part of the community, neither help offered nor becoming a PM will help. Those people will likely remain in the "unskilled unpaying" group (whether app-users or not). So, yes?

 

As I said I cannot see any difference in the behaviour of between paying and non paying unskilled cachers. The same applies to skilled cachers.

I also do not think the desire to be part of a community is necessary. Just the desire to inform oneself about some basics.

 

My point was that the largest group being griped against seems to be the combination of all - unskilled unpaying app-users.

 

That does not match my own experience.

 

Right. So, let me reiterate: "We as a community just need to help anyone unskilled learn what geocaching is about, regardless of their device, and show what generally accepted 'good etiquette' is." No?

 

No community is required for that. The question of good etiquette comes as a second step (and is a delicate one anyway as so many skilled cachers at least in my area do not apply what I regard as good etiquette - for example throwdowns are normal around here and are considered to be helpful - this has not been the case in the early years).

 

As a second step some basics are required and that can easily covered just by reading the stuff available at gc.com and elsewhere. No community is required there.

[+narcissa]

The word "etiquette" in these discussions always seem off to me, because proper etiquette is supposed to be about making guests feel comfortable, but too often it ends up being used as a weapon to make outsiders feel unwelcome.

Edited September 27, 2016 by narcissa

[+thebruce0]

> I specifically implied that being PM has nothing to do with good etiquette.

 

I did not find that part in the section of your post I cited.

"Implied". In the point that I described specifically that the actions people gripe about are not restricted to "unskilled unpaying app-users", but are found the most in such a group. Implied. Being a PM does not = having good etiquette.

 

> But why would we not hope that people become PM?

 

I do not care at all what they do and I'm not a PM myself.

That's fine. Doesn't mean anyone is wrong for hoping you become PM. And it implies nothing bad about your caching etiquette.

 

> it would be about supporting the system, both financially and with input contribution (as a paying member which holds more weight to the company), in the hopes that it would improve, for the sake of the game and community.

 

I do not believe into this - money will go into those sources where they believe that it's profitable with respect to the masses and that does not touch areas that I would see as improvements.

Supporting the company that provides you entertainment is entirely a personal choice. No one is holding against you your decision not to be a PM. (at least, if someone is holding it against you, I'm trying to say exactly that you (non-PM users) are not "the" problem - I'm on your side)

 

> I agree that without a desire to learn and be a part of the community, neither help offered nor becoming a PM will help. Those people will likely remain in the "unskilled unpaying" group (whether app-users or not). So, yes?

 

As I said I cannot see any difference in the behaviour of between paying and non paying unskilled cachers. The same applies to skilled cachers.

I also do not think the desire to be part of a community is necessary. Just the desire to inform oneself about some basics.

Maybe you cannot see any difference, but there are plenty of examples in this forum of problematic behaviour (whether intended or not) - once again, in both paying and non-paying members, but moreso the latter - once again, of both handheld and "app" users, but moreso the latter.

 

I'm hoping you can see that I'm saying specifically that the problem is not merely "app-users", and the problem is not merely "non-paying members", and the problem is not merely "unskilled" users, even though there are problematic users across the board. The biggest problem group though is where all 3 combine - whether it's intentional/willful issues or simply people who haven't learned any better. That's why threads keep popping up with people complaining about certain caching etiquettes, and most often blaming "smartphone users" - which is not exclusively the problem; nor is it non-paying members. I dunno how else I can word it to be more clear =P

 

> My point was that the largest group being griped against seems to be the combination of all - unskilled unpaying app-users.

That does not match my own experience.

Because your own experience is limited to -- your own experience. I'm talking about based on being a part of this forum, and the most common sentiments expressed in threads here most often. My local experience is different like yours - I tend to notice there's more problematic ethic (especially arguments and geocides) amongst experienced handheld users than smartphone users. But I also see problems across the spectrum, just in my own region. We each have different perspectives, but we can't argue against other experiences. Our only shared experience is here on this forum, which is effectively worldwide (though tends to be more tech-savy users, who don't mind angsty forums )

And here, we find the most complaints appear to be against unskilled nonpaying "app-users", while some people like to label with a broad brush either non-PM users or smartphone users - neither of which is accurate.

 

> Right. So, let me reiterate: "We as a community just need to help anyone unskilled learn what geocaching is about, regardless of their device, and show what generally accepted 'good etiquette' is." No?

 

No community is required for that. The question of good etiquette comes as a second step (and is a delicate one anyway as so many skilled cachers at least in my area do not apply what I regard as good etiquette - for example throwdowns are normal around here and are considered to be helpful - this has not been the case in the early years).

 

As a second step some basics are required and that can easily covered just by reading the stuff available at gc.com and elsewhere. No community is required there.

Who said required? Of course community isn't required for someone to adopt what the local community may consider good etiquette.

"We just need to" means in good heart, should we not as a community aim to help and guide newcomers to the pastime?

 

That's why we hold events and invite people; why people occasionally run "geocaching 101" events, to help people learn - both the technicalities and the etiquette. And you know, to meet people, make friends, have fun. Why not do so? Because it's not required? such a downer.

Edited September 27, 2016 by thebruce0