What makes a good puzzle?

[+L0ne.R]

Some people enjoy the challenge, some people just refuse to be defeated. I might not understand it, but I'm not going to denigrate a puzzle or its owner because I don't get it.

 

I, personally, have never met anybody who enjoys mind-reading games like that, and I suspect that I have solved and found a few more puzzle caches than you have.

 

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt. How about you produce one of these people, and I give them a classic moon logic puzzle (it will be a legitimate geocaching puzzle, with final coordinates and plenty of clues) and then have them solve it and tell the rest of us whether or not they like it.

 

Since you claim to know so many cachers who enjoy moon logic puzzles, this cannot be difficult for you at all.

 

Or, even better, how about you volunteer to solve it? While you are working on it, we'll taunt you, and (if you ever actually solve it) then you can tell us about how you found it enjoyable.

 

Sounds fair to me. Go for it.

 

Well, either that or quit making these claims.

 

I just don't think there is any need to bully a cache owner because his/her caches don't appeal to me.

 

 

I'm a puzzle owner. I own one that is the style that J Grouchy doesn't like (hidden stuff in the text found by highlighting (or looking at the source code). I've never been bullied by geocachers about it. I don't consider Grouchy's admission that he doesn't like that style of puzzle to be bullying. I realize that the style is not everyone's cup of tea, but our cache has 24% FPs, which definitely doesn't make me feel bullied.

[+narcissa]

Some people enjoy the challenge, some people just refuse to be defeated. I might not understand it, but I'm not going to denigrate a puzzle or its owner because I don't get it.

 

I, personally, have never met anybody who enjoys mind-reading games like that, and I suspect that I have solved and found a few more puzzle caches than you have.

 

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt. How about you produce one of these people, and I give them a classic moon logic puzzle (it will be a legitimate geocaching puzzle, with final coordinates and plenty of clues) and then have them solve it and tell the rest of us whether or not they like it.

 

Since you claim to know so many cachers who enjoy moon logic puzzles, this cannot be difficult for you at all.

 

Or, even better, how about you volunteer to solve it? While you are working on it, we'll taunt you, and (if you ever actually solve it) then you can tell us about how you found it enjoyable.

 

Sounds fair to me. Go for it.

 

Well, either that or quit making these claims.

 

I just don't think there is any need to bully a cache owner because his/her caches don't appeal to me.

 

 

I'm a puzzle owner. I own one that is the style that J Grouchy doesn't like (hidden stuff in the text found by highlighting (or looking at the source code). I've never been bullied by geocachers about it. I don't consider Grouchy's admission that he doesn't like that style of puzzle to be bullying. I realize that the style is not everyone's cup of tea, but our cache has 24% FPs, which definitely doesn't make me feel bullied.

 

I think you're mixing up threads or something - I don't understand the context of your comment given the parts you've quoted. The person in this thread appears to be someone named "fizzymagic."

 

Certainly nothing wrong with not liking puzzles. I don't like a lot of puzzles. That doesn't make them "bad." It doesn't mean they are unlikeable. It just means I don't like them.

[+dprovan]

We're talking about puzzles that are literally impossible unless the CO tells you how to solve them.

In my experience, such puzzles are often created by people who rarely or even never solve puzzles themselves.

I've seen that happen, of course, but I've also seen people that did solve puzzles, but just didn't grasp the gestalt of the information flow that makes a puzzle solvable.

 

I'm one to talk, though, since I very well might be one of those people: I've planted a couple puzzles, one I thought was tough but reasonable, the other fairly simple, but neither is solved very often even though this is a puzzle mad area. So I can't prove I get it, either.

 

I am married to someone who weirdly appreciates moon logic caches.

I still think we're talking about different things. Could you post a pointer to a few of these caches so we can see just how far in orbit the logic is?

[+narcissa]

I am married to someone who weirdly appreciates moon logic caches.

I still think we're talking about different things. Could you post a pointer to a few of these caches so we can see just how far in orbit the logic is?

 

Maybe we're talking about different things, but going by the manifesto posted here, I don't think so.

 

I'm not comfortable even looking at people's profiles or acknowledging people personally on the forum, and I'm *really* not comfortable posting examples of other people's caches so they can be analyzed and criticized without their knowledge or consent. That's just not right - it's the kind of thing that upsets people and makes them quit geocaching.

[+niraD]

In my experience, such puzzles are often created by people who rarely or even never solve puzzles themselves.

I've seen that happen, of course, but I've also seen people that did solve puzzles, but just didn't grasp the gestalt of the information flow that makes a puzzle solvable.

In another context, I've seen a related pattern. New puzzle creators (rallyemasters) are generally experienced puzzle solvers (rallyists). But when they're in charge of creating the puzzles, they don't realize that their goal is (or at least, should be) to provide entertaining puzzles (gimmicks) to the participants. Instead, they focus on "stumping the experts", or on including every clever twist they can think of, or on some other goal that doesn't help make it fun for the participants. It really is a hard lesson to learn.

 

And even when you understand the goal to provide entertainment to the participants, it can be hard to put into practice. I know people who have struggled with this, and even as they try to tone things down and keep it fun, they still produce mind-numbingly difficult challenges.

[+dprovan]

I'm not comfortable even looking at people's profiles or acknowledging people personally on the forum, and I'm *really* not comfortable posting examples of other people's caches so they can be analyzed and criticized without their knowledge or consent. That's just not right - it's the kind of thing that upsets people and makes them quit geocaching.

When someone publishes a cache for all to see, I assume they're prepared for people to look at it. But whatever.

[+geocat_]

I'm not comfortable even looking at people's profiles or acknowledging people personally on the forum, and I'm *really* not comfortable posting examples of other people's caches so they can be analyzed and criticized without their knowledge or consent. That's just not right - it's the kind of thing that upsets people and makes them quit geocaching.

When someone publishes a cache for all to see, I assume they're prepared for people to look at it. But whatever.

 

Agree. In fact, I am going to say that one way to determine a good puzzle is by the comments left in the logs. Generally, people have good things to say about good caches. Conversely, a cache which others disparage does not exactly make me want to look for it.