What's the farthest.....

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What's the farthest distance that you can place a Puzzle Icon from the actual GZ Coords? Thank you!

Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates.

Less than two miles (3200m).

Mistery guidelines.

Whana bet?

Since this is the "How Do I..?" section of the Forums, it's probably best just to answer the question as honestly as possible and leave speculation out of the equation.

Less than two miles (3200m).

Mistery guidelines.

Whana bet?

Here is the relevant text from the guideline:

"Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates."

Does that mean that there aren't mystery caches out there with final coordinates more than 2 miles from the published coordinates? No, it doesn't, and for a couple reasons.

First, that guideline hasn't always existed. Any caches published prior to the existence of the guideline did not have that limitation.

Secondly, the reviewer/cache owner process is based on trust. If a cache submitter checks the box which indicates that they have read and understand the guidelines the reviewer can only trust that the submitter is being honest. Only recently has there been a requirement that puzzle cache submissions include the final coordinates as an additional waypoint, so a reviewer can only trust the submitter that the final is, in fact, less than two miles from the published coordinates and it would be unrealistic for the reviewer to solve every mystery cache and find the cache to confirm that the submitter complied with the guideline.

There is a twist to all rules. Here is this twist. A puzzle can also be a multy. There is no distance rule for multies. I have done some and made some.

Also checked with reviewer and find my statement true.

Multy no rule, straight puzzle two miles, puzzle hybrid multy no rule on distance. The puzzle multy gets the ? Icon also.

Multy no rule, straight puzzle two miles, puzzle hybrid multy no rule on distance

What do you mean by "Multi no rule"? The Multi Koordinates are listet right at the top of the Listing. You know, where a multi starts, no question about this. For a mystery, you dont know the starting coords, thats why the rule says, the start will be within 2 miles from the listing coords. A mystery can be a one-stage mystery or a multi-stage mystery, the rules for both are the same.

From the guidelines fro multi cache:

"The coordinates posted at the top of the cache listing are for the first stage of a multi-cache."

Edited by Mausebiber
Multy no rule, straight puzzle two miles, puzzle hybrid multy no rule on distance
What do you mean by "Multi no rule"? The Multi Koordinates are listet right at the top of the Listing. You know, where a multi starts, no question about this. For a mystery, you dont know the starting coords, thats why the rule says, the start will be within 2 miles from the listing coords. A mystery can be a one-stage mystery or a multi-stage mystery, the rules for both are the same.

From the guidelines fro multi cache:

"The coordinates posted at the top of the cache listing are for the first stage of a multi-cache."

My understanding of Mn-treker's comment is that
• a typical multi-cache (with no puzzle element) has no restriction on the distance between the posted coordinates and any of the other stages, including the final, except for the basic requirement that the CO is responsible for maintaining all the stages;
• a typical puzzle cache (with no multi-cache element) is limited to 2 miles between the posted coordinates and the final; and
• a hybrid puzzle multi-cache (aka a multi-stage puzzle cache) has no restriction on the distance between the posted coordinates and the final (like a typical multi-cache), although the first stage may be required to be within 2 miles of the posted coordinates (like a typical puzzle cache).

I am not a volunteer reviewer, and I don't play one on TV, so I can't say whether or not this is an official interpretation of the guidelines. But it does match what I've seen locally.

a typical puzzle cache (with no multi-cache element) is limited to 2 miles between the posted coordinates and the final;

Groundspeak does only specify starting coordinates, the final of any cache type can be any distance, no limitations.

Tradi cache, listing coordinates are final coordinates

Multi cache, listing coordinates are for stage 1

Mystery cache, listing coordinates are within 2 miles of actual final or stage 1.

Only cache where the starting coordinates must be found by solving a riddle qualify as mystery cache. Multi cache and other, where stages have some sort of a puzzle will be identified by adding the listing attributes "Field Puzzle"

As all can see there is much to learn on these different types of hides.

What got me to look things up was I had heard of one in which the final

Was 1000 miles from the start. That was a multy and no I did not miss print that. So I did an experiment and made a five stage multy in which the final

Is 30 miles from stage one. I checked with my reviewers as to the rules

For both multies and puzzles and what I call the puzzle multy hybrid.

So only a straight puzzle has the rule that the final must be within two

Miles of the posted false coords.

a typical puzzle cache (with no multi-cache element) is limited to 2 miles between the posted coordinates and the final;

Groundspeak does only specify starting coordinates, the final of any cache type can be any distance, no limitations.

No, as you can see by the guideline quoted above, this is not true.

I'm not sure why there's so much confusion here. It's actually very simple:

Puzzle/Mystery/Unknown icon: Final must be within 2 miles of the posted coordinates. Any intermediate stages can be any distance.

Multi icon: Final (and any intermediate stages) can be any distance from the posted coordinates.

Whatever style of hybrid a cache may be, the restriction (or lack of) all depends on what type of cache it's listed as. Interestingly, the guidelines for the other types that can be hidden away from the posted coordinates (Letterbox Hybrid, Wherigo) don't have a distance restriction listed, so they're implicitly treated the same as Multis.

So only a straight puzzle has the rule that the final must be within two

Miles of the posted false coords.

This only applies if the mystery has no stages. If the mystery cache has several stages the final can be anywhere also outside the 2 miles.

Groundspeak is assuming, that the solves coordinates are are the final coordinates for the cache, and therefore the wording is misleading.

What you are saying is, the start of a final can be anywhere as long as the final is within 2 miles of the listed coordinates.

No! The reason for the two miles is, that if you solve a riddle you know, the start is somewhere in the area and NOT in Alaska when you are in Florida.

a typical puzzle cache (with no multi-cache element) is limited to 2 miles between the posted coordinates and the final;

So, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you solve a puzzle with no additional stages, the final is within two miles. The start and final coordinates are identical. For a multi stages cache, the start is within 2 miles, the final can be anywhere.

So only a straight puzzle has the rule that the final must be within two

Miles of the posted false coords.

This only applies if the mystery has no stages. If the mystery cache has several stages the final can be anywhere also outside the 2 miles.

Groundspeak is assuming, that the solves coordinates are are the final coordinates for the cache, and therefore the wording is misleading.

What is your source for this information? The guidelines - which are the definitive source - are very clear:

Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates. This allows the cache to show up on the appropriate vicinity searches and means that the mileage of Trackables passing through the cache will be reasonably accurate. Add the final set of coordinates and any additional waypoints to the cache listing before submitting for review.

Note that it doesn't say "the solved coordinates" or "the first intermediate stage", it says "final coordinates". That's the last (final) part of the cache where the logbook is located.

If you've found modern (ie. hidden in the last few years) Puzzle/Mystery/Unknown caches where the final (ie. the container with the logbook) is farther than 2 miles from the posted coordinates, the owner has lied to the reviewer by not disclosing accurate information about the cache's location.

That's the last (final) part of the cache where the logbook is located.

So, the listed coordinates are in Florida, the solved riddle coordinates where you have to start you adventure are in Alaska and the final is in Florida again within the two miles of the listing coordinates.

What you are saying is, you are solving puzzle cache and have no idea where the start will be it could be anywhere as long as the final is within 2 miles.

Don't you think when cacher see a question mark on the map and solve the puzzle, the assume that it is within a reachable distance, let's say 2 miles

You are saying, the guidelines are clear, yes?

What about this statement: "Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates. This allows the cache to show up on the appropriate vicinity searches"

Any search for geocache will always return cache with the listed coordinates, never the true coordinates of a mystery cache. The vicinity searches for mystery cache will not change if the cache is actually 2 miles or 200 miles away.

Anyway, happy caching

Mausebiber

Edited by Mausebiber

Well like I stated elsewhere a puzzle multy That I had searched for had the final 50 miles from the posted false coords. You solved the puzzle and that lead you to stage one from there each stage had coords to the next stage.

That hide has the ? Icon. Stage one is about 1 mile from posted false coords.

.12 to the next then 35 miles to the next then 60 miles to the next. And so on

For ten stages. The tenth and final at about 50 miles from the posted false coords. Approved as per Groundspeak rules.

That's the last (final) part of the cache where the logbook is located.

So, the listed coordinates are in Florida, the solved riddle coordinates where you have to start you adventure are in Alaska and the final is in Florida again within the two miles of the listing coordinates.

What you are saying is, you are solving puzzle cache and have no idea where the start will be it could be anywhere as long as the final is within 2 miles.

Yes, while not the best idea, the scenario you describe falls within the guidelines. It could foster long-distance cooperation, though!

Well like I stated elsewhere a puzzle multy That I had searched for had the final 50 miles from the posted false coords. You solved the puzzle and that lead you to stage one from there each stage had coords to the next stage.

That hide has the ? Icon. Stage one is about 1 mile from posted false coords.

.12 to the next then 35 miles to the next then 60 miles to the next. And so on

For ten stages. The tenth and final at about 50 miles from the posted false coords. Approved as per Groundspeak rules.

When was that cache published? The 2-mile restriction is fairly recent. Before that time, you could have a puzzle final any distance from the posted coordinates. I've found many puzzle finals that are much more than 2 miles from the posted coordinates, but those were mostly hidden in the 2002-2005 timeframe, predating the 2-mile restriction.

What would you call recent. I learned of the rule back in early 2012.

The hide I refer to is GC2HPN6 placed on 10/30/2011.

Another is GC2K5E3, I have just began that one. Stage two 140 miles from posted. Just remember I have talked with the reviewers and confirmed.

This is allowed, puzzle yes multy more. So multy rules.

I think Mn-treker is right.

Hello The A-Team,

you are referring to the guidelines https://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines

Last Updated: February 17, 2015

where it says "Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates."

There is an updated version https://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=277

1.20. Mystery/Puzzle

updated 5 March 2015

Mystery/Puzzle Geocache is the "catch-all" of geocache types. It was formerly called an "Unknown" geocache.

For many geocaches of this type, the listed coordinates are not where the cache is placed. They refer to a nearby waypoint, such as parking. If the listed coordinates are not for the geocache location, the true geocache location should be no more than 2 miles (3.2 km) away.

As you can see, Groundspeak is not talking about "final coordinates" any more but about "geocache location"

This can be the final of a one-stage Mystery or the start of a multi-stage mystery.

At least this is how I understand it and how it is handled here in Germany.

Best greetings

Mausebiber

That's the last (final) part of the cache where the logbook is located.

So, the listed coordinates are in Florida, the solved riddle coordinates where you have to start you adventure are in Alaska and the final is in Florida again within the two miles of the listing coordinates.

What you are saying is, you are solving puzzle cache and have no idea where the start will be it could be anywhere as long as the final is within 2 miles.

I could see this sort of approach used for an exchange cache.

I could team up with my brother in Californian and both of use create mystery cache. Solving the puzzle on my cache (with published coordinates in NY) would reveal coordinates in California. At those coordinates would be a tag with the coordinates for the final location of my cache, withing two miles of the published coordinates. Someone living in NY could solve the my cache and then exchange puzzle solutions with someone that solved my brothers puzzle cache in California. Then each would go to location where the tag is located and exchange those coordinates as well. In both cases, the final location would be within two miles of the published coordinates.

Don't you think when cacher see a question mark on the map and solve the puzzle, the assume that it is within a reachable distance, let's say 2 miles

They could assume that the *final* location is within 2 miles of the published location. They can't necessarily assume how far they'll have to actually travel to get there. If the cache was published before "within 2 miles of the published location" guideline was added, they can't even assume that the final will be within 2 miles of the published coordinates.

I think Mn-treker is right.

Hello The A-Team,

you are referring to the guidelines https://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines

Last Updated: February 17, 2015

where it says "Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates."

There is an updated version https://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=277

1.20. Mystery/Puzzle

updated 5 March 2015

Mystery/Puzzle Geocache is the "catch-all" of geocache types. It was formerly called an "Unknown" geocache.

For many geocaches of this type, the listed coordinates are not where the cache is placed. They refer to a nearby waypoint, such as parking. If the listed coordinates are not for the geocache location, the true geocache location should be no more than 2 miles (3.2 km) away.

As you can see, Groundspeak is not talking about "final coordinates" any more but about "geocache location"

This can be the final of a one-stage Mystery or the start of a multi-stage mystery.

At least this is how I understand it and how it is handled here in Germany.

Best greetings

Mausebiber

That certainly does confuse matters. It's unfortunate that they have inconsistent terminology between those two locations.

Anyway, while not as clear as in the guidelines, to me it still seems to be saying the same thing. I expect if you asked most cachers whether they would consider the "geocache location" to be the bogus coordinates, some intermediate point (e.g. solved puzzle=new starting point), or the container with the logbook, you'd find most would answer that it's the container with the logbook. The rest is just the stuff you need to do to get to the geocache.

If there are any Lackeys reading this, it would be good to clarify these two guidelines/articles regarding exactly which location is contemplated, and to also harmonize the terminology to remove inconsistencies and ambiguities. For example, the guideline uses "must be" while the article uses the old "should be", "final coordinates" vs. "geocache location", etc.

Hello The A-Team,

maybe you are right, maybe I'm right, I really don't know. To be on the save side, a reviewer or Groundspeak itself should be contacted to clarify the situation.

On the other hand, I don't know of any real problems concerning to two miles rule, most everyone will be within the limits anyway.

Thanks for the discussion and always happy caching

MB

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