The Invisible Man

[+-CJ-]

I don't want to control anyone, narcissa. I'm thinking about the way to educate people - like you do in your posts. But first I wish to know their preferences and understand their way of thinking - and know if I'm good enough to be an educator.

[+redsox_mark]

Lots of interesting comments in this thread.

 

My thoughts (many of which were expressed already in different ways):

 

1. All cachers should care about not calling attention to a hide when muggles are around. But you can't control what others do.

 

2. The best way to do point 1 depends on the location, and the individual. Sometimes being bold and confident is the best way. But that might not work for everyone all the time.

 

3. The hide itself, and the amount of muggles makes a difference. I find caches with LOTS of muggles (i.e crowds) easier in general than a place with fewer muggles, but never muggle free. In a large crowd you are less likely to be noticed. A hide which is well hidden from muggles but with a good hint making it quick for a cacher can survive a long time. I feel much more confident in a large crowd than if there is just one other muggle in sight, but he is watching my every move.

[cezanne]

This is why I opened this thread. The general idea is to choose better way of acting. If I see that someone can't be educated (like in your example) then I probably should not waste my time.

 

You will never reach every possible cacher. You can only target at reaching a subgroup of them.

 

In any case, cache descriptions for caches at locations attractive to tourists should be written with care.

If multiple visits might likely be required to log the cache unwatched, then this should be reflected in the D-rating

and mentioned in the cache description to warn tourists to better stay away from such caches if they do not come equipped with

much time.

 

The typical geocaching tourists comes to visit the sight and log a cache and not to play a hide and seek agent-like game and

spend 1 hour or more per cache container. If a cache is targeted to local cachers who are like to be challenged (and the

challenge could e.g. to log a cache at a very exposed location unwatched), this cache should be clearly marked so that

everyone who is expecting a quick find can stay away.

 

 

 

The best way of education would probably be to own caches. When I own say 20 physical caches and have to look after them I definitely won't behave "like a bull in a china shop" with caches belonging to other players.

 

I do not agree.

 

First, if I own caches in country X or region Y, this will not provide me with knowledge about specifics of another country or region.

I know many examples where someone has hidden a cache close to several houses in a small village and then reacted negatively to logs of cachers reporting that they felt very uncomfortable at the location

and attracted attention by their mere presence (even when having given up quickly without a find). Typically these people then argue that there exist many comparable caches in city A which is true, but a completely

different story as in a large city on a public place a stranger attracts much less attention.

I need to admit that I have no idea of things to better avoid as geocacher in a country like Russia.

 

Second, I know many cachers who own bold hides themselves and they are prepared to replace the containers if they get lost. While when I started it was common that people hid caches relatively far from their home,

this has become relatvely uncommon for caches in urban areas nowadays.The big majority of the urban caches which are problematic with regard to muggle issues are hidden close to either the work place or home location of the hiders.

When it comes to mountain caches the situation is different, but these are not the type of caches where stealth issues are of high importance.

[cezanne]

1. All cachers should care about not calling attention to a hide when muggles are around. But you can't control what others do.

 

Already deciding whether one is observed by muggles is often not possible.

You could e.g. look around at the street and grab the cache when noone is around and still be observed out of a window of a building nearby.

 

Moreover, often already the fact that suddenly a much higher number of people than usual visit a place attracts the attention of the residents (this has already been

mentioned by narcissa).

[+-CJ-]

redsox_mark, as for your point 3: you could notice that many people in this thread expressed their opinion that placing caches in "overmuggled" zones is itself a part of the problem. After that, there come tutors who explain how to place caches properly. This is a different topic however. One can open a new thread, I think. In my original post I tried to find out why people didn't bother to be stealthy at all whatever the cache was.

 

The idea that caches in extremely busy spots are likely to be muggled again and again sounds obvious. The owner who chose such a spot should understand possible consequences - this idea is obvious too. With people repeating this I think that seekers could have their minds shifted a bit from their responsibility towards the responsibility of COs. And this could be an additional reason for acting like being invisible. A seeker believes that the CO already took care of the safety of this cache so it's pretty much OK to search for it without any stealth.

Edited October 22, 2014 by -CJ-

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Ultimately, you just can't control how others are going to act around your cache.

 

Some people will be very careful.

 

Some people will be nervous and end up looking suspicious as they try to be "stealthy."

 

Some people will walk up to the cache with confidence, in plain sight, and not arouse suspicion because it looks like they are supposed to be there.

 

Some people will arrive at the GZ in a large group travelling in three cars, swarm the cache site, and then leave again as quickly as they came.

 

When you place a cache, expect that there will be coming and going, and that muggles will notice despite any attempts at "stealth." Expect that a cache in a high muggle area will be compromised and stolen, repeatedly. If you don't like that, find a better spot.

 

Or archive the cache and don't reward those that have no consideration for cache owners with the opportunity for another smiley.

 

 

[+dprovan]

In fact, it wasn't the topic I raised in this thread.

I thought it was clear that we're talking about a side issue someone brought up. I've tried to remember in every post to contrast our discussion of when stealth is pointless with the case you originally raised where stealth wasn't even considered.

 

you just have to suffer inconsiderate tourists that put their fun above any consideration of risk

They are obviously a problem, but in my initial post I excluded them and talked about experienced cachers.

In my experience, the very experienced cachers spend a lot of time outside their home area, since they've found all the caches there, so they're basically tourists wherever they go. Fortunately most of them remain considerate, but you've obviously run into some exceptions, and perhaps that is a problem in your local geocaching culture, but I wouldn't know.

 

But you're asking what can be done about it, and the only thing I can see is reacting on the personal level, like discussing it with the geocachers when you're there and sending them some suggestions if you aren't. Since you're ruling out tourists, that suggests the possibility of discussing it at events to make sure everyone's aware of the problem. I think the general documentation is clear on the need for stealth, so I don't think the global education of the issue could be improved much.

[+narcissa]

Ultimately, you just can't control how others are going to act around your cache.

 

Some people will be very careful.

 

Some people will be nervous and end up looking suspicious as they try to be "stealthy."

 

Some people will walk up to the cache with confidence, in plain sight, and not arouse suspicion because it looks like they are supposed to be there.

 

Some people will arrive at the GZ in a large group travelling in three cars, swarm the cache site, and then leave again as quickly as they came.

 

When you place a cache, expect that there will be coming and going, and that muggles will notice despite any attempts at "stealth." Expect that a cache in a high muggle area will be compromised and stolen, repeatedly. If you don't like that, find a better spot.

 

Or archive the cache and don't reward those that have no consideration for cache owners with the opportunity for another smiley.

 

Yes, you can always blame others and take your ball and go home when your "stealth required" cache in a high-traffic area goes missing, repeatedly.

[+Team Microdot]

Ultimately, you just can't control how others are going to act around your cache.

 

Some people will be very careful.

 

Some people will be nervous and end up looking suspicious as they try to be "stealthy."

 

Some people will walk up to the cache with confidence, in plain sight, and not arouse suspicion because it looks like they are supposed to be there.

 

Some people will arrive at the GZ in a large group travelling in three cars, swarm the cache site, and then leave again as quickly as they came.

 

When you place a cache, expect that there will be coming and going, and that muggles will notice despite any attempts at "stealth." Expect that a cache in a high muggle area will be compromised and stolen, repeatedly. If you don't like that, find a better spot.

 

Or archive the cache and don't reward those that have no consideration for cache owners with the opportunity for another smiley.

 

Yes, you can always blame others and take your ball and go home when your "stealth required" cache in a high-traffic area goes missing, repeatedly.

 

Putting the purposely emotive language to one side - fact is that archiving such a cache is actually a reflection of the CO acknowledging that they took a risk that didn't pay off this time - end of.

 

Of course they could carry on pointlessly replacing the cache - or just not take the risk in the first place. Neither option sounds like much fun

[+-CJ-]

perhaps that is a problem in your local geocaching culture, but I wouldn't know

 

Our local geocaching culture (if it exists) could have many problems but I think that this is not the case. Examples that I provided in the first post were actually from three different countries.

 

But you're asking what can be done about it, and the only thing I can see is reacting on the personal level, like discussing it with the geocachers when you're there and sending them some suggestions if you aren't. Since you're ruling out tourists, that suggests the possibility of discussing it at events to make sure everyone's aware of the problem. I think the general documentation is clear on the need for stealth, so I don't think the global education of the issue could be improved much.

 

You said the cases I described were obviuos exceptions. The first time I witnessed this approach I decided it was an exception. But after that I saw this again, again and again. So, you suggest acting like with people who post spoilers in their logs: talk to the guy, explain the situation, try to have the spoiler removed. I could do this but I don't witness every cache search in my city. I know about such cases only by personal meeting or from a log or PM. Both happens rarely. WEll, I could probably invest my time and nerves and try to influence a few minds post factum but I doubt this would influence the situation anyhow. It could easily be a waste of resources, not effective at all - and this is what I would like to avoid. Another issue is that I don't feel myself to become a personal geotutor for an unknown person without his/her request.

 

So, I'm still thinking.

 

What is that general documentation on stealth that you said was clear? I'm asking because I was told recently that stealth was supposed not to camouflage the cache hunt but to protect cache seekers from being troubled by muggles. Then probably it's not that clear.

Edited October 23, 2014 by -CJ-

[cezanne]

The idea that caches in extremely busy spots are likely to be muggled again and again sounds obvious. The owner who chose such a spot should understand possible consequences - this idea is obvious too. With people repeating this I think that seekers could have their minds shifted a bit from their responsibility towards the responsibility of COs. And this could be an additional reason for acting like being invisible. A seeker believes that the CO already took care of the safety of this cache so it's pretty much OK to search for it without any stealth.

 

In 2002 geocaching was a kind of secret activity, but that has changed considerably meanwhile.

 

I have encountered many caches where everyone or almost everyone in the area knows about the cache and quite often cachers get pointed to the cache even before they can manage to search for them on their own.

Some of these caches still are equipped with the stealth icon though they are hidden in such a way that it is impossible to really act stealthy and in many cases it would create more suspicion and confusion if someone to disguise as a muggle

not coming for the cache everyone knows about. Consider e.g. a kind of huge electric box looking very real installed at the facade of a house where one not only needs to open the box, but then remove the front panel inside of the box (a huge object) in order

te retrieve from behind a large log book and a large plastic container). You cannot go for that cache at night in a small village as then it would create much more suspicion - so what is left is to live with the fact that some people will ultimately see you (even if you wait until noone is around on the road and if a second person waits around the corner).

 

I also have encountered caches where large containers visible to everyone are placed in plain sight at very public places - in some cases they are even marked as geocaches. Most of these caches are protected by locks which can be only opened by those who know the code, but there are variations where no code is required, but for example only the right idea to open the container. I had one where a huge box has been installed at the parking lot of a well frequented inn (the owners of the inn knew about the cache, but of course not the guests of the inn). The construction often got vandalized which did not surprise me. It was not possible to work on opening the container without being seen by someone and the container could not be removed from the location. So you had to work on opening it right at the location.

 

I typically try to act stealthy wherever possible, but in recent years it happened quite often to me that my trying to hide my intent to visit a cache was counterproductive as everyone around knew about the cache.

 

Lots of cache owners hide caches in front of their home or work place and enjoy watching the cachers. It is not any longer clear for a cache searcher who knows about the cache and who does not and what is to be the expected behaviour.

There are caches where the cache owner took into account the muggle issue, but is quite confident that this will not endager the cache (for example because almost everyone is informed about the cache anyway) and then there are caches where the cache owner just has not invested enough thought or is just inexperienced and then there are caches where the cache owner just wants to see how far some cachers go to log a cache. All this and many other things have made the situation much more complicated as it has been 10 years ago.

 

Cezanne

[+AnnaMoritz]

When you place a cache, expect that there will be coming and going, and that muggles will notice despite any attempts at "stealth." Expect that a cache in a high muggle area will be compromised and stolen, repeatedly. If you don't like that, find a better spot.

Or archive the cache and don't reward those that have no consideration for cache owners with the opportunity for another smiley.

Yes, you can always blame others and take your ball and go home when your "stealth required" cache in a high-traffic area goes missing, repeatedly.

... fact is that archiving such a cache is actually a reflection of the CO acknowledging that they took a risk that didn't pay off this time - end of. Of course they could carry on pointlessly replacing the cache - or just not take the risk in the first place. Neither option sounds like much fun

 

If you own a cache like the one I mentioned in the heart of Vienna you most probably don't think 'that risk didn't pay off' and don't think 'it is pointlessly replacing the cache' as your cache gets hundreds of favorite points because it has a good story and a really daring, bold hideout. More likely you are proud of your cache and that it survived so many days in a row and replace it from time to time like paying rent for the privilege to hide a cache there.

 

There is a new cache on Trafalgar Square in London (PMO only), three weeks old, >40% Favorites, that tries to address the stealth issue in the description for visitors from all over in English, German, Swedish and French.

 

'This is a stealth cache and you will need all your urban geocaching skills in order to retrieve and replace the cache without being spotted. As this area has a very high concentration of muggles, CCTV and police, you should try to avoid acting suspiciously and use extreme stealth!'

 

The picture (like this showing a tip-toeing spy with sunglasses) is somewhat misleading, if you behave like this you would without doubt arouse suspicion.

 

This log on the cache is interesting as it mentions the stealth issue (from an american cacher): '... My gps took me to the wrong spot initially, but a very nice couple from Saarbrucken came over and asked me if I was looking for something. Ha, only the second time I have run into other geocachers. With a tip from my new friends, the cache was quickly located. I think I was stealthy enough. Very nicely hidden for such a high traffic area. TFTC! This gives me another country '

 

Yes, stealthy enough that no one took the cache within the next day. But not stealthy enough that no one noticed you were looking for something.

 

One day I was strolling in the most central parts of my city (very crowded with tourists and locals) with a friend that hadn't heard about geocaching before and didn't believe how you can hide something here in a daring manner and couldn't believe that you can tell who is looking for a cache. As we passed four cache locations at every single of them we could watch people looking for the cache. All of them were stealthy, but you can tell what they are doing if you are watching.

 

It is strange to think the people that are always there won't notice anything. They are not blind or stupid. The newspaper vendor, the street sweeper, police present at the square regularly sitting in their car in front of the cache, shopkeepers 10m away, people living there, street artists, beggars, regulars at coffee houses, people walking their dogs and people looking out of their windows or through the blinds of their windows for hours, how should it be possible that they do not notice that 1-17 people per day approach a certain spot that doesn't make sense for 'normal life', even if they are stealthy.

 

In rural areas it might be even worse. If no one ever except the snowplow and the guy who brings the post drives up to the last house and no one ever passes there and all of a sudden other cars show up or people stroll along, how can't anybody not notice? And when people notice, they wonder what's going on and watch and suspect (are they burglars spying out the place, want to steal something from the chapel, are they hiding drugs in the woods etc.) at the latest when the third cacher shows up.

 

Stealth prevents from being detected by teenagers hanging around or occasional other people that don't monitor the place all the time on places with few people. Mostly meaning 'come again later' if it isn't a container you can retrieve unseen if done clever.

 

What else would I think to help my cache survive?

 

In very exposed places it helps giving really good hints to avoid some of the possible problems. Where lots of tourists are to be expected, keep it simple. Present your most devious hides to the caching world at a places without stealth issues. Give hints in the language of the expected visitors (in London maybe add Czech also to German, Swedish and French). If people have to look at 30 spots that will draw more attention than necessary. Depending on how/where I'd even give detailed instructions how to retrieve the final of my ? unseen. If GPS reception is very jumpy suggest having a look at a map/satellite image in advance to avoid people running up and down too long staring at their devices.

[+-CJ-]

Partially the lack of stealth behaviour may be explained by the fact that many seekers do not have any experience as COs (or have very limited experience). They don't think the way CO could think. (Some of them are happy to give advices later on how to place geocaches though). For instance, I sometimes witnessed people searching in places rather unsuitable for caches without trying some obvious possible locations first. Being not stealthy at all (this is what this thread is about) these people attracted even more attention.

 

I once saw two guys climbed a small fence, crossed the lawn and searched a cache in holes of several old trees. "Why are they doing this? - I thought. - It's clearly said in the description that the cache is magnetic. Moreover, it's so obvious that in winter it will be problematic to walk in deep snow on the lawn being unnoticed by muggles. There are some metal constructions easily accessible from the road. One could explore them easily with a minimum of stealth applied before trying "the lawn way"". I seemed to me that these guys didn't thought in a way "where I could place this cache if I was a CO" at all. They just honestly followed their GPS device to get to the GZ. Luckily, it was night already, the area was poorly lighted and no muggles were around, so I'm not worried about that someone paid attention to their adventures. However, in some other circumstances such behaviour could be harmful to the hide.

 

Besides, seekers usually don't deal with consequences of their stealthy/not stealthy behaviour. They just leave the place to never return there again. It's the CO who finds that the cache was muggled. And it's usually impossible to connect this fact with any particular seeker. While recommendations "how to help my cache survive" can be effective because they influence the COs schedule and resources directly, the recommendations on how to be stealthy on others' caches are much more abstract: whether I follow them or not, it doesn't physically affect me. It's a theory put somewhere between the worlds of seekers and owners and since (as I said) few seekers have serious experience as owners they may have less understanding of consequences for this or that particular cache because they ignore/forget being stealthy.

 

I believe there will be people who will say "no, you're wrong" (need to look how many caches they own) but if this is true then probably "general documentation on stealth" should be better given from a perspective of a CO so that seekers who read it may see how their actions affect someone's life.

Edited October 23, 2014 by -CJ-

[cezanne]

Partially the lack of stealth behaviour may be explained by the fact that many seekers do not have any experience as COs (or have very limited experience). They don't think the way CO could think. (Some of them are happy to give advices later on how to place geocaches though). For instance, I sometimes witnessed people searching in places rather unsuitable for caches without trying some obvious possible locations first. Being not stealthy at all (this is what this thread is about) these people attracted even more attention.

 

I once saw two guys climbed a small fence, crossed the lawn and searched a cache in holes of several old trees. "Why are they doing this? - I thought. - It's clearly said in the description that the cache is magnetic. Moreover, it's so obvious that in winter it will be problematic to walk in deep snow on the lawn being unnoticed by muggles. There are some metal constructions easily accessible from the road. One could explore them easily with a minimum of stealth applied before trying "the lawn way"". I seemed to me that these guys didn't thought in a way "where I could place this cache if I was a CO" at all. They just honestly followed their GPS device to get to the GZ. Luckily, it was night already, the area was poorly lighted and no muggles were around, so I'm not worried about that someone paid attention to their adventures. However, in some other circumstances such behaviour could be harmful to the hide.

 

Am I right that the cache you refer to above was a traditional? Many cachers head out for traditionals just having the coordinates and nothing else. So the hint "magnetic" will not guide their search as they are not aware of it. Good coordinates are very important for urban traditionals where searching at wrong places migh attract attention.

 

I have a question for you which is connected to the issue of cultural and regional differences. Is it common in your area that cachers read the cache description when it comes to traditionals? In cache dense countries only a small minority is reading at least parts of the cache description. This is one of the major reasons why I have never hidden a traditional.

 

By the way: I had a good laugh at your argument "Think as the CO and do not enter the lawn as the traces could be visible in Winter". I have found (or often rather have failed to find) many caches where the container was hidden at places that I would have rejected from consideration by common sense arguments or by thinking "where would I hide a cache". Some caches can be found by me only by searching them where I definitely would never hide them. If one does not know the cache owner, it's hard to guess to which group of hiders he/she belongs to.

 

Cezanne

[+narcissa]

If you expect people to read the cache description, don't hide traditionals.

[+dprovan]

Partially the lack of stealth behaviour may be explained by the fact that many seekers do not have any experience as COs (or have very limited experience). They don't think the way CO could think. (Some of them are happy to give advices later on how to place geocaches though). For instance, I sometimes witnessed people searching in places rather unsuitable for caches without trying some obvious possible locations first. Being not stealthy at all (this is what this thread is about) these people attracted even more attention.

I agree there's a knowledge of what's suitable that's important to avoid bad search techniques, but I don't find that COs are any more likely to understand those issues than seekers. I sometimes go to unsuitable areas to search, but that's because I've found caches in such unsuitable areas before. Unless I know the CO, I always prepared to go off the reservation. (Well, sometimes I do it because I do know the CO, all too well...)

 

But that's just all the more reason to teach people about those issues before they plant caches. We agree about that, we just disagree about whether planting caches itself helps them understand.

Edited October 23, 2014 by dprovan

[+-CJ-]

Am I right that the cache you refer to above was a traditional?

 

Yes.

 

Is it common in your area that cachers read the cache description when it comes to traditionals?

 

Yes.

[+-CJ-]

we just disagree about whether planting caches itself helps them understand

 

It's more then planting. A seeker who doesn't hesitate attracting attention of the crowd by climbing fences and examining benches while people are sitting on them doesn't risk much. It's the CO who will need to maintain the cache. In other words if I'm a CO and I'm carefully hiding something in front of a CCTV camera I... well, I will most probably avoid this because if even I'm not questioned by the guard my cache could be removed soon and I will have to go and find another place. If I'm a seeker... why not search in front of a CCTV camera?

Edited October 25, 2014 by -CJ-

[+dprovan]

we just disagree about whether planting caches itself helps them understand

It's more then planting. A seeker who doesn't hesitate attracting attention of the crowd by climbing fences and examining benches while people are sitting on them doesn't risk much. It's the CO who will need to maintain the cache. In other words if I'm a CO and I'm carefully hiding something in front of a CCTV camera I... well, I will most probably avoid this because if even I'm not questioned by the guard my cache could be removed soon and I will have to go and find another place. If I'm a seeker... why not search in front of a CCTV camera?

I understand that the CO has more at risk. What I'm contesting is that being a CO somehow makes you automatically recognize the risks. You either notice a CCTV camera and recognize the risk or you don't. If you don't, as a CO you put your cache at risk, as a seeker you put someone else's cache at risk. Hiding a container doesn't automatically make you more aware of CCTV cameras.

 

On the other hand, as a CO recognizing the risk of a nearby CCTV, it's probably not a good idea to assume anyone seeking the cache would also notice the CCTV camera and its risks. Even the most conscientious seeker could miss something like that.

[+-CJ-]

automatically recognize the risks

 

What I'm trying to say is that a CO who has already lost N his caches may understand risks better than a seeker who hasn't lost anything. If I loose my containers, time for maintenance, nerves, stuff, magnets, whatever, this makes me think better of possible consequences of "unstealthy behaviour" then if I haven't lost anything but 15 minutes of my time.

[team tisri]

we just disagree about whether planting caches itself helps them understand

 

It's more then planting. A seeker who doesn't hesitate attracting attention of the crowd by climbing fences and examining benches while people are sitting on them doesn't risk much. It's the CO who will need to maintain the cache. In other words if I'm a CO and I'm carefully hiding something in front of a CCTV camera I... well, I will most probably avoid this because if even I'm not questioned by the guard my cache could be removed soon and I will have to go and find another place. If I'm a seeker... why not search in front of a CCTV camera?

 

As the cache placer your risk is that your container will be removed and destroyed. Depending on what the container is that may or may not be much of a loss. If it's a decent ammo can freshly stocked with trade items it could be a loss; if it's a film pot with a torn strip of paper in it then your loss is trivial.

 

The seeker potentially also has much to lose, if they "follow the arrow" onto private property and end up faced with an angry (and maybe armed) property owner, maybe have to deal with law enforcement or the bomb squad etc. If you get detained by the police as a suspected terrorist the cash value of a sandwich box is pretty trivial by comparison.

[+-CJ-]

How many caches that you own you usually loose, say, per year?

[team tisri]

How many caches that you own you usually loose, say, per year?

 

I don't own caches, simply because I never found a location that was sufficiently interesting to want to place one while also being close enough to home to maintain and far enough from other caches to be allowed.

[+-CJ-]

I see.

[cezanne]

Is it common in your area that cachers read the cache description when it comes to traditionals?

 

Yes.

 

Well, if this is indeed the case, then we have identified one cultural difference. In cache dense countries only the minority reads cache listings for traditionals.

[+AnnaMoritz]

While I belong to the minority that takes a glance also at the description of traditional caches I often see no reason to look at the hint. Why should I read the hint if I can find the cache without?

 

'Be careful, hornet's nest 5cm above the cache' 'Beware of ...' 'Stay away from ...' 'Not the blue container with logbook inside ...' should be available also to geocachers who don't read hints before looking for the cache. If the owner wants that people know about some issue, please mention that (also) in the description, not only in the hint.

 

Btw, I like the short overview of important facts given in two languages on the top of your (-CJ-) cache descriptions.