eTrex 20/30 bug

[tr_s]

Firmware 2.73b seems to forget the set destination if I power cycle the unit. I do however think it has always been this way since I got the device at 2.50.

If I press "Where to" it actually says it's navigating to some bogus destination (--------- or garbled text), but no pointer is being shown.

 

Can anyone else confirm this bug so I can mail etrexbeta@garmin.com ?

[+user13371]

Maybe it's just you. Running 2.73, I did this: Set the pointer on a distant waypoin and said go. Wait until it draw the magenta line and showed me the distance. Shut it off. Waited a minute and turned it back on A few seconds to re-acquire my position and it correctly draws the line and distance to that waypoint. The WhereTo page also shows the correct "navigating to..." name.

Edited April 23, 2012 by user13371

[tr_s]

Ok thanks - this is why I'm asking. Yes it might benefit from a hard reset. This is quite frustrating when you are going for a hike or trip as I don't generally keep the device on all the time.

[tr_s]

By the way, are you two using the 20 or 30? I'm using the 30... Just considering that the hardware is slightly different...

[tr_s]

Hard reset by three finger salute and before this unloading all maps (to ensure my third party stuff such as osm doesn't interfere). No go. Still exactly the same problem.

[tr_s]

However...

 

REMOVING THE SDHC CARD SOLVES THE PROBLEM!

 

My theory is that Garmin's initialization procedures aren't properly done... data objects are not waited for in a proper fashion at boot time.

[tr_s]

I see. It could also depend on the size of card. Is your card SDHC (larger than 4 GB) ? I've had electronics that supposedly "supported SDHC" but were slow as molasses and crashed when you actually used the cards.

Edited April 23, 2012 by tr_s

[+user13371]

If the card seems to make a difference, you might have a problem with the card, not necessarily the device.

 

Tr_S, what brand and size is your microSD card? Have you tried backing it up, reformatting it, and then putting it back in "empty?" Then compare startup times as you add various data to it.

 

WITHOUT a card installed, I've already noted elsewhere that my eTrex 20 can take several minutes to start up when there are new or changed GPX files loaded on it -- and after that it only takes seconds.

Edited April 23, 2012 by user13371

[tr_s]

Reformatted (low level, not quick) using FAT32

Copied back the map files

Did hard reset

 

Still the same problem.

 

Memory card is a Kingston 8GB SDHC, class 6.

[+user13371]

Whart happens without the card installed at all?

[tr_s]

Without the card installed at all; It works, at least kinda. I always get an alert that I am arriving at the waypoint whenever the unit is booting up though. So still buggy but it works better.

 

Another user on this forum has contacted me about this problem (navigating to shows garbled text or ---------). It's not only me.

[tr_s]

Worth noting is also that the user who contacted me reportedly has an etrex 20.

[+user13371]

I think you need Knight-something? Yeah, he told me the same thing. Don't know what's going on there. I have some things you could try but don't want to post publicly - tricks that might things worse rather than fix it. I'd hate for anyone to try them and blame me, but PM me if you want.

[ChefRd2000]

Gave this a try several times today and it worked correctly. I don't have a card installed. I will keep testing it.

[tr_s]

Gave this a try several times today and it worked correctly. I don't have a card installed. I will keep testing it.

 

Moving the mapfile to internal memory and removing the card ALMOST solves the problem. What happens for me instead when I do it, is that the GPS beeps and says it's arriving at the set waypoint after the reboot, even if one is miles away. Since one has then "visited" it, the goto is completely removed at the next consequent reboot.

[tr_s]

Have you who have tried this and say it works tried a goto to a waypoint other than a geocache? I'm saying it because I'm now noting it apparently works with geocache waypoints but nothing else...

[tr_s]

What the....? Using the geocache feature once, seems to have solved the problem for all types of waypoints!

 

I suspect incidentality because of my usage patterns. I had never previously used the Geocache feature. Considering the nature of this forum I think most have.

[tr_s]

Removing the .gpx files with geocaches reintroduces the problem. I suspect the enumeration of gpx files during startup simply introduces proper delays at the right moments, which suddenly makes it working.

 

So, ensure to have enough gpx files on your device - Odd workaround for sure.

[tr_s]

Works fine with my memory card as well if the gpx files are there to slow down the startup by 15-20 seconds. This really is a classic case of not waiting long enough for things to settle in the startup! But, this is indeed what i suspected from the start, so no surprise there...

[ChefRd2000]

Added a memory card just to test . Added a few maps to the card. It now forgets where it was going when powered off/on. Yes, a bug!

[tr_s]

Another one, quite related to this:

 

An acquaintance loaded Citynavigator 2011 to his eTrex-20 and is using it as a hybrid car GPS.

Works quite well, except for the fact that after a power cycle, the unit gives an error beep and sourly notices that the maps do not have routable roads in the area.

The goto/route is then forgotten.

 

I'd be willing to bet that the problem is about the same (garmin firmware doesn't correctly wait for Z before X in the boot-up, where Z is loading maps and X is starting the routing/distance calculation engine).

[tr_s]

More bugs - I've been doing some hikes around town recently. I pre-plan them by drawing tracks in Mapsource and then save them as .GPX files onto the device.

 

Problem - the eTrex 30 seems to think the track is being followed BACKWARDS - against the way it is defined; i.e. walking from start symbol to finish symbol between every point the distance to destination actually INCREASES in between the track points and the pointer points backwards (when passing a track point, the distance suddenly decreases).

 

Not a very disturbing bug, but has anyone else seen it?

Edited May 7, 2012 by tr_s

[tr_s]

What???

 

A start and finish is defined in the track (n.b! do not confuse a track with a route; the route capability I haven't tried much yet).

 

If I want to follow the track, then it is to be followed from start to finish. Can't be any clearer than that. There shouldn't be any "autonomy" which assumes you want to go the other way just because you happen to be close to the finish... no other eTrex or other GPS at all I've used has worked that way. Most have an option for "track reversal" if you want to do that; the 20/30 has as well.

 

But because you ask... yes, I always push goto at the trailhead (defined start), nowhere else.

[seldom_sn]

tr_s I think I had a similar problem, and this is how I solved it with an Etrex 30. I had started back on an in and out hike, and was curious how far I had to go.

TracBack wouldn't work because it tried to run my entire track in reverse, taking be back uphill to my turn around point.

To get around that I saved the track.

Copied it in reverse. The track got a name with a exclamation mark in front of it.

I then hit Where To and selected the reversed track.

With the reversed track selected, the track took me in the direction I was headed, and the trip computer counted down my distance to destination.

[ChefRd2000]

tr_s I think I had a similar problem, and this is how I solved it with an Etrex 30. I had started back on an in and out hike, and was curious how far I had to go.

TracBack wouldn't work because it tried to run my entire track in reverse, taking be back uphill to my turn around point.

To get around that I saved the track.

Copied it in reverse. The track got a name with a exclamation mark in front of it.

I then hit Where To and selected the reversed track.

With the reversed track selected, the track took me in the direction I was headed, and the trip computer counted down my distance to destination.

 

This is so sad! :-)

[tr_s]

tr_s I think I had a similar problem, and this is how I solved it with an Etrex 30. I had started back on an in and out hike, and was curious how far I had to go.

TracBack wouldn't work because it tried to run my entire track in reverse, taking be back uphill to my turn around point.

To get around that I saved the track.

Copied it in reverse. The track got a name with a exclamation mark in front of it.

I then hit Where To and selected the reversed track.

With the reversed track selected, the track took me in the direction I was headed, and the trip computer counted down my distance to destination.

 

Indeed, the workaround, what you did, is obvious in this case. Interesting that it fails with trackback as well, I thought it was a problem with only gpx files or something. If a third person can verify this bug in 2.73b, preferably with an etrex-20, I'll email etrexbeta.

Edited May 8, 2012 by tr_s

[tr_s]

On another note, my ten years old eTrex asks me in what direction the track should be followed when Tracback is pressed. But not the flashy new eTrex 30. This is what I call losing useful things in the development/revision process for sure.

[ChefRd2000]

On another note, my ten years old eTrex asks me in what direction the track should be followed when Tracback is pressed. But not the flashy new eTrex 30. This is what I call losing useful things in the development/revision process for sure.

 

I'm always amazed how this type of thing happens. My fortrex 301... Saving tracks, saving just a portion of a track, reversing tracks... On a device with 4 buttons, no maps... And a b/w screen the size of a quarter... Is simple, straight forward, fast and easy!

 

Then you give the programmer a big color screen, maps, and a pointing device.... And they turn it to crap!?!? How?!?!

 

Does the dude with the chops to actually write the code and deal with all that complexity ... Also design the UI for real people?

[tr_s]

Yup... an example of highly misguided effort - I am certain Garmin representatives are reading this forum so take note.

[ChefRd2000]

Yup... an example of highly misguided effort - I am certain Garmin representatives are reading this forum so take note.

 

If that's true... Garmin, we are here to help you. Just ask!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tr_s]

 

If that's true... Garmin, we are here to help you. Just ask!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Another user told me he'd been in contact with Garmin and yes, they do check these forums frequently. Wouldn't surprise me if the issues I've brought to light with this thread are fixed in the next or next-next firmware update.

[+Volwrath]

But because you ask... yes, I always push goto at the trailhead (defined start), nowhere else.

 

Hmm that must be why my etrex 20 wouldnt do advanced track navigation. I hit goto before I hit the trail. Next time I will try on the start

[+gjhiker]

Added a memory card just to test . Added a few maps to the card. It now forgets where it was going when powered off/on. Yes, a bug!

 

I have observed exactly the same problem with two etrex 20 units I have had. (One was returned for a refund due to an unrelated defect.) Occasionally when power-cycled the device functions correctly however most of the time when turned on several of the features (Compass display, Data fields) do not function while some features (Map) do work OK. This behavior occurred with the version 2.50 firmware that was on the device when I bought it and with all subsequent releases including 2.73. I have also discovered that the device behaves in this erratic manner only when a microSD card is installed; even a blank formatted card! I used a 2GB Sandisk card, the one Garmin recommends! The card works fine when plugged directly into a computer (with an adapter). I tried a Kingston 2 GB card the device seems to work correctly more often. I also occasionally get an alert that I am arriving at the waypoint whenever the unit is booting up regardless of how far away the waypoint is; it can be many miles. This happens on any kind of waypoint; regular or geocache. Three weeks of interaction with technical support at Garmin yielded NO results; they can't seem to figure out what the problem is!

[tr_s]

 

I've never had features like compass etc not work

 

But you own a 20 don't you? The failure lies with the mag. compass of the 30, not the calculated heading compass.

 

The bugs listed in this thread have now been verified with yet another 20 right from the factory. I specifically asked the user not to do anything else with the new gps other than insert a memory card and then try out the bugs. Yup, forgets destination and spits out false arrival messages. The device will be returned.

[tr_s]

Ten hour hike yesterday through the local national park, which I pre-drew in mapsource. From what I saw, I now think that the "Track reversal bug" isn't as simple as the track being followed backwards. It rather seems to be a poor implementation of how the device detects that the track points are being followed.

 

To give an example, let's say we have a track consisting of points P1, P2 and P3.

 

We start at P1. The pointer is then pointing at P2, no question about that. But at what instance should the device start pointing at P3 instead of P2?

Of course, if you get very close to P2, then P2 could count as "visited" and the device should start pointing towards P2. In reality however, you often pass quite far from P2, say a hundred meters, due to inaccuracies in the map and/or a collapsed trail forcing you to walk off trail.

 

What algorithm is used to decide on switching to the next track point is of course a matter of implementation. All I know is that my eTrex-H acts far better for my needs in this regard. Not that much of a serious bug when it comes to hiking as you have much time to look at the mapscreen. May be worse for sailing or hang gliding.

[seldom_sn]

Do trips seem to work the same?

I thought trips were an advanced nuvi thing that didn't apply to handhelds.

Edited May 20, 2012 by seldom_sn

[seldom_sn]

 

To give an example, let's say we have a track consisting of points P1, P2 and P3.

 

We start at P1. The pointer is then pointing at P2, no question about that. But at what instance should the device start pointing at P3 instead of P2?

Of course, if you get very close to P2, then P2 could count as "visited" and the device should start pointing towards P2. In reality however, you often pass quite far from P2, say a hundred meters, due to inaccuracies in the map and/or a collapsed trail forcing you to walk off trail.

With that few points, why don't you use a route? I've only used tracks for hiking, where there were lots of intermediate points but only one start and end.

Edited May 20, 2012 by seldom_sn

[tr_s]

 

To give an example, let's say we have a track consisting of points P1, P2 and P3.

 

We start at P1. The pointer is then pointing at P2, no question about that. But at what instance should the device start pointing at P3 instead of P2?

Of course, if you get very close to P2, then P2 could count as "visited" and the device should start pointing towards P2. In reality however, you often pass quite far from P2, say a hundred meters, due to inaccuracies in the map and/or a collapsed trail forcing you to walk off trail.

With that few points, why don't you use a route? I've only used tracks for hiking, where there were lots of intermediate points but only one start and end.

 

Of course, that was just a conceptual example. My tracks generally consist of on the order of a hundred track points or more.

[+MotorBug]

Don't mean to hijack this but since there is discussion about micro SD cards I'll ask my question.

 

I have an eTrex 30 running 2.70. Yesterday I put in a no-name 8GB card I got off eBay and dragged some calibrated park maps from the Garmin>Custom Maps folder to it. First I tried dragging the whole Custom Maps folder with maps, then just the maps. Neither worked. I see the maps in the SD folder but not visible on the screen. They work fine when I leave them in the Garmin>Custom Maps folder.

 

This is my first time using a SD card in any GPS so I am not familiar with the correct way to install. The 30 manual I downloaded is silent on this. Perhaps I have incorrectly assumed that just dragging from Garmin>Custom Maps to the SD card would work? Any assistance is appreciated.

[tr_s]

Don't mean to hijack this but since there is discussion about micro SD cards I'll ask my question.

 

I have an eTrex 30 running 2.70. Yesterday I put in a no-name 8GB card I got off eBay and dragged some calibrated park maps from the Garmin>Custom Maps folder to it. First I tried dragging the whole Custom Maps folder with maps, then just the maps. Neither worked. I see the maps in the SD folder but not visible on the screen. They work fine when I leave them in the Garmin>Custom Maps folder.

 

This is my first time using a SD card in any GPS so I am not familiar with the correct way to install. The 30 manual I downloaded is silent on this. Perhaps I have incorrectly assumed that just dragging from Garmin>Custom Maps to the SD card would work? Any assistance is appreciated.

 

Is the SD card formatted to FAT32?

Are the custom maps .kmz files?

[seldom_sn]

Don't mean to hijack this but since there is discussion about micro SD cards I'll ask my question.

 

I have an eTrex 30 running 2.70. Yesterday I put in a no-name 8GB card I got off eBay and dragged some calibrated park maps from the Garmin>Custom Maps folder to it. First I tried dragging the whole Custom Maps folder with maps, then just the maps. Neither worked. I see the maps in the SD folder but not visible on the screen. They work fine when I leave them in the Garmin>Custom Maps folder.

 

This is my first time using a SD card in any GPS so I am not familiar with the correct way to install. The 30 manual I downloaded is silent on this. Perhaps I have incorrectly assumed that just dragging from Garmin>Custom Maps to the SD card would work? Any assistance is appreciated.

The folder name is \Garmin\CustomMaps (no space). The CustomMap files should be KMZ format. IMG format files should go in the \Garmin folder.

[seldom_sn]

I know certain maps will work from the card (.img files), but will custom maps??

I keep all mine on the card.

[+gjhiker]

I have been able to evaluate software release 2.80 over the past several weeks to determine if the problem with "forgetting waypoints" has been solved. The conclusion, in a word, is NO! The etrex 20 STILL forgets where it is going after a power-cycle; but only about 30% of the time. Bizarre! Typically I select a waypoint, check the direction and distance turn off the device and start walking. After 15-30 minutes I turn the device back on to check my progress. About 70% of the time the etrex 20 "remembers" the waypoint I had selected; the other 30% of the time it seems to have "forgotten" the waypoint. I have to select it again from the Recent Finds list. (Incidentally, I have NOT been using the device with a microSD card inserted.) It would be nice if Garmin could solve this problem. It is extremely annoying!

 

Another problem, not so annoying, is that the device seems to decide that I have arrived at my destination at random. Often when I am still miles away it will bring up the Arriving at Destination dialog.

[tr_s]

I have been able to evaluate software release 2.80 over the past several weeks to determine if the problem with "forgetting waypoints" has been solved. The conclusion, in a word, is NO! The etrex 20 STILL forgets where it is going after a power-cycle; but only about 30% of the time. Bizarre! Typically I select a waypoint, check the direction and distance turn off the device and start walking. After 15-30 minutes I turn the device back on to check my progress. About 70% of the time the etrex 20 "remembers" the waypoint I had selected; the other 30% of the time it seems to have "forgotten" the waypoint. I have to select it again from the Recent Finds list. (Incidentally, I have NOT been using the device with a microSD card inserted.) It would be nice if Garmin could solve this problem. It is extremely annoying!

 

Another problem, not so annoying, is that the device seems to decide that I have arrived at my destination at random. Often when I am still miles away it will bring up the Arriving at Destination dialog.

 

Oh yes it is annoying to the point I stopped using the 30 and am now back to the eTrex H. Have both the problems in my device, and they have been present in every other eTrex 20/30 device I've seen with my own eyes. Never saw "Arriving at destination" occur at random though, it just occurs at boot up even if you are miles away (maybe that's what you meant?).

 

I suspect the problem is simple. Garmin firmware initializes a lot of subsystems in the device at the same time. They do not care about waiting for the right data to assemble before initializing the subsystem dependent on that data. Distance to destination is some variable set to zero at boot time, and the routines that act and bring up an "Arriving at dest." dialog are initialized while that variable is still zero. Something similar causes device to "forget" waypoints.

 

I have to ask ... if you've set a destination why are you turning the device off and then on again anyway? I leave mine on all the time ...

 

To save on power could be one good reason? Why let the device chug batteries if you don't need it to?

Edited July 8, 2012 by tr_s

[+gjhiker]

The reason I turn the GPS off and then on again is primarily to save power. Fully charged NiMH batteries don't seem to last as long as Garmin's marketing department thinks they should. Remembering where it is going has never been a problem with the four other Garmin devices I have owned; only with both of the etrex 20s I have owned (one was returned for other defects).

 

The "Arriving at destination" message does frequently show up at boot up but also occasionally just pops up while hiking along with the device on; even if I am still miles from the destination.

 

I will probably continue to use the etrex 20 since it has a lot of nice features and just hope Garmin can get their act together and fix the problems. Based on past experience I'm not holding my breath.

[jholly]

I suggest you get better batteries. I use Sanyo Eneloops 2500 and they last me for about 3 days of walking, 6 to 8 hours each day. Never had to consider turning them off to save power

I use regular NiMH batteries. They last me two days of caching, up to 10 hours a day. You must have some really cruddy batteries. Consider buying new ones. Or turn the backlight off. You dont't need it on all the time. Mine cycles off after 15 seconds.

[tr_s]

I suggest you get better batteries. I use Sanyo Eneloops 2500 and they last me for about 3 days of walking, 6 to 8 hours each day. Never had to consider turning them off to save power

 

Got similar figures from 2300 mAh cells (20+ hours). I still want to be able to properly turn off the device. Something which can really drain the battery is however "Track up" map setting, it takes a lot of cpu to re-render the map in the right direction it seems. I suggest using North up and rotating the device manually when you look at it instead.

 

Important for NiMH cells are also a good charger, I actually suggest slow chargers, it seems many manufacturers cannot get to grip with the charge algorithms in high current chargers and you'll ruin cells really quickly - which will often show up as bad capacity. I only use slow chargers and have a bunch of heavily used 10 year old cells that still perform to almost the mark capacity of 1600.