Puzzle

[Obie21]

I trying find out what people think about the Difficulty Rating on a puzzle. A lot of people put the how hard the puzzle in the Difficulty rating. I chose to make the difficulty of the puzzle separate.(i believe the difficulty is in how hard the find the cache is. i put in the cache page a puzzle rating(how hard is the puzzle. i ask for your opinion on it. thanks

Edited February 27, 2012 by Obie21

[+steben6]

I trying find out what people think about the Difficulty Rating on a puzzle. A lot of people put the how hard the puzzle in the Difficulty rating. I chose to make the difficulty of the puzzle separate.(i believe the difficulty is in how hard the find the cache is. i put in the cache page a puzzle rating(how hard is the puzzle. i ask for your opinion on it. thanks

I think everybody should cache the way they want to. However, since you ask, and as a big fan of both solving and hiding puzzle caches, I believe the difficulty rating should reflect both the puzzle and the cache. I can't imagine spending a bunch of time solving a tough puzzle in order to log a cache, and then only get credit for a "1.5" difficulty because the cache itself is easy to find. In my opinion, the difficulty of solving the puzzle should be included in the difficulty of finding the cache. There isn't a separate category for "puzzle difficulty."

[+niraD]

Around here, the difficulty rating of puzzle caches generally reflects the overall difficulty of solving the puzzle and finding the cache. When the hide itself is easy, then the difficulty rating is essentially the difficulty of the puzzle. But I've seen puzzle caches where the hide is as challenging as—or even more challenging than—the puzzle. For those, the difficulty rating is higher than the puzzle would warrant.

 

IMHO, the ideal system would use terrain for the trip to GZ, difficulty for finding the cache, and a third rating for whatever other challenge the cache presents. This third rating could cover the challenge of a puzzle, the challenge of retrieving a cache that is easy to spot but difficult to retrieve, etc. But that isn't the system we have.

[+Totem Clan]

I think it should be how hard it is to find the cache. Since you have to have the coords in order to find the cache, then the difficulty of the puzzle should be factored in there as well.

 

I have a 5 Difficulty cache because it requires you to have a specail piece of equipment to solve the cache. The hide is about a 2 maybe a 2.5 at best but you are still have to have extra equipment to find it so it's a 5.

[+CanadianRockies]

I use the "difficulty" rating to indicate the combination of how hard it is to solve the puzzle then find the cache at the computed coordinates, since I think people should get an extra "reward" for solving hard puzzles.

 

If I wanted to tell people how hard it is to simply find the physical cache once you have the coordinates, then I'd put that in the puzzle cache description.

Edited February 27, 2012 by CanadianRockies

[+dprovan]

I think it should be how hard it is to find the cache. Since you have to have the coords in order to find the cache, then the difficulty of the puzzle should be factored in there as well.

Yes, I think this says it in a nutshell. After all, why stop at the puzzle? Why not ignore the effectiveness of the camo?

[+PROBOB]

I agree with the others and that's how I've done my puzzle caches... I think it would be cool if there was a 3rd attribute that was just for a puzzle/challenge rating, but since there isn't - I believe the difficulty should include having to solve the puzzle or achieve the challenge. If you think about it, how hard the puzzle is does determine how difficult it is for the cacher to determine the container's location and sign it. The terrain remains the same as it would be.

[7rxc]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

[Trinity's Crew]

So far it's unanimous, and I'll keep it that way. Puzzle difficulty should be factored into the overall difficulty. It's part of finding the cache.

[+Semper Questio]

I see the difficulty and terrain ratings as a "worst case" rating. If the puzzle is the hard part, rate based on that. If it is in finding the cache, use that aspect. The point is to give a quick "fair warning" when people are looking at simple cache lists. In the cache description, any conditions that affect the D/T as it is rated, or any variations from that rating, can be discussed be they puzzle difficulty, muggles, finding or accessing the cache, etc.

[+Totem Clan]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

[7rxc]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

Looks promising... the description of the Difficulty that is.

Wish I wasn't quite so busy this week... but I've got parts of it. The confusion part. Guess all isn't doom and gloom.

Will get back to you.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+NYPaddleCacher]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

 

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

[+Totem Clan]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

 

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

 

Did they get the coords from a friend?

 

It's not that hard once you figure out what you need to solve it, but you still have to have the object to solve it.

[+TheBlizzles]

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

 

I agree, I would not think of that puzzle's "specialized" equipment resulting in a D5 ... seems like a pretty quick solve once I had the "equipment". By this logic, seems like MANY of the puzzles I have done would be D5. In any case, isn't the "specialized equipment" originally meant to refer to the terrain rating?

[7rxc]

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

 

I agree, I would not think of that puzzle's "specialized" equipment resulting in a D5 ... seems like a pretty quick solve once I had the "equipment". By this logic, seems like MANY of the puzzles I have done would be D5. In any case, isn't the "specialized equipment" originally meant to refer to the terrain rating?

From my readings of the guidelines, I believe the "specialized equipment" thing is an either or both type spec.

When the equipment is needed to deal with terrain (climbing or marine stuff) it goes with Terrain to indicate that fact.

In this case the "specialized equipment" (so far) relates to solving the puzzle itself, so it goes with difficulty.

As for what the SE is, there are many variables in play from what I see so far, some easy to see and some a bit more subtle.

I haven't and haven't seen any indication of a solution yet though. I've only had a bit of time to play around. Like NYPC says, the concept isn't that hard, but... the devil is in the details until you see them all.

 

Doug 7rxc having fun anyway.

[+TheBlizzles]

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

I agree, I would not think of that puzzle's "specialized" equipment resulting in a D5 ... seems like a pretty quick solve once I had the "equipment". By this logic, seems like MANY of the puzzles I have done would be D5. In any case, isn't the "specialized equipment" originally meant to refer to the terrain rating?

From my readings of the guidelines, I believe the "specialized equipment" thing is an either or both type spec.When the equipment is needed to deal with terrain (climbing or marine stuff) it goes with Terrain to indicate that fact.In this case the "specialized equipment" (so far) relates to solving the puzzle itself, so it goes with difficulty.As for what the SE is, there are many variables in play from what I see so far, some easy to see and some a bit more subtle.I haven't and haven't seen any indication of a solution yet though. I've only had a bit of time to play around. Like NYPC says, the concept isn't that hard, but... the devil is in the details until you see them all.Doug 7rxc having fun anyway.

 

Fair enough. I have certainly done my fair share of puzzles that appear easy on the surface like this one. No doubt there could be subtleties that make it more difficult than it initially appears. But, since I am likely to never be in the area, I probably will not spend the time to get to the bottom of it ... although my interest in piqued

[7rxc]

Fair enough. I have certainly done my fair share of puzzles that appear easy on the surface like this one. No doubt there could be subtleties that make it more difficult than it initially appears. But, since I am likely to never be in the area, I probably will not spend the time to get to the bottom of it ... although my interest in piqued

 

There are a lot of cachers who like to solve distant puzzles. Or lets say try to solve them. I've done a fair number of tough ones, even a few downright hard ones. It's fun like many other things. Not all of us have weekly new caches to seek. Plus winter is set in serious around here. I checked for your local.. You are closer than I am by almost half.. plus I'm in another Country.. Someday I might get to travel there or not. NOT the point. Do I think people should give up their normal cache patterns to do this, NOPE.

I like to think that people like a bit of a challenge or mental workout from time to time. Besides, not all puzzles are WAY over there. I have one I'm trying that's only a hundred miles by road away... two years now, and worse than that, I gave one of the finders the hint they needed to find it.. and don't know what I said! I guess it wasn't what I said itself, but it got his mind engaged the right way to solve it. OR he's just messing with me (likely).

 

Doug 7rxc

[Obie21]

Geocache Rating System

 

Answer the following questions based on the most difficult parts of the cache:

 

Is an overnight stay likely?

Will it take more than a day to hike in, find the cache, and hike out again?

 

No

Yes

 

What is the length of the hike?

This is the length of the hike from the most logical parking area to the cache.

 

Less than 1/2 mile

Less than 1 km

1/2 mile to 2 miles

About 1 to 3 km

2 miles to 10 miles

About 3 to 16 km

Over 10 miles

Over 16 km

 

What is the trail like?

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet.

 

Paved pathways

Asphalt, concrete, or boardwalks.

Well marked/defined hardpack

Well packed dirt. You could ride a standard bicycle or push a stroller on this trail without too much effort.

Other trail types

Could be gravel, sand, mud, etc. May be an animal trail. If you're riding a bike, it had better be a mountain bike.

Trail? What trail?

There is no real trail. Wheels are out. May be following a stream bed or be very rocky.

 

Is the path bushy or overgrown?

Overgrowth refers to any plant or other substance that impedes the path. Keep in mind that conditions change; rate based on your understanding of worst-case conditions.

 

Not at all

There is no overgrowth at all.

Some light overgrowth

An adult could step over or around this.

Yeah, it's pretty overgrown

It's waist-high or so, or it may be thorny or have poison plants.

The overgrowth is very heavy

I can't see the other side! Some type of machete or other cutting device is probably needed. Very likely to have thorns or poison plants.

 

What is the terrain elevation like?

How hard is the steepest part of the cache?

 

Basically flat

Only slight elevation changes. Easy to do in a wheelchair, stroller, bike, etc.

Some elevation changes

Changes are slight enough that someone could ride a bike up such a slope.

Steep elevation changes

Change is steep. Probably could not ride a bike up this slope, but could push it up.

Severe elevation changes

The only way up the slope is to use your hands. Going down may require the use of your backside.

 

How easy is it to find the cache?

Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

 

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find.

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

which mean every puzzle cache would rated a 5. so you tell me that for explain if said @$^&* @*!)^ would be a 5 star cache, but this puzzle is very easy

[+Totem Clan]

which mean every puzzle cache would rated a 5. so you tell me that for explain if said @$^&* @*!)^ would be a 5 star cache, but this puzzle is very easy

Which is why the 5 should be changed to something else. Everyone sees a 5 as the most difficult, but when the system is used per the instructions there are many 5s that aren't.

[+power69]

most of my 5 stars are puzzles that are hard.

I got 3 trads that are 5 star and find to dnf ratio is about 50/50.

it would be nice is there was a star rating for "puzzle" as well as difficulty and terrain.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

 

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

 

Did they get the coords from a friend?

 

It's not that hard once you figure out what you need to solve it, but you still have to have the object to solve it.

 

I don't think that a PAF was used. It was also just one piece of a had many other other puzzles within the puzzle, many of which much harder than the one like yours. I can't really mention how they might have solved that piece without giving away yours.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Fair enough. I have certainly done my fair share of puzzles that appear easy on the surface like this one. No doubt there could be subtleties that make it more difficult than it initially appears. But, since I am likely to never be in the area, I probably will not spend the time to get to the bottom of it ... although my interest in piqued

 

There are a lot of cachers who like to solve distant puzzles. Or lets say try to solve them. I've done a fair number of tough ones, even a few downright hard ones. It's fun like many other things. Not all of us have weekly new caches to seek. Plus winter is set in serious around here. I checked for your local.. You are closer than I am by almost half.. plus I'm in another Country.. Someday I might get to travel there or not. NOT the point. Do I think people should give up their normal cache patterns to do this, NOPE.

 

 

I've done quite a few puzzle caches that are far away from home (some more than 5000 miles away). Whenever I know I'm going to be traveling somewhere whether it's 50 miles away or 5000 I'll check that area for puzzle caches that I might want to solve before I travel. In one case, I asked a CO for clarification on a puzzle cache in South Africa, started up a nice email exchange for a bit and got an invitation to meet and go caching with a local (I wasn't able to do so and never did complete that puzzle). In other cases, I've collaborated with local cachers on a "first to solve" (and got 2nd to find) on a puzzle 400 miles away.

 

I think of working on puzzles and going geocaching as mutually exclusive activities. It's pretty easy to find a few minutes while I'm having coffee in the morning or in the evening when I'm home with my family to work on a puzzle. Finding the time to actually get out and look for caches is a lot more difficult for me. That said, puzzle solve *might* change my "normal cache patterns" only because by solving a puzzle cache I now have the choice between looking for that cache or a traditional and I'd usually look for the puzzle cache first.

[+Totem Clan]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

 

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

 

Did they get the coords from a friend?

 

It's not that hard once you figure out what you need to solve it, but you still have to have the object to solve it.

 

I don't think that a PAF was used. It was also just one piece of a had many other other puzzles within the puzzle, many of which much harder than the one like yours. I can't really mention how they might have solved that piece without giving away yours.

I don't think mine is the type you are thinking of. It IS unsolvable without the 'equipment' no ifs ands or buts.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

How about, the CO expands the RATINGs a bit in the Description?

 

Something like overall a D4... the puzzle is a D3 and the hide a D3.5 in T3 area.

I know those may not make sense, but think that sometimes a bunch of factors can combine to make a harder overall effect.

 

Doug 7rxc

You mean like this one?

 

I recognized the type of puzzle and what piece of special equipment would be required right away though it's arguable whether the required piece of equipment is really "specialized" but I understand why the item is specific. I did another puzzle cache that used the exact same technique and someone claimed that they were able to do it without obtaining that specific item.

 

Did they get the coords from a friend?

 

It's not that hard once you figure out what you need to solve it, but you still have to have the object to solve it.

 

I don't think that a PAF was used. It was also just one piece of a had many other other puzzles within the puzzle, many of which much harder than the one like yours. I can't really mention how they might have solved that piece without giving away yours.

I don't think mine is the type you are thinking of. It IS unsolvable without the 'equipment' no ifs ands or buts.

 

Now that sounds like a challenge!

[+TheBlizzles]

Fair enough. I have certainly done my fair share of puzzles that appear easy on the surface like this one. No doubt there could be subtleties that make it more difficult than it initially appears. But, since I am likely to never be in the area, I probably will not spend the time to get to the bottom of it ... although my interest in piqued

There are a lot of cachers who like to solve distant puzzles. Or lets say try to solve them. I've done a fair number of tough ones, even a few downright hard ones. It's fun like many other things. Not all of us have weekly new caches to seek. Plus winter is set in serious around here. I checked for your local.. You are closer than I am by almost half.. plus I'm in another Country.. Someday I might get to travel there or not. NOT the point. Do I think people should give up their normal cache patterns to do this, NOPE.

I've done quite a few puzzle caches that are far away from home (some more than 5000 miles away). Whenever I know I'm going to be traveling somewhere whether it's 50 miles away or 5000 I'll check that area for puzzle caches that I might want to solve before I travel. In one case, I asked a CO for clarification on a puzzle cache in South Africa, started up a nice email exchange for a bit and got an invitation to meet and go caching with a local (I wasn't able to do so and never did complete that puzzle). In other cases, I've collaborated with local cachers on a "first to solve" (and got 2nd to find) on a puzzle 400 miles away. I think of working on puzzles and going geocaching as mutually exclusive activities. It's pretty easy to find a few minutes while I'm having coffee in the morning or in the evening when I'm home with my family to work on a puzzle. Finding the time to actually get out and look for caches is a lot more difficult for me. That said, puzzle solve *might* change my "normal cache patterns" only because by solving a puzzle cache I now have the choice between looking for that cache or a traditional and I'd usually look for the puzzle cache first.

 

I do the same thing. In fact just last month I traveled 2000 miles away and all the caches I planned to find (in 3 new states for me) were puzzles that I solved in the days ahead and en route. I too had some great email exchanges with some of the COs and a couple were nice enough to verify that the containers were still in place after not being found for quite some time so I could log them when I got there.

 

Puzzles are the caches that I enjoy the most and having one solved can certainly be a focus for my route planning. That said I agree that actually finding the time to get out to find them can be harder than solving them. I currently have around 250 puzzles solved in AZ that I have not gotten out to grab ... although next time I am near them I can swing by.

 

In this case, I do not see myself "swinging" by OK any time soon. So would rather focus my efforts a bit closer to my travels ... although Totem Clan is certainly tempting me to see how quickly I could solve this one