Santa Clause Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 It takes money to do or host anything on the web. It seems that those who are willing to support geocaching should receive benefit from their support. I would like to propose a one week "timer" on newly posted caches. Those who are subscribing members would have immediate access--membership benefit. Those who are not subscribers would still have full access to new public caches--but with a one week delay from their being posted. This way, no one loses out if they still want to participate, yet benefit is provided to members and may encourage more to financially participate. What do you think? Link to comment
+Markwell Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 You can do this already with "Members Only" caches. Not even necessarily a timer - you can have it so that only paying members have access to the coordinates for the duration of the cache or for only a week. As a paying member, you can change the status of the cache from Members Only to full access whenever you want. Markwell Chicago Geocaching Link to comment
+Criminal Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Suddenly the server went into slow motion. I was responding but was beat to the punch by Markwell. I think we have that already. It’s called a “members only” cache, you can check a box when you fill out the cache report, and only members can pull up the page. It isn’t a compulsory feature, the hider decides. This is as it should be. I want everyone to find my caches, member or not. My opinion is that this is supposed to be a free game, I will not make such a members only cache. http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Link to comment
+Frolickin Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Santa Clause:Those who are subscribing members would have immediate access--membership benefit. Those who are not subscribers would still have full access to new public caches--but with a one week delay from their being posted. What incentive would there be for a non-member to post caches to geocaching.com under that proposal? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose Link to comment
Santa Clause Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 I completely agree--Let's keep it free. But why not also increase the resources, support and development. The problem with a member only cache is that it IS limiting who can access it. I'm not planning on creating any of those myself. With my proposal of a DELAYED roll out, no one is denied the ability to find a cache whether posted by paying member or non-paying participant. EVERYONE still can play for free! However, it does provide a greater incentive to become a SUPPORTING member. Even a non-member posting a cache would still have people finding it. It would just give those who are willing to "put some money where their mouth is" a head start. This doesn't seem less fair to me, but more fair. What do y'all think! quote:Originally posted by Criminal:Suddenly the server went into slow motion. I was responding but was beat to the punch by Markwell. _I think we have that already. It’s called a “members only” cache, you can check a box when you fill out the cache report, and only members can pull up the page. It isn’t a compulsory feature, the hider decides. This is as it should be. I want everyone to find my caches, member or not._ My _opinion_ is that this is _supposed_ to be a free game, I will not make such a members only cache. http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Link to comment
Santa Clause Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 What incentive is there NOW for a nonmember to post a cache? I don't see anything changing with more or less incentive under my proposal. Their cache still gets posted; it's still accessible to everyone. The only diffeence is the timing of when everyone--including non-paying participants--gets access. Seems more fair that those pay get to play first. I'm NOT in favor of proposals that would eliminate people from participating, but I believe those that financially support the game should, by the nature of their investment into something anyone can enjoy, should be allowed first preference. quote:Originally posted by Frolickin: quote:Originally posted by Santa Clause:Those who are subscribing members would have immediate access--membership benefit. Those who are not subscribers would still have full access to new public caches--but with a one week delay from their being posted. What incentive would there be for a non-member to post caches to geocaching.com under that proposal? Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose Link to comment
+Mr. Snazz Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Geocaches can be found by anybody, not just those who use this site. What if somebody happens to find a cache the day after it is physically placed, comes on to the site and wants to log it, but can't locate it because they aren't a paid member and the cache hasn't been listed long enough for non-paid members to view it? Come to think of it, what happens if a non-cacher finds a members-only cache, and wants to log their find, under the current system? Link to comment
+welch Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Santa Clause:What incentive is there NOW for a nonmember to post a cache? What incentive is there for ANYONE place a cache? Im guessing beside the fact they get the chance to spend their own time and money, that one gets the 'warm fuzzies' from showing someone else an interesting perhaps unknown location. I dont see the point in placing any sort of time limit on the caches. And even if such a thing was set up, I think the cache placer should get to decide if their cache has a timer, and when it goes off? OH WAIT! Its already that way... As Markwell points out, a Charter can change their caches to MOCs and back again, any time they want. Link to comment
+Frolickin Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Santa Clause:What incentive is there NOW for a nonmember to post a cache? The incentive for me, a non-charter member, to place a cache is that the local cachers will receive enjoyment from what I place. Why should anyone have to wait? I placed a cache this weekend to go along with a traveling cache I had picked up. I feel that a traveling cache should be placed where something else can be found should someone else claim it first. Under your proposal, the local cachers (we do not have MO only caches in my area) would have to wait a week b4 seeking that traveling cache. That does not seem sporting. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose Link to comment
+ClayJar Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 ...but perhaps we could use a bit more advertising. The Pocket Query function is the very definition of incentive. As the set of GPX tools matures, it becomes more and more and *more* valuable. For my part, I can say that I am adding as many useful features to Watcher as I can (as fast as I can, too), and with each new feature, more people are finding the things they really wanted. Just last night I added a sortable state/country column and the ability to switch between miles and kilometers (both at the request of a geocacher in Denmark... that was cool). I've refrained from pushing Watcher too much so far, since it's still in a very fluid state. Many (most?) of the early adopters are having the time of their geocaching lives using Watcher with their Pocket Queries, and when you throw in GpxView for PocketPC 2002, gpx2html (works great for PalmOS if you add Plucker), GPX Spinner for whatever you want, and GPSBabel for converting GPX to practically whatever file format you can think of, I'd say that Pocket Queries are *quite* the killer app of membership. Perhaps I should consider creating some "GPX for Geocachers" overview documentation, once the next few Watcher features are finished. Then we can point people to one place for a quick, but thorough, overview of all the reasons they probably *do* want to spend a little money supporting Geocaching.com, since the rewards of contribution are indeed so many and so great. Link to comment
+Sissy-n-CR Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:Come to think of it, what happens if a non-cacher finds a members-only cache, and wants to log their find, under the current system? Whoa! Good point! Maybe Jeremy can incorporate passwords into the caches pages so either Members or those with a password can get in? Maybe a groups master word for team play or private group caches? (Just thinking out loud...) CR Link to comment
+Ozarktroutbum Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 quote: The Pocket Query function is the very definition of incentive. As the set of GPX tools matures, it becomes more and more and *more* valuable. For my part, I can say that I am adding as many useful features to Watcher as I can (as fast as I can, too), and with each new feature, more people are finding the things they really wanted. Just last night I added a sortable state/country column I agree with Clay. I've been a non charter for over a year and after seeing and playing with a few GPX apps I was more than happy to pony up for a charter. First shot at a new cache wouldnt have been incentive enough for me, and if I place any more caches, I want anyone and everyone to have at it as quick as they can. When GPSr's are outlawed, only Outlaws will have GPSr's. Link to comment
+Criminal Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 OK, I'm a charter and not for the features mentioned. I have absolutely no idea what any of that pocket query or gpx stuff is, does, or how it is supposed work. I can't find anything on the site that explains it to me in terms I could understand. So what's the point? It sounds like some sort of deep computer knowledge I do not have. Is there a place on the site, or off, that explains it in simple terms? Have I not looked in the right place? What is it? What can it do for Criminal? How can Criminal use it? Is my Handspring Visor sufficient? How do I make it work for me, step by painful step? I don’t know computer language; I’m strictly a point and clicker. I can rebuild the physical portions of the computer but I have no knowledge of DOS or anything along those lines. I have a new and limited knowledge of HTML, very limited. http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Link to comment
+Team RedCow Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 If I wanted to pay for something I'd go to the Groundspeak website and buy something. I've been out of work for seven months and being forced to pay for this sport would necessitate my dropping out completely. Food and bills come first. And I would have absolutely no incentive to ever post a cache again if only paying members could get it, even if only for the first week. I'm not trying to be contentious, but the cost (or lack thereof) was one of the attractions for this hobby. It gave me something to do with my son that I could afford. Besides actually being fun. Link to comment
+Markwell Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Criminal:Is there a place on the site, or off, that explains it in simple terms? Have I not looked in the right place? Not yet. I'm building a portion of my FAQ this afternoon to do just that. Check back to the Markwell FAQ tomorrow and see if it answers your questions. Markwell Chicago Geocaching Link to comment
Santa Clause Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 However, NON-supporting members cannot place limiters on their caches. I proposing this done be automatically to all caches at their initial posting. I'd like to see more support developed that allows the site to be more developed like people have requested in other forums such as Advanced Search Capabilities. Having been a former webmaster, I know it takes time and or money to develop or install third party additions to a website. Why shouldn't we be supporting this game/project/websiter. And one way to encourage support would be to more greatly benefit members such as delayed release of caches (Again, I'm proposing 1 week) to non-supporting members. Link to comment
Santa Clause Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 I'm not proposing ANY additional cost. It would still be free to anyone and everyone. Link to comment
+Frolickin Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Santa Clause:Why shouldn't we be supporting this game/project/websiter. Placing a cache (well hidden, maintained, etc.) supports the game geocaching. Keeping the game free so everyone can play with minimum investment supports the game geocaching. Delaying the posting of my coordinates because I have chosen not to pay a fee is not something that endears me to a game. Fro. ________________________________________ Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose Link to comment
+Markwell Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Criminal:Is there a place on the site, or off, that explains it in _simple_ terms? Newly added to my FAQ: Pocket Queries. Markwell Chicago Geocaching Link to comment
+welch Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Santa Clause:Why shouldn't we be supporting this game/project/websiter. And one way to encourage support would be to more greatly benefit members such as delayed release of caches (Again, I'm proposing 1 week) to non-supporting members. I support this site in many ways. A few ways being listing caches AND encouraging other non-geocachers to check out this hobby/sport. FWIW- When I place a cache I want people to visit it, and in doing so, hopefully have an enjoyable time outdoors... Placing time limits, blocking certain parties, and otherwise limiting those that might visit the cache is not NOT going to help me do that! I want to encourage others to geocache, regardless of the amount of financial support they have or have not given to this site. If they in turn deside they should support this site (using whatever means) then wonderful! And if not, well thats their choice. Link to comment
+Kodak's4 Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I'd question whether restricting the first week of a caches life to 'members only' is an advantage for the members or a penalty. When I first started geocaching, I was pretty gung ho to be first to the cache. Ah, the thrill of firsties! After a while, I realized that perhaps 40% of the caches have some problem when first posted (typically bad coordinates but sometimes other things) which preclude finding the cache or make it much, much harder. These days, I often wait until a few other people have 'shaken the bugs out' before I head out. It saves banging my head against the startup problem, and it makes caching a much more pleasant experience. (but, perhaps, less challenging) In my mind, restricting who can search for all caches for the first week just means I'd end up waiting longer for the bugs to be worked out, and I'd view that as a penalty, not a bonus In any case, even if I were still actively going for 'firsties', I don't see restricting the caches for the first week as an advantage. What's the thrill of getting there first when you know that a bunch of the competitors have been hobbled? No challenge, no thrill. No thrill, I view that as a penalty. Link to comment
+Criminal Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Thanks Markwell, I’ll check it out when I get home tonight. To drive another nail in this thread, We have enough rules already! Really, we don’t need any obstacles thrown up in the form of time limits. One of the goals of Groundspeak was that this site would be free (I think it’s one of the goals, didn’t I read that somewhere?) Nonetheless, the site navigation is still a bit tricky (try to find the cache gallery!) and if someone new to the game were to come on and see that there were no caches in his/her area, they may decide to back burner the whole thing. I said, as did others, that I want people to find my caches, and I want them to find them interesting and challenging. I have chosen not to discriminate against anyone just because they haven’t or cannot support the site with a membership. I’m not a charter member for the features, I don’t know how to use them…….yet. I think many who decide that geocaching is a fun game will become members. They will not become members just to see if the game is fun. EDIT: Typo http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Link to comment
+Sissy-n-CR Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I don't think there should be any restrictions on the core of the game. I do like the MOC idea and will probably use it in the future just to give those who have contributed to the site a chance to be first finder on some of our caches. We do tend to put a couple of decent items in our caches and I'm tired of seeing logs from non-contributing cachers that read, "took pocketknife, left 2 quarters." After a little while, it'll be made completely open. However, most will be open right off the bat. I think the more open caches there are the less likely a new cacher will get bored with the hobby until they are thoroughly hooked. So, no, I have to vote NO on an automatic 1 week wait for non-members to view caches. I think to promote the site and get people to pay, you have to have more features. The support part of the site, not the core, is where you'll draw more money I feel. Just my humble opinion. CR Link to comment
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