Puzzle Caches w/out All The Pieces

[+The Ravens]

Here's one for ya. There is a puzzle cache in my area that was set out in September of '09 all in good fun to frustrate a fellow cacher. The cache has become a wild goose chase of sorts. Myself and a few others have been wrangled in to help solve/find/partake in the adventure.

 

Here is where a problem lies, I believe, and could be a guideline violation but can't seem to pin it down. Is there a guideline the states that when it comes to puzzle caches that all the pieces to the puzzle have to be in place and obtainable before submission? To me, it should be a no-brainer that all puzzle pieces should be in place before cache submission, but I cannot find where that is stated in the guidelines. All I could find is:

Your cache should be in place and ready to hunt at the time your cache page is submitted for review.

This says nothing about components to puzzles.

 

I believe that the final cache w/log is there ready to be found but there's an unknown number of TB(s) that haven't been released yet that give clues to the final. This means not all pieces to the puzzle are in place to solve/find the cache.

[Andronicus]

That sounds like a fun puzzle. I was thinking of doing one like that last year. But I don't have the extra cache to keep buying replacement TB as people steal them. I thought there was a requirement that the puzzle be solvable.

[Andronicus]

Here it is

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

The "catch-all" of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Andronicus

[+The Ravens]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

[+TripCyclone]

Hey thanks Ravens. That reminds me that I need to finish getting the replacement clues out for my Mystery puzzle before I leave town next week. I keep getting busy with other stuff and have been meaning to go out and replace the old clues with the new ones, along with replacing a few missing ones that have been reported. Guess I have some work to do in the morning before the heat takes over.

[Andronicus]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

If you are sure that not all the clues are avalable, you could

 

a. send a note to the reviewer

b. ask the CO for the info

[+GeoGeeBee]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

 

You have two choices:

 

1) put the TB's on your watchlist so you can see when they are released,

 

or

 

2) put the cache on your ignore list.

 

Or you can contact a reviewer and try to get it archived, but why would you want to be a jerk?

[+Isonzo Karst]

Starting with the cache owner would be my first choice; suggest to the cache owner that they disable it, as it's not yet findable. Of course, it's possible that they'll tell you that it IS findable, that you've misunderstood the design. Perhaps there's a backdoor? I've seen that on a cache with clues on TBs, but also a puzzle on the cache page. Devious.....

 

Or you can contact a reviewer and try to get it archived, but why would you want to be a jerk?

 

The reviewer might just disable it, pending the cache being findable. An archive would probably be temporary in any case. If the cache cannot be found, getting it disable or archived is appropriate.

[+dfx]

The reviewer might just disable it, pending the cache being findable. An archive would probably be temporary in any case. If the cache cannot be found, getting it disable or archived is appropriate.

or, my favorite reviewer action, retract it!

[+StealthRT]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

 

You have two choices:

 

1) put the TB's on your watchlist so you can see when they are released,

 

or

 

2) put the cache on your ignore list.

 

Or you can contact a reviewer and try to get it archived, but why would you want to be a jerk?

Why be a jerk?

 

Really?

 

Anyone who knows me will tell you I’m not into cachers becoming keystone geo cops. I really don’t care that much about your cache. It’s your contribution. Thanks for adding to the pool.

 

I’m also all for challenging caches. I appreciate a challenge. I even have one out there myself that I know some have looked at and just turned away from. It’s been found plenty of times and is far from impossible. It’s just not everyone’s cup of tea. One type of cache that is not my cup of tea are scuba caches. I don’t dislike them necessarily. I just don’t do them. I should say I really can’t do them. Too challenging for my life skill level. I have a friend that loves them. She is certified scuba. I am only certified treadwater. I don’t complain that such caches are beyond me, though. I appreciate challenging caches and even appreciate caches that I will never have the ability to find.

 

I’m also all for your right to plant and publish a type of cache that I personally hate to do. I could tell you about specific types of cache hides that I loathe, but I do not begrudge you if you happen to plant one or ten of them. The fact is, very few actually know the types of caches I don’t like. Maybe four people and only two of them are cachers. I generally just don’t talk about it, because I respect all caches regardless of the personal enjoyment that I may or may not receive from them. I respect your right to enjoy those caches that I do not enjoy. I even respect LPCs and your right to plant them and find them.

 

So I’m not into telling other cachers how to do their planting, I like a challenging cache, and I don’t even tend to gripe about my personal cache peeves. But a cache that literally CANNOT be found? Seriously? You really think that a cache that has been planted that absolutely CANNOT be found IS and SHOULD BE viable?

 

I submit that by definition a published cache must be able to be found or it is not a cache. A cache that cannot be found is something else. It is litter.

 

I don’t have many “lines” that cannot be crossed. Publishing an unfindable cache in geocaching is a line that simply cannot be crossed. Do NOT publish a cache that CANNOT be found. Especially one that is going to take hundreds of dollars and days of work and energy to NOT find.

 

So multiple geocachers in an effort to find this unfindable cache have each spent into the three figures, EACH, in the pursuit of the cache before figuring out it was bogus. Gas and canoe rentals are not cheap these days. Each of these cachers were willing to make the fiscal investment… but of course, based on the reasonable assumption that a published cache, offered enough skill and energy, might actually be found.

 

I don’t even want to get into the whole time away from family issue. Many of us make those sacrifices. But of course, again, based on the reasonable assumption that a published cache, offered enough skill and energy might actually be found.

 

Beyond all the time, energy, money, and time away from family that has been wasted on an unfindable cache, the “rules” on this cache keep getting added and changed at the whim of the cache owner. So from week-to-week and month-to-month nobody knows what they are really even allowed to do to make an effort to find the cache. Updates are made to the rules of the cache on the page without note postings to notify cachers. So hopefully you reread the rules with regularity or you might violate one without being aware of it and have to be quarantined for some time.

 

In fact, I just brought up the cache page today and found that it had changed AGAIN. New requirements and new rules. Go figure. Surprise, surprise. The mighty morphing unfindable cache.

 

But The Ravens might be a jerk if he reports a cache that is UNFINDABLE? No. I do NOT accept that. The folks who planted the unfindable cache are saints and the guy who ponders an unfindable cache to be an oxymoron is the moron? I think someone has their wires crossed on this issue.

 

I state again, by definition a cache plant MUST be findable or it is not a cache. Just putting a box in the woods, noting the coordinates, and reporting a new puzzle does not a cache make. The puzzle has to be solvable by somebody somewhere someway. I’m not even saying I object to a steady stream of bugs being released as different stages are found. I’m not saying I’m not willing to consider just about the most outlandish cache concept you can field. I am in fact willing to embrace it. But the day you cozy up to my table with a cup of coffee in hand and say, “Stealth, I think I’m going to plant a puzzle cache that cannot be found, in spite of common sense and clear placement guidelines,” is the day that I beg you to come back to your sanity.

 

Look, don’t tell me what to do with my caches, don’t report my caches, don’t post bogus garbage on my caches, and if you don’t like my plants, don’t do them. But, the day I put out a cache that I know good and well is NOT findable in any shape manner or form, feel free to not only report my cache for retraction, but also feel free to invade my home in the middle of the night and give me a blanket party (à la Full Metal Jacket for a reference if you need one), because that is what I deserve.

 

With all this said, let me also clarify three additional points.

 

1.) Though I think it’s possible this listing might be appropriate to retract, I have also not reported it.

 

2.) The Ravens may or may not be a jerk, but he certainly isn’t one for having a problem with this listing, nor is he one if he decides to make a petition for retraction, considering the circumstances and his intimate knowledge of the situation.

 

3.) Though I wholeheartedly disagree with the publishing of this listing, I am in no way asserting anything about the character of the listing owners.

 

This posting was written in haste so please be forgiving of simple grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.

[+GeoGeeBee]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

 

You have two choices:

 

1) put the TB's on your watchlist so you can see when they are released,

 

or

 

2) put the cache on your ignore list.

 

Or you can contact a reviewer and try to get it archived, but why would you want to be a jerk?

Why be a jerk?

 

Really?

 

Anyone who knows me will tell you I’m not into cachers becoming keystone geo cops. I really don’t care that much about your cache. It’s your contribution. Thanks for adding to the pool.

 

I’m also all for challenging caches. I appreciate a challenge. I even have one out there myself that I know some have looked at and just turned away from. It’s been found plenty of times and is far from impossible. It’s just not everyone’s cup of tea. One type of cache that is not my cup of tea are scuba caches. I don’t dislike them necessarily. I just don’t do them. I should say I really can’t do them. Too challenging for my life skill level. I have a friend that loves them. She is certified scuba. I am only certified treadwater. I don’t complain that such caches are beyond me, though. I appreciate challenging caches and even appreciate caches that I will never have the ability to find.

 

I’m also all for your right to plant and publish a type of cache that I personally hate to do. I could tell you about specific types of cache hides that I loathe, but I do not begrudge you if you happen to plant one or ten of them. The fact is, very few actually know the types of caches I don’t like. Maybe four people and only two of them are cachers. I generally just don’t talk about it, because I respect all caches regardless of the personal enjoyment that I may or may not receive from them. I respect your right to enjoy those caches that I do not enjoy. I even respect LPCs and your right to plant them and find them.

 

So I’m not into telling other cachers how to do their planting, I like a challenging cache, and I don’t even tend to gripe about my personal cache peeves. But a cache that literally CANNOT be found? Seriously? You really think that a cache that has been planted that absolutely CANNOT be found IS and SHOULD BE viable?

 

I submit that by definition a published cache must be able to be found or it is not a cache. A cache that cannot be found is something else. It is litter.

 

I don’t have many “lines” that cannot be crossed. Publishing an unfindable cache in geocaching is a line that simply cannot be crossed. Do NOT publish a cache that CANNOT be found. Especially one that is going to take hundreds of dollars and days of work and energy to NOT find.

 

So multiple geocachers in an effort to find this unfindable cache have each spent into the three figures, EACH, in the pursuit of the cache before figuring out it was bogus. Gas and canoe rentals are not cheap these days. Each of these cachers were willing to make the fiscal investment… but of course, based on the reasonable assumption that a published cache, offered enough skill and energy, might actually be found.

 

I don’t even want to get into the whole time away from family issue. Many of us make those sacrifices. But of course, again, based on the reasonable assumption that a published cache, offered enough skill and energy might actually be found.

 

Beyond all the time, energy, money, and time away from family that has been wasted on an unfindable cache, the “rules” on this cache keep getting added and changed at the whim of the cache owner. So from week-to-week and month-to-month nobody knows what they are really even allowed to do to make an effort to find the cache. Updates are made to the rules of the cache on the page without note postings to notify cachers. So hopefully you reread the rules with regularity or you might violate one without being aware of it and have to be quarantined for some time.

 

In fact, I just brought up the cache page today and found that it had changed AGAIN. New requirements and new rules. Go figure. Surprise, surprise. The mighty morphing unfindable cache.

 

But The Ravens might be a jerk if he reports a cache that is UNFINDABLE? No. I do NOT accept that. The folks who planted the unfindable cache are saints and the guy who ponders an unfindable cache to be an oxymoron is the moron? I think someone has their wires crossed on this issue.

 

I state again, by definition a cache plant MUST be findable or it is not a cache. Just putting a box in the woods, noting the coordinates, and reporting a new puzzle does not a cache make. The puzzle has to be solvable by somebody somewhere someway. I’m not even saying I object to a steady stream of bugs being released as different stages are found. I’m not saying I’m not willing to consider just about the most outlandish cache concept you can field. I am in fact willing to embrace it. But the day you cozy up to my table with a cup of coffee in hand and say, “Stealth, I think I’m going to plant a puzzle cache that cannot be found, in spite of common sense and clear placement guidelines,” is the day that I beg you to come back to your sanity.

 

Look, don’t tell me what to do with my caches, don’t report my caches, don’t post bogus garbage on my caches, and if you don’t like my plants, don’t do them. But, the day I put out a cache that I know good and well is NOT findable in any shape manner or form, feel free to not only report my cache for retraction, but also feel free to invade my home in the middle of the night and give me a blanket party (à la Full Metal Jacket for a reference if you need one), because that is what I deserve.

 

With all this said, let me also clarify three additional points.

 

1.) Though I think it’s possible this listing might be appropriate to retract, I have also not reported it.

 

2.) The Ravens may or may not be a jerk, but he certainly isn’t one for having a problem with this listing, nor is he one if he decides to make a petition for retraction, considering the circumstances and his intimate knowledge of the situation.

 

3.) Though I wholeheartedly disagree with the publishing of this listing, I am in no way asserting anything about the character of the listing owners.

 

This posting was written in haste so please be forgiving of simple grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.

 

Please see my sig line. You're one stroke of the caps-lock key away...

[+StealthRT]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

 

You have two choices:

 

1) put the TB's on your watchlist so you can see when they are released,

 

or

 

2) put the cache on your ignore list.

 

Or you can contact a reviewer and try to get it archived, but why would you want to be a jerk?

Why be a jerk?

 

Really?

 

Anyone who knows me will tell you I’m not into cachers becoming keystone geo cops. I really don’t care that much about your cache. It’s your contribution. Thanks for adding to the pool.

 

I’m also all for challenging caches. I appreciate a challenge. I even have one out there myself that I know some have looked at and just turned away from. It’s been found plenty of times and is far from impossible. It’s just not everyone’s cup of tea. One type of cache that is not my cup of tea are scuba caches. I don’t dislike them necessarily. I just don’t do them. I should say I really can’t do them. Too challenging for my life skill level. I have a friend that loves them. She is certified scuba. I am only certified treadwater. I don’t complain that such caches are beyond me, though. I appreciate challenging caches and even appreciate caches that I will never have the ability to find.

 

I’m also all for your right to plant and publish a type of cache that I personally hate to do. I could tell you about specific types of cache hides that I loathe, but I do not begrudge you if you happen to plant one or ten of them. The fact is, very few actually know the types of caches I don’t like. Maybe four people and only two of them are cachers. I generally just don’t talk about it, because I respect all caches regardless of the personal enjoyment that I may or may not receive from them. I respect your right to enjoy those caches that I do not enjoy. I even respect LPCs and your right to plant them and find them.

 

So I’m not into telling other cachers how to do their planting, I like a challenging cache, and I don’t even tend to gripe about my personal cache peeves. But a cache that literally CANNOT be found? Seriously? You really think that a cache that has been planted that absolutely CANNOT be found IS and SHOULD BE viable?

 

I submit that by definition a published cache must be able to be found or it is not a cache. A cache that cannot be found is something else. It is litter.

 

I don’t have many “lines” that cannot be crossed. Publishing an unfindable cache in geocaching is a line that simply cannot be crossed. Do NOT publish a cache that CANNOT be found. Especially one that is going to take hundreds of dollars and days of work and energy to NOT find.

 

So multiple geocachers in an effort to find this unfindable cache have each spent into the three figures, EACH, in the pursuit of the cache before figuring out it was bogus. Gas and canoe rentals are not cheap these days. Each of these cachers were willing to make the fiscal investment… but of course, based on the reasonable assumption that a published cache, offered enough skill and energy, might actually be found.

 

I don’t even want to get into the whole time away from family issue. Many of us make those sacrifices. But of course, again, based on the reasonable assumption that a published cache, offered enough skill and energy might actually be found.

 

Beyond all the time, energy, money, and time away from family that has been wasted on an unfindable cache, the “rules” on this cache keep getting added and changed at the whim of the cache owner. So from week-to-week and month-to-month nobody knows what they are really even allowed to do to make an effort to find the cache. Updates are made to the rules of the cache on the page without note postings to notify cachers. So hopefully you reread the rules with regularity or you might violate one without being aware of it and have to be quarantined for some time.

 

In fact, I just brought up the cache page today and found that it had changed AGAIN. New requirements and new rules. Go figure. Surprise, surprise. The mighty morphing unfindable cache.

 

But The Ravens might be a jerk if he reports a cache that is UNFINDABLE? No. I do NOT accept that. The folks who planted the unfindable cache are saints and the guy who ponders an unfindable cache to be an oxymoron is the moron? I think someone has their wires crossed on this issue.

 

I state again, by definition a cache plant MUST be findable or it is not a cache. Just putting a box in the woods, noting the coordinates, and reporting a new puzzle does not a cache make. The puzzle has to be solvable by somebody somewhere someway. I’m not even saying I object to a steady stream of bugs being released as different stages are found. I’m not saying I’m not willing to consider just about the most outlandish cache concept you can field. I am in fact willing to embrace it. But the day you cozy up to my table with a cup of coffee in hand and say, “Stealth, I think I’m going to plant a puzzle cache that cannot be found, in spite of common sense and clear placement guidelines,” is the day that I beg you to come back to your sanity.

 

Look, don’t tell me what to do with my caches, don’t report my caches, don’t post bogus garbage on my caches, and if you don’t like my plants, don’t do them. But, the day I put out a cache that I know good and well is NOT findable in any shape manner or form, feel free to not only report my cache for retraction, but also feel free to invade my home in the middle of the night and give me a blanket party (à la Full Metal Jacket for a reference if you need one), because that is what I deserve.

 

With all this said, let me also clarify three additional points.

 

1.) Though I think it’s possible this listing might be appropriate to retract, I have also not reported it.

 

2.) The Ravens may or may not be a jerk, but he certainly isn’t one for having a problem with this listing, nor is he one if he decides to make a petition for retraction, considering the circumstances and his intimate knowledge of the situation.

 

3.) Though I wholeheartedly disagree with the publishing of this listing, I am in no way asserting anything about the character of the listing owners.

 

This posting was written in haste so please be forgiving of simple grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.

 

Please see my sig line. You're one stroke of the caps-lock key away...

GeoGeeBee, hilarious. I really did laugh out loud. I had a decent smile on my face this morning but now it is world class. Thank you.

 

But, your sig line is sort of the point.

 

Geocaching is supposed to be fun. Assuming you bothered to read the 1,001 word posting, I’m sure you would agree that there is a reason the guidelines require a cache to be findable. Such a listing sucks the fun out of the game for even the most casual, fun, and good spirited of us.

 

And, by the way, people forget that the forums are not geocaching. They are the forums. Connected with geocaching, but not geocaching. I don’t really check out the forums for fun. I just use it to keep me in the loop on a variety of geocaching related topics. Agreed that geocaching is fun. Forums are more like required work for me so that my fun might be enhanced a bit.

 

Regardless of whether I’m in the forums or on the trail, even the possibility of a top notch guy like The Ravens being linked to an adjective like jerk over his sincere and well thought out musings regarding this cache… well, it’s going to get my ire up just a bit.

 

I assure you my post wasn’t frantic nor was it meant to be rantish (though it may in the end have been). It was meant to bring up some decent points and maybe shed some light on the situation for anyone who is following the thread. If anyone was getting the idea that The Ravens was out of line, I suggest it is due to lack of knowledge on the situation. I thought I would offer some perspective and to do so thoroughly takes some words. About a thousand of them, apparently. And if I did somehow fall into ranting territory in defense of a geocacher who has more fun with the sport than most I know, then call the post, or me, what you will.

 

I’m sincerely surprised that after your hilarious comment you didn’t hit another paragraph and just give me a, “couple good points there, sir.” I’ll just assume that you did see where I was coming from and just left out that line. Or maybe you decided not to wade into such a long post considering with your sig line, I could see that being a policy of yours. Maybe the thought is if the post is over 500 words it must be a negative rant, and reading negative rants isn’t fun, so let’s not bother diving in. Either way, fair enough. I really wasn’t writing to get you to see my point of view. I was just stating what I thought should be stated regarding the issue. It’s posted for anyone who wants to bother to read it.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

[+GeoGeeBee]

I’m sincerely surprised that after your hilarious comment you didn’t hit another paragraph and just give me a, “couple good points there, sir.”

 

 

To be honest, I didn't read your entire rant so I'm not sure if there were a couple of good points in there or not.

 

The thread is about a particular cache, which has gone a long time without being found. Just because no one has found it yet, doesn't mean that it is not possible to find it.

 

As I understand it, there are a number of travel bugs with clues to the cache. Maybe it would be possible for someone who had the clue from the first travel bug to have a stroke of genius that would solve the puzzle. Each additional travel bug release provides an additional clue. If there was a cache like that around here, it would be on my watchlist as soon as I became aware of it!

 

In fact, there's a cache that sounds rather similar that IS on my watchlist: http://coord.info/GC223VA

 

My original post on the topic stands: You can either put it on your watchlist and wait for the additional clues. Or you can put it on your ignore list. Or, if you are convinced that it really is impossible to find it, you can post the NA log.

 

I still think only a jerk would post the NA log.

[+GeoGeeBee]

Geocaching is supposed to be fun. Assuming you bothered to read the 1,001 word posting, I’m sure you would agree that there is a reason the guidelines require a cache to be findable. Such a listing sucks the fun out of the game for even the most casual, fun, and good spirited of us.

 

 

I'm still not clear on how a cache listing can suck the fun out of the game for anyone. Maybe if I knew what cache you were ranting about I'd have a different opinion. For now I'll stick with my original theory: just because YOU can't find it, doesn't mean that it can't be found.

 

I can't find the cache on the space station, either. But it isn't sucking the fun out of the game for me.

[+uxorious]

I guess I didn't see that. So this cache is in violation of the guidelines as stated on the GC.com website. Now what to do??

 

You have two choices:

 

1) put the TB's on your watchlist so you can see when they are released,

 

or

 

2) put the cache on your ignore list.

 

Or you can contact a reviewer and try to get it archived, but why would you want to be a jerk?

 

If the cache in question is in fact a violation of the guidelines, then the jerk is the person who hid the cache, not the one who reported it.

 

Note that this assumes a lot. It assumes the reporting party knows the cache is not findable at this time, and that the cache owner has not put all the pieces in place to find it.

I would be hesitant to call either one a jerk, but I would never call someone a jerk for reporting a cache that is in violation of the guidelines. (Note that I have never reported any cache, and probably would just move on. But I would reserve the right to report without being called a jerk.)

[+DragonsWest]

So far I have resisted the temptation to place a puzzle/multi which requires gathering information in the field, particularly over the concern the information may be of a temporary nature - it could be changed without notice, defaced, placed off limits. I think these concerns should be addressed by anyone placing puzzles or multies, the nature of clue gathering locations.

 

Only one I know of is still active in my area, with one vital piece missing and unlikely to be replaced. We locals need to get moving on that one.