New Superadhesive?

[knowschad]

One subject that comes up here frequently is that of adhesives for cache construction.

 

 

I haven't tried it yet myself. I was stocking up on cache building materials today and saw this stuff. I thought that it sounded worth the $3 or so (noticed that it is not cyanoacrylate or any other glue that I've heard of before). Just did an internet search and found this review on a knife making forum: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...ight=epoxy+wars

 

 

Has anyone else tried it out yet?

[Clan Riffster]

Nice! Although it's too expensive for the type of adhesion I usually do, (covering an entire ammo can about 1/8th inch deep), it looks like it'll work well for smaller jobs.

[+Knight2000]

If it hasn't been done already it would be nice to have a range report. (That's what many call gun reports on gun forums.) Which adhesives have been tried and how they react to different surfaces. This sounds like a magazine article but it would need to be a collaborative effort.

 

Example: Gorilla glue and silicone do not work for me on plastics and magnets. LEXEL does a great job.

Nice! Although it's too expensive for the type of adhesion I usually do, (covering an entire ammo can about 1/8th inch deep), it looks like it'll work well for smaller jobs.

What do you use for that?

[knowschad]

If it hasn't been done already it would be nice to have a range report. (That's what many call gun reports on gun forums.) Which adhesives have been tried and how they react to different surfaces. This sounds like a magazine article but it would need to be a collaborative effort.

 

Example: Gorilla glue and silicone do not work for me on plastics and magnets. LEXEL does a great job.

Nice! Although it's too expensive for the type of adhesion I usually do, (covering an entire ammo can about 1/8th inch deep), it looks like it'll work well for smaller jobs.

What do you use for that?

 

 

I haven't followed up on that forum post, but it sounds as though the test with this new glue was an addition to a previous test of various adhesives.

 

 

This is said to remain flexible, so it should work well on substrates that expand and contract at different rates, I'd think.

 

 

My personal true test will be to see if it can glue chrome plated rare-earth magnets to plexiglas... a task that I have so far found impossible.

[+bittsen]

If it hasn't been done already it would be nice to have a range report. (That's what many call gun reports on gun forums.) Which adhesives have been tried and how they react to different surfaces. This sounds like a magazine article but it would need to be a collaborative effort.

 

Example: Gorilla glue and silicone do not work for me on plastics and magnets. LEXEL does a great job.

Nice! Although it's too expensive for the type of adhesion I usually do, (covering an entire ammo can about 1/8th inch deep), it looks like it'll work well for smaller jobs.

What do you use for that?

 

 

I haven't followed up on that forum post, but it sounds as though the test with this new glue was an addition to a previous test of various adhesives.

 

 

This is said to remain flexible, so it should work well on substrates that expand and contract at different rates, I'd think.

 

 

My personal true test will be to see if it can glue chrome plated rare-earth magnets to plexiglas... a task that I have so far found impossible.

Chrome or Nickel? Most Neodymium magnets are nickel plated.

And I have used generic cyanoacrylate glue to bond nickel coated NdFeB magnets to "plexiglass". If you flex the plastic, though, the magnets will separate.

[knowschad]

. LEXEL does a great job.

Nice! Although it's too expensive for the type of adhesion I usually do, (covering an entire ammo can about 1/8th inch deep), it looks like it'll work well for smaller jobs.

What do you use for that?

 

 

I'd never heard of LEXEL before, but I guess this is what you're referring to:

 

 

 

A better combination latex and silicone based adhesive is Lexel. Lexel also comes in squeeze tubes and caulking gun tubes but it costs about 3 times as much as Liquid Nails. However, it is stronger, more flexible and has better adhesive strength than Liquid Nails. Lexel comes in white and clear formulations. Lexel also works well in a caulking gun tube. If the tube tip is plugged with a large toothpick or a metal rod, the adhesive will not set up in the tip and the tip is easy to clear. Unlike other silicone adhesives, Lexel will take paint well after it is allowed to set for two days. Lexel adheres to just about anything.

 

[+ecanderson]

One subject that comes up here frequently is that of adhesives for cache construction.

 

 

I haven't tried it yet myself. I was stocking up on cache building materials today and saw this stuff. I thought that it sounded worth the $3 or so (noticed that it is not cyanoacrylate or any other glue that I've heard of before). Just did an internet search and found this review on a knife making forum: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...ight=epoxy+wars

 

 

Has anyone else tried it out yet?

 

Haven't tried it, but looking up the MSDS on it, it's yet another silicone (siloxane) adhesive material. Standard "cures in moist air, giving off acetic acid vapors" stuff.

 

Providing you can get it to stick to the surfaces in question, it should hold up pretty well. It's hold out moisture, remain pliable, and won't have problems pulling apart from the surfaces due to differences in coefficient of expansion with temperature changes. I don't see anything special in it that other RTV silicone materials don't offer.

[+ecanderson]

And I have used generic cyanoacrylate glue to bond nickel coated NdFeB magnets to "plexiglass". If you flex the plastic, though, the magnets will separate.

Temperature shifts will do the same thing. The plex and the magnets change size at substantially different rates with temperature. That's the problem with a lot of the very brittle materials like cyanoacrylic glues and most of the epoxy products. I've seen a lot of mag bullets lose their magnets that way over the course of a season. That's why, if I can get it to stick, I work with silicone materials that don't suffer from that problem. Trouble is, it doesn't stick to everything. Then again, you run up against container materials like polypropylene (soft plastic containers) where no glue seems to work. That's when it's time to use a tougher magnet and tape the bugger on or use it from the inside.

[knowschad]

One subject that comes up here frequently is that of adhesives for cache construction.

 

 

I haven't tried it yet myself. I was stocking up on cache building materials today and saw this stuff. I thought that it sounded worth the $3 or so (noticed that it is not cyanoacrylate or any other glue that I've heard of before). Just did an internet search and found this review on a knife making forum: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...ight=epoxy+wars

 

Has anyone else tried it out yet?

 

Haven't tried it, but looking up the MSDS on it, it's yet another silicone (siloxane) adhesive material. Standard "cures in moist air, giving off acetic acid vapors" stuff.

 

Providing you can get it to stick to the surfaces in question, it should hold up pretty well. It's hold out moisture, remain pliable, and won't have problems pulling apart from the surfaces due to differences in coefficient of expansion with temperature changes. I don't see anything special in it that other RTV silicone materials don't offer.

 

 

Interesting. So... from your analysis... nothing new, but probably pretty good. The package hype claims that it "combines the best adhesive properties into a single formulation, making a universal adhesive that takes the guesswork out of choosing the right adhesive". Well, I would never buy that 100%, but it is a pretty bold claim and would expect it to come fairly close to that.

 

 

So, "trimethoxyvinylsiland and amines" are probably just components, or even solvents, and not the glue itself, huh? I'd never heard of the first compound before (but I am NOT a chemist)

[knowschad]

Chrome or Nickel? Most Neodymium magnets are nickel plated.

And I have used generic cyanoacrylate glue to bond nickel coated NdFeB magnets to "plexiglass". If you flex the plastic, though, the magnets will separate.

 

 

Chrome or nickle? Not sure. I believe the websites I've seen claimed chrome (because neodymium corrodes like mad without a plating). The point is that it is a slick surface. I can roughen the plexi up a bit, but not the plating. After a few weeks, the magnets were sticking to the steel surface they were attracted to instead of the plexiglas surface that I wanted them bonded to.

[+bittsen]

Chrome or Nickel? Most Neodymium magnets are nickel plated.

And I have used generic cyanoacrylate glue to bond nickel coated NdFeB magnets to "plexiglass". If you flex the plastic, though, the magnets will separate.

 

 

Chrome or nickle? Not sure. I believe the websites I've seen claimed chrome (because neodymium corrodes like mad without a plating). The point is that it is a slick surface. I can roughen the plexi up a bit, but not the plating. After a few weeks, the magnets were sticking to the steel surface they were attracted to instead of the plexiglas surface that I wanted them bonded to.

 

It's Nickel. Nickel can shine up as good as chrome. Nickel bonds to Neodymuim as good as anything and even chrome bonds to nickel.

Nickel is a hard substance so it's difficult (but not impossible) to rough up for a better bond.

The problem is that, since plastic is a petroleum product, plastic repels anything that is not oil based. Most plastic "glues" are not a glue at all but a solvent. Most "glues" will peel right off plastic if attacked properly.

 

Plastic and metal just don't like eachother.

[knowschad]

Chrome or Nickel? Most Neodymium magnets are nickel plated.

And I have used generic cyanoacrylate glue to bond nickel coated NdFeB magnets to "plexiglass". If you flex the plastic, though, the magnets will separate.

 

 

Chrome or nickle? Not sure. I believe the websites I've seen claimed chrome (because neodymium corrodes like mad without a plating). The point is that it is a slick surface. I can roughen the plexi up a bit, but not the plating. After a few weeks, the magnets were sticking to the steel surface they were attracted to instead of the plexiglas surface that I wanted them bonded to.

 

It's Nickel. Nickel can shine up as good as chrome. Nickel bonds to Neodymuim as good as anything and even chrome bonds to nickel.

Nickel is a hard substance so it's difficult (but not impossible) to rough up for a better bond.

The problem is that, since plastic is a petroleum product, plastic repels anything that is not oil based. Most plastic "glues" are not a glue at all but a solvent. Most "glues" will peel right off plastic if attacked properly.

 

Plastic and metal just don't like eachother.

 

 

Regarding the plating... I see them plated with nickle, chrome, and even gold when I do a search. Whatever... that isn't the point.

 

 

In my case, I used JB-Weld, and it stuck like glue to the plexi, but let go of the magnets. The JB-Weld is still stuck to the plexiglas.

[+bittsen]

Regarding the plating... I see them plated with nickle, chrome, and even gold when I do a search. Whatever... that isn't the point.

 

In my case, I used JB-Weld, and it stuck like glue to the plexi, but let go of the magnets. The JB-Weld is still stuck to the plexiglas.

 

I've always hated JB Weld. It's the redneck solution when duct tape won't work. Its usually useless for whatever application it is being used for. But thats just my non-redneck opinion. ~LOL~

 

Just so you know, the chrome plating would go over nickel if it was chrome plated. Also, the gold plated magnets are also plated over nickel.

 

I did a quick ebay search and was surprised that there was actually ONE listing of chrome plated neo magnets. Shocked because it's my favorite magnet supplier and the picture is the same one they use for the same size nickel coated magnet (which, coincidentally I purchased from them and use on one of my caches)

[+Knight2000]

My personal true test will be to see if it can glue chrome plated rare-earth magnets to plexiglas... a task that I have so far found impossible.

Well, you made me get out of bed and wander through a dark house at night in search of LEXEL, a neo. magnet and some plexi.

 

Give it 2 days to cure. I have high hopes. I really do think it will work.

[knowschad]

Regarding the plating... I see them plated with nickle, chrome, and even gold when I do a search. Whatever... that isn't the point.

 

In my case, I used JB-Weld, and it stuck like glue to the plexi, but let go of the magnets. The JB-Weld is still stuck to the plexiglas.

 

I've always hated JB Weld. It's the redneck solution when duct tape won't work. Its usually useless for whatever application it is being used for. But thats just my non-redneck opinion. ~LOL~

 

Just so you know, the chrome plating would go over nickel if it was chrome plated. Also, the gold plated magnets are also plated over nickel.

 

I did a quick ebay search and was surprised that there was actually ONE listing of chrome plated neo magnets. Shocked because it's my favorite magnet supplier and the picture is the same one they use for the same size nickel coated magnet (which, coincidentally I purchased from them and use on one of my caches)

 

 

Not that this thread is about magnet platings, but I'm surprised that you only found one hit on chrome plated rare-earth magnets. This is from one of a number of sites that I found:

 

 

 

Note: The magnet spheres are PLATED - we have not found a way to make solid gold, silver or nickel into a magnet. The plating is just a few microns thick and the force of the magnets is strong enough to eventually break any plating. Chrome plating is the toughest and lasts the longest but as you get larger than 7mm dia spheres the chrome is not as strong as the magnets.

 

 

 

and another:

 

 

your choice of nickel, gold, or steel blue chrome plated Neodymium Magnets.

 

 

 

But anyway...

 

 

I'm surprised you say that about J-B Weld. I think you are likely to see many dissenting opinions here. But with any adhesive... it is all about finding the correct adhesive for the substrates involved, and I think we'd both agree that there is no magic bullet here.

 

 

And actually, while I am enjoying this topic, the thread really is about the Loctite Extreme glue. Maybe we need a new "how to glue a magnet to plexiglas" thread.

[+Knight2000]

knowschad...

 

 

too

 

 

 

many

 

 

spaces.

 

 

[+bittsen]

And actually, while I am enjoying this topic, the thread really is about the Loctite Extreme glue. Maybe we need a new "how to glue a magnet to plexiglas" thread.

 

Well, I'm anxiously awaiting your test results.

 

(P.S. I searched for chrome neodymium. Not rare earth.)

[knowschad]

knowschad...

 

 

too

 

 

 

many

 

 

spaces.

 

 

 

Yeah, I know. I switched to the Rich Text Editor recently. It double-spaces, and I keep forgetting that.

[knowschad]

 

(P.S. I searched for chrome neodymium. Not rare earth.)

 

Ditto. Odd that you got different results.

[Clan Riffster]

It's too expensive for the type of adhesion I usually do, (covering an entire ammo can about 1/8th inch deep)

What do you use for that?

I like Liquid Nails black roof repair. It comes in a caulk like tube. I glue physical camo, such as moss, bark and camo burlap onto the caches I camo, and this stuff works wonders. The down side is the mess, the odor and the 3 day curing time. I doubt it would work on neodymium magnets, but I can't say for sure.

[+Knight2000]

I like Liquid Nails black roof repair. It comes in a caulk like tube. I glue physical camo, such as moss, bark and camo burlap onto the caches I camo, and this stuff works wonders. The down side is the mess, the odor and the 3 day curing time. I doubt it would work on neodymium magnets, but I can't say for sure.

Thanks. I have an ammo can with fake moss on it. It fits nicely into the stonework of cellar that is remaining from an old historic home. Plain sight but it tricks some people. I used what I had in haste and it worked but because it was so expensive I skimped. I need to do maintenance to make it better probably so thanks for sharing.

[+Knight2000]

My personal true test will be to see if it can glue chrome plated rare-earth magnets to plexiglas... a task that I have so far found impossible.

How much will it have to withstand? If you put a big magnet and attach it on the outside of the container the bond will break much faster as the force is incredible. Especially with a huge magnet.

 

I glued a 7/8" magnet to plexi. I'd like to let it cure more, but what's the test? Stick it in the freezer? It is a rubbery type bond.

[+ecanderson]

 

I glued a 7/8" magnet to plexi. I'd like to let it cure more, but what's the test? Stick it in the freezer? It is a rubbery type bond.

You're looking for differential that occurs during both heating and cooling, and the number of cycles you'd want to run to see if it would actually hold up over a season would be a pain. So what you'd want to do is accelerate the test a bit.

 

If you have a proper deep freeze, better to use that. If you have a regular freezer, it'll have to do. Toss your creation in there for at least a couple of hours.

 

Now, pull it out and drop it into the hottest tap water your house produces for two or three minutes.

 

Try to give the assembly a wiggle.

 

Do that cycle about 10 times. If you can't kill it with that, it's probably going to do pretty well with temperature cycling and differential coefficients of expansion of the materials. Whether the adhesive actually sticks to your base materials is another story, but this test should point out any problems with that as well.

[+Knight2000]

I think that test will not be a problem. I don't think the sticking is the factor. It is the forces pulling them away from each other that I am worried about.

[+Knight2000]

I did try the magnet to a 2 liter bottle cap. I drilled holes and then the lexel seeped through the holes. I only let it cure one day. It worked great until I pulled it off the metal 4th time. That magnet is so strong and the metal it was on was so thick it was just too much force. Of course not letting it cure didn't help things either.

[+ecanderson]

I think that test will not be a problem. I don't think the sticking is the factor. It is the forces pulling them away from each other that I am worried about.

That's easy to resolve. Find a decent sized hunk of steel (your refrigerator?) and apply and remove a few dozen times using only the acrylic to make the pull.

 

Like I say, the test recommended is only for the thermal issues that plague some adhesive/material combinations, and what you are describing isn't the sort of brittle material (e.g., epoxy or any of the cyanoacrylic glues) that usually fails that way.

 

I'm not sure how well the stuff will stick to your magnet/plastic materials. Truth to tell, my own experience with silicone based adhesives is mixed, but it's usually obvious very quickly if the adhesive is going to fail massively. I've got some little plastic containers that I've tried to rough up and use RTV on with zero success. The RTV peels right off. I'm guessing that they're some sort of polypropylene. Difficult stuff to work with.

 

What I failed to ask was how thick your acrylic is, and how strong your magnets are. Any chance of adhering them to the inside instead of the outside of the acrylic? That makes a big difference.

Edited September 15, 2009 by ecanderson

[+ecanderson]

I did try the magnet to a 2 liter bottle cap. I drilled holes and then the lexel seeped through the holes. I only let it cure one day. It worked great until I pulled it off the metal 4th time. That magnet is so strong and the metal it was on was so thick it was just too much force. Of course not letting it cure didn't help things either.

If the magnet is THAT strong, it may well still have reasonable holding power through a thin surface of another material. The strength of the hold of your magnet decreases as a square of the added distance from the surface of the steel, so the thickness of the object you would be using between them adds up quickly. Still, I've seen a lot of caches where powerful little rare earth magnets are used that do just fine.

 

And yeah, you need to let your adhesive cure for at least as long as the manufacturer recommends for a "full" bond.

 

Forgot to mention -- it's best with any of these things, assuming you've got the space, to make a pretty fair sized fillet of goo around the magnet to give the adhesive more to work with. Just putting some under the magnet probably isn't going to get it.

Edited September 15, 2009 by ecanderson

[CoyoteRed]

In my case, I used JB-Weld, and it stuck like glue to the plexi, but let go of the magnets. The JB-Weld is still stuck to the plexiglas.

This is what you want. The cup is attached to the acrylic. I always prefer mechanical bonds, personally, but if JBW works for you on acrylic, then go for it. Attach the cup. Dab a generous amount of JB weld into the cup. Place the magnet. The JBW should squeeze out of cup and cover the magnet. Cover with wax paper. Place on a ferrous surface. What you will end up with a concentrated magnet completely covered with JBW, but the business end is very, very thin.

 

The cups concentrate the magnetic field to one side of the combination providing a much better hold. I use these in various applications. If you can get the cup to stick to what ever, then this will work. The magnet will not come out of the cup and it is protected from chipping if it is allowed to slam back onto the mounting surface.

 

It is my experience the 1" set is a bit aggressive.

 

I've also used JBW to repair various things including a plastic saddle bag on my bike. I drilled holes so the JBW would bond to inself on both sides and introduced wire for extra shear strength. It's been a couple of years and still taking abuse.

 

Oh, and thin metals won't let the magnets work as well as thick metals. Think refrigerator door versus steal beam.

[knowschad]

Less powerful magnets were probably my best option. In fact, old-fashioned ceramics would probably have worked. Knight... we've discussed this cache in email before. My version of an LPC. So, I didn't want the plexi between the magnets and what its attached to because it would have been too obvious.

 

 

The cache has been archived, and I won't be putting it back out unless I found just the perfect spot for it. Even though it was an interesteing twist on the cliche, I still never felt very good about it.

[+GRANPA ALEX]

What I have had a great succes in using are the tubes of LIQUID NAILER one finds in the building supply stores, works on most all surfaces I have need it to secure and is economical (mess, though).

 

Mechanical fastening is best, of course, but sometimes, you need more or you need to seal the fastening point. I have used it to secure camo material on hard plastic, soft (tupperware) plastic, metal, wood and have found that it seals, as well.

 

I have used it to seal drywall fasteners (molly bolts) in the base of pill bottles, film cans and much larger ammo can sizes - it holds fast and is secure.

[knowschad]

What I have had a great succes in using are the tubes of LIQUID NAILER one finds in the building supply stores, works on most all surfaces I have need it to secure and is economical (mess, though).

 

Mechanical fastening is best, of course, but sometimes, you need more or you need to seal the fastening point. I have used it to secure camo material on hard plastic, soft (tupperware) plastic, metal, wood and have found that it seals, as well.

 

I have used it to seal drywall fasteners (molly bolts) in the base of pill bottles, film cans and much larger ammo can sizes - it holds fast and is secure.

 

 

I totally agree with you about the mechanical bond. Its just that in the case being discussed here, there was really no way to accomplish that. The magnets were chrome (or nickle) plated, with no holes through them or anything. Really just one slick surface to another.

[+Knight2000]

Less powerful magnets were probably my best option. In fact, old-fashioned ceramics would probably have worked. Knight... we've discussed this cache in email before. My version of an LPC. So, I didn't want the plexi between the magnets and what its attached to because it would have been too obvious.

 

 

The cache has been archived, and I won't be putting it back out unless I found just the perfect spot for it. Even though it was an interesteing twist on the cliche, I still never felt very good about it.

I have thought about this more. My first prototype failed to perform as designed so I archived it. The solution, I beleive, is to use sheet aluminum glued to the sheet magnet. I think it will be harder to find?

 

So you need to magnet to work through the pelxi. I think the LEXEL will work for this because the adhesive bond will never be stressed apart. I'm still wondering about the stresses pulling the pieces apart, especially with strong magnets.

 

My mag test is probably cured now. Now I need to get that 18" a 4' piece of plexi in the freezer.

[+ecanderson]

 

I have thought about this more. My first prototype failed to perform as designed so I archived it. The solution, I beleive, is to use sheet aluminum glued to the sheet magnet. I think it will be harder to find?

 

Only if you paint it exactly the same color as the sign post

 

Have seen sheet magnet on the back of other flat material before here in Colorado. The COs that know their paint can make these truly miserable to find! I've been truly amazed at some of the color matches. Logs were just long strips of WiiR paper the length of the assembly.

 

Sheet magnet is a lot easier to work with than other stuff if it's strong enough to do what you need to do. I've had really good luck with a thin layer of RTV (silicone seal) holding them to other surfaces. Not sure I'd ever trust the adhesive that comes ON some of them. I test drove some of that self-adhesive strip magnet material last winter, and it gave way from the galvanized duplex outlet box I had stuck on my metal cabinet out in the garage. Had literally covered the back of the outlet box with the strips, and hadn't even loaded any hardware into the box yet for camo.

 

So how did the freezer test go?

[+Knight2000]

 

I have thought about this more. My first prototype failed to perform as designed so I archived it. The solution, I beleive, is to use sheet aluminum glued to the sheet magnet. I think it will be harder to find?

 

Only if you paint it exactly the same color as the sign post

 

Have seen sheet magnet on the back of other flat material before here in Colorado. The COs that know their paint can make these truly miserable to find! I've been truly amazed at some of the color matches. Logs were just long strips of WiiR paper the length of the assembly.

 

Sheet magnet is a lot easier to work with than other stuff if it's strong enough to do what you need to do. I've had really good luck with a thin layer of RTV (silicone seal) holding them to other surfaces. Not sure I'd ever trust the adhesive that comes ON some of them. I test drove some of that self-adhesive strip magnet material last winter, and it gave way from the galvanized duplex outlet box I had stuck on my metal cabinet out in the garage. Had literally covered the back of the outlet box with the strips, and hadn't even loaded any hardware into the box yet for camo.

 

So how did the freezer test go?

You do not understand what type of hide I am talking about. It is not visible and it is a LPC.

 

I can't get it in my freezer. The bond is good but very pliable. (I think this is a good thing.) I will tug at it a bit later.

[+ecanderson]

The bond is good but very pliable.

That's usually the best kind. It more often assures that the differential in the expansion of the two materials out there in the real world of heat/cool cycles won't cause the the adhesive to crack and release.