HOW does your unit support paperless caching?

[+jeanne123]

Looks like the forum ate my original post. Here it is again:

 

I am currently using dinosaur receiver, so printouts are a fact of life for me at this time. Now I am ready to upgrade, so I am doing my homework. I have it narrowed down to the usual suspects - DeLorme PN-40, some flavor of Oregon, or maybe the new Dakota. I also have not ruled out the workhorse favorite, the 60csx, though I would prefer better support for going paperless.

 

Which brings me to my question. Although there is a lot of discussion about what is good for paperless caching, it is clear that this term means different things to different people. My questions will surely show my ignorance of paperless caching - they are based on how I think it might work, and not any knowlege of how it actually does work. I am hoping your responses will give me a better understanding of how it works with your unit. Here are the three capabilities I think I would need to go paperless:

1. Trip planning: I realize you can load lots of caches with pocket queries, and just turn on the receiver and see what's nearby. I'm sure I will want to do that from time to time, but I usually like to plan my outings a little better than that. I am assuming trip planning would happen on the PC, and then the proposed routes would be sent to the GPS. Can you upload multiple routes or alternative paths? How hard is it to switch from one to another? Or to alter the path on the fly when you are in the field without the computer? What does the route look like when your search will involve bushwhacking?
    
   
2. Field notes: I have no expectation that I would be able to create a complete log, suitable to post directly. I think I would need a real keyboard for that. But I would want the ability to jot down some notes to refresh my memory. With minimal available buttons, it seems that this would be rather cumbersome. Do the touch screen models have an actual keyboard or other helpers that make it easier then arrowing back and forth from letter to letter? Having the ability to do field notes may not be important, if it is so painful that it is not worth it.
    
   
3. Logging results: I use the annotated printouts to keep track of what I have logged online, and what I have not. Is there an easy way to distinguish which ones I have logged, so if I get interrupted in the middle of logging, I will know where to start again? Just the presence of field notes might not be enough, as it may be part of a multi-stage or puzzle. Is there a way to distinguish those as well?
   

Besides these key points, are there other things about paperless caching that I should know, or that will help me with my decision? There is no need here to elaborate about satellite lock, compass calibration, customer support, screen brightness, chipsets, upgrades, maps (or lack thereof), driving navigation, or battery life. I will weigh those things in my decision as well, but there is a lot of available information on those subjects. I need more information about the actual mechanics of paperless caching, so that I can evaluate that capability.

 

Also note that for me, price is not as important as "bang for the buck". I don't mind paying top dollar for something if the top-end features are important to me, but I hate to pay for bells and whistles that I don't need and will never use.

 

TIA for all helpful suggestions and comments.

Edited July 29, 2009 by jeanne123

[+Mike & Kate]

I noticed that my GPS (Garmin Nuvi 550) isn't on your list, and while it's not the best unit out there if used solely for geocaching, it's great if you want a unit that you can use for both driving and geocaching.

 

As it relates to geocaching, it's a touch-screen unit designed specifically for use in geocaching. You load in a GPX file, and then you go into the "Where To" screen, select geocaches, and pick one (the info screen shows the most pertinent information (type, difficulty, etc.) Once you've locked on, under Driving mode it will take you to the closest road to the cache. Then, you can switch to Walking mode for a direct-to-GZ mode. ***The only useful option the Nuvi doesn't have is a magnetic-based compass, so sometimes it's a little more difficult to know which way to head, but overall it's not that hard.***

 

Now, while you're on the hunt, you can click a button on the screen which pulls up a list of buttons. "View Description" which has the cache description, "View Hints" which is obvious, "View Logs" which shows the last 5 logs from cachers, and "Log Attempt" which gives you options of Unattempted, Did Not Find, Needs Repair, and Found. After you choose an option, the touch-screen pops up a keyboard to add text as you feel necessary.

 

When you get home, you can open a text file on the GPS which shows the waypoint for every cache you logged, the status, and the text you entered. Then it's a simple matter to enter these into the website. ***You can't do a direct transfer of logs though...you just have to use the text file to recall your visits and recreate the actual website logs.*** Let me know if you'd like any more information on this GPS.

[+StarBrand]

I'll add the new Lowrance Endura series to the list. Just got mine - looks great - I'll have to put it threough its paces.....

[+Maingray]

 

[*]Trip planning: I realize you can load lots of caches with pocket queries, and just turn on the receiver and see what's nearby. I'm sure I will want to do that from time to time, but I usually like to plan my outings a little better than that. I am assuming trip planning would happen on the PC, and then the proposed routes would be sent to the GPS. Can you upload multiple routes or alternative paths? How hard is it to switch from one to another? Or to alter the path on the fly when you are in the field without the computer? What does the route look like when your search will involve bushwhacking?

 

[*]Field notes: I have no expectation that I would be able to create a complete log, suitable to post directly. I think I would need a real keyboard for that. But I would want the ability to jot down some notes to refresh my memory. With minimal available buttons, it seems that this would be rather cumbersome. Do the touch screen models have an actual keyboard or other helpers that make it easier then arrowing back and forth from letter to letter? Having the ability to do field notes may not be important, if it is so painful that it is not worth it.

 

[*]Logging results: I use the annotated printouts to keep track of what I have logged online, and what I have not. Is there an easy way to distinguish which ones I have logged, so if I get interrupted in the middle of logging, I will know where to start again? Just the presence of field notes might not be enough, as it may be part of a multi-stage or puzzle. Is there a way to distinguish those as well?

Besides these key points, are there other things about paperless caching that I should know, or that will help me with my decision? There is no need here to elaborate about satellite lock, compass calibration, customer support, screen brightness, chipsets, upgrades, maps (or lack thereof), driving navigation, or battery life. I will weigh those things in my decision as well, but there is a lot of available information on those subjects. I need more information about the actual mechanics of paperless caching, so that I can evaluate that capability.

 

 

Good post! I'll be impartial with respect to model / map capabilities etc.

 

1. Yes, having lots of caches with full information does allow for greater spontaneity. You can check out a map and see the cache description quickly and easily on the unit.

 

I prefer to plan ahead rather than jump from cache to cache, so in terms of planning, the way I do is this...(which to be honest isn't really unique per se to paperless units)... say for a road trip to a cluster of caches.... use the create a route on gc.com, select caches (based on description / google maps, whatever), make a PQ for the route, dump into GSAK. For the destination area itself, make a PQ with a good radius (select as above), dump into GSAK. With a group of buddies, filter out everyone else's finds using GSAK, make a bookmark list on gc.com to share the final cache database (semi automated process from GSAK). I personally never make a strict route to follow, rather make a sensible target cache list, and let the GPS auto-route from each cache to the next. Juggling an active route on the GPS is fiddly at times, and I don't really see the need. Paperless really comes in play when hunting.. no returns to the car for the Palm, of juggling pieces of paper.

 

Having a paperless device allows you to maybe add more caches to the unit than you actually plan for and still have information on hand.

 

2. yes, you got field notes exactly right. Touchscreen do have a full keyboard, but I never spend time to make a full log. The real beauty of field notes can be this aide memoire aspect, but it's more the fact it builds a list of caches in the order you found them (or DNF..or "walk aways") and with time. GSAK or gc.com can take that list and help you log in order.

 

3. Little fuzzy about what you mean, but with field notes you do get a list on gc.com that no-one else sees, of caches you found/DNFed, +your memory aid and in order..you just work through that list. Once you have logged a cache "proper" into the site, it will vanish from the field note queue. If you stop logging halfway through, you can come back to that list and carry on. Great reason to use them.

[+jeanne123]

Mike&Kate, thanks for the suggestion, but I probably should have mentioned that the unit will be used primarily for geocaching, as I have adequate solutions for driving directions. But I do appreciate the thought.

 

Starbrand, I will be watching for more info on the Endura. If it looks promising, I will give it more thought.

 

Maingray, thanks for your explanation. It really helps. Uploading field notes into a queue that you can work from for logging sounds perfect. Even with a touch screen, I don't think I would have the patience to enter a complete log in the field. Sounds like I would basically do the same as I would with the paper - jot down a few notes or key words, and put them in a stack to log later. You did not mention which unit you use??

 

Does paperless work pretty much the same way on all units, or are there differences from one brand to another? If that is consistent across brands, then it sounds like the touch screens have the advantage in this category because of easier entry of notes on the unit. Any rebuttal from the DeLorme camp?

 

What about trip planning? any comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the various units for planning your outings? Or for making changes on the fly to a pre-planned route?

[+Pax42]

I own a Delorme and I love the paperless features. I've played a little with both the Garmin Colorado and Oregon but don't know enough to offer specific differences in paperless functions. Field notes work pretty much the same way Maingray described. For route planning, the Delorme comes with Topo 8.0 software which is very powerful. With that power though comes complexity. Some have been turned off by what they consider a steep learning curve. Personally I didn't find it that hard to learn but I guess it depends on your patience and comfort level learning a new program.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Pax42

[+embra]

As a DeLorme fan, I don't think there's any dispute that touchscreens excel at quick[er] data entry. The rocker switch entry that the PN devices use keep me very brief (I prefer to take a voice recorder with me for more extensive field notes/memory jogs).

 

Also, I'm not sure how the Garmins or Lowrance handle the routing aspect, but the DeLormes geocaching mode pretty much require you to set a route destination of the cache itself. You could create a route using a sequence of caches as via points, but then you couldn't log finds and record field notes. As discussed, I like to use the PC for planning and I usually print out a map of where I intend to go--perhaps with the route on the map (guess I'm not entirely paperless at that point). This makes it easy to select the next cache to which I want to route...first driving a street route, then switching to a direct route for the last leg. Find (or not), log, repeat.

 

I suspect that other makes do something similar. It just seems to me that one master route would direct you to the vicinity of a cache, but automatically switch to the next leg of the route as soon as the GPS thought you were close enough by its criteria. Throw in the fact that many caches are a ways from the nearest road, and things get messy unless each cache gets its own route.

[+twolpert]

Does paperless work pretty much the same way on all units, or are there differences from one brand to another? If that is consistent across brands, then it sounds like the touch screens have the advantage in this category because of easier entry of notes on the unit. Any rebuttal from the DeLorme camp?

Yes, paperless works pretty much the same on all units (I have a Colorado and a PN-40, and have seen an Oregon in action.) The main differences are in these areas:

 

1) Number of caches the unit will hold. Colorado limit is 2000, PN-40 1000, Oregons are mixed (minimum 2000, I think, but some up to 5000?). Somebody who knows will correct the Oregon numbers if I'm wrong. Whether or not this matters to you depends on how you cache.

 

2) Description length limit. Colorado is about 4000, PN-40 is 14,000, not sure about Oregons but it can't be any less than 4000. Even 4000 is adequate for all but the longest multi/puzzle caches (or those occasional caches where the owner is just plain verbose). That said, I have hit the 4000 character limit on the Colorado once or twice.

 

3) Ease of log entry. Touch screens have the advantage, although the DeLorme virtual keyboard isn't bad. Stay away from the Colorado. The wheel is really, really bad for text entry.

 

4) Possibility of putting pictures from the cache description on the unit. None of the units automatically include images when downloading the paperless information from geocaching.com. The Garmin units (Colrado and Oregon, not sure about Dakota) do have image viewers. So if it's a puzzle cache and you absolutely, positively have to have the picture, you can download it separately and view it in the field. Not so with the PN-40, which has no image viewer. In my limited experience, this is not a big deal -- but it depends on what kind of caches you like and, to some degree, on the habits of cache owners in your area.

 

Personally, I don't pre-plan any farther than getting a PQ for the area in which I want to cache. When I get there, I depend on the map on the unit to help me decide where I'm going next and how I'm getting there. For me, paperless really changed the way I go about it. I used to pre-plan a lot more when I had to be sure to print the descriptions for every cache I wanted to do. I found that all the pre-planning went by the wayside when I could just go out and start caching in the area

[+jeanne123]

As a DeLorme fan, I don't think there's any dispute that touchscreens excel at quick[er] data entry. The rocker switch entry that the PN devices use keep me very brief (I prefer to take a voice recorder with me for more extensive field notes/memory jogs).

 

Also, I'm not sure how the Garmins or Lowrance handle the routing aspect, but the DeLormes geocaching mode pretty much require you to set a route destination of the cache itself. You could create a route using a sequence of caches as via points, but then you couldn't log finds and record field notes. As discussed, I like to use the PC for planning and I usually print out a map of where I intend to go--perhaps with the route on the map (guess I'm not entirely paperless at that point). This makes it easy to select the next cache to which I want to route...first driving a street route, then switching to a direct route for the last leg. Find (or not), log, repeat.

 

I suspect that other makes do something similar. It just seems to me that one master route would direct you to the vicinity of a cache, but automatically switch to the next leg of the route as soon as the GPS thought you were close enough by its criteria. Throw in the fact that many caches are a ways from the nearest road, and things get messy unless each cache gets its own route.

 

Interesting. I wonder if I will change my approach after going paperless as well. Although what you describe is a lot like what I do now. I use google maps to create a map with several waypoints for an area. If it is going to be a long outing, or if there is some distance between areas I plan to hit, I might have two or three of these maps. I don't necessarily create a route for the individual points within a map, but I usually know where I want to park, and what order I want to approach them. The map goes on top of my stack of printouts. And of course I always have more printouts than I can do, "just in case" I have more time than expected. Never happens, but so far that hasn't stopped me from printing more than I need.

 

I don't really need a master route - just some way of knowing which cachesI plan to do, and in what approximate order. I suppose if I just print the map, I am still way ahead of the stacks of paper I use now. If you zoom out, do you see other caches in the area, or just the one you are currently aiming for? My dinosaur shows everything, so I'm guessing the others do also, but I would hate to drop down a few hundred bucks on a bad assumption.

[+embra]

Yeah, if you zoom out on any of these GPS devices you'll see any cache waypoints within the area, as you would expect.

 

Both Garmins and Delormes also allow for the import of cache waypoints as POIs for inclusion beyond the waypoint file limitations (Garmins do this part better), but you're very limited for the amount of information that can be included...you can't use a lot of the paperless advantages with POIs.

 

Another comment about bringing a map that included cache waypoints on it: this also gives you flexibility to easily change your plans in the field (subject to how much map you brought). Also, it's nice to have the greater overview this affords over trying to zoom a GPS display out to the same coverage area.