Still Waterleakage problem Colorado 400T.

[docjames]

In October, 2009 I posted " I live in Taiwan. I bought a Colorado 400T during June 2008. I used it for navigation during jetskiing (attached to the handle bar with it's handlebar mount) from the main island to nearby smaller island. During my first ride only 2 days after it was purchased, we ran into a Beaufort number 7-8 wind and one of a friend's jetski perished along with a father and his son. It was a headline news here. Luckily, I had the GPS and I must admit it saved my life. However, after I reached the island just 34 Km from the starting point, the GPS died on me. I later found out that night, water had gone into the battery compartment. I had it sent in for repair and Garmin was kind enough to replace a new one for me. After a very careful inspection, I found a flaw in its design. The O-ring (seal) that suppose to keep the water out would be squished upward whenever I tried sliding the case up. That's why so many of you are having trouble getting the cover completely slide up. If you take a very close look, after the O-ring was pushed up, there are detached parts of the O-ring (supposely glued to it's bottom) that separates and allow water to seep in. I believei it's a design flaw and the company should solve this problem. The only way I can make sure that won't happen again is to buy some camera O-ring grease and allow the case to slide more smoothly so the O-ring won't detach and get squished together. Unlike Garmin's previous water proof GPS, they were manufactured so that the back plate was placed over the seal and tightened by screws. In that way, there's no sliding force on a dry detachable O-ring seal. Lastly, after using the grease, it's hell trying to remove the greased sticky sliding case off for battery replacement. I'm going to wipe the grease off completely days before the warrantee rans out and take another trip on my jetski. I'm sure water will get in and I'll get this GPS replaced with a new one. Come to think of it, it really angers me that Garmin doesn't even make a sound addressing to this problem.

 

Dr. James M. Shih docjames1098@hotmail.com "

 

It's a new season for riding jetskis. I went to a nice GPS store where I purchased the Colorado and told them the defect still exist. I really would like for them to exchange the Oregon for me and gladly pay for the price difference. A Mr. Lu, technical director answer the phone and told me that the Colorado is waterproof to the IC board and is waterproof, period, even without the back cover. So I told him that I'll challenge him and put the unit without cover in a cup of water. He told me go ahead and said if it dies, he'll replace a new one for me. Well, it took 3 seconds to kill the unit. Now, I want to address the seal problem again. It's defective. Everytime the cover is slide up the unit, the seal would get drier from the grease they had put on and after a couple times, the seal would detached and water would get it. I told him I'll be riding off shore every weekend from now on. If he doesn't let me make an exchage for the Oregon, which had fixed the problem using a non-sliding cover, they will be replacing a unit just about every single week for me. Guess what Mr. Lu told me? He said if that's the only way to let his company know that this problem exist, I should go ahead and try. Well, I have to warn everybody, if anyone uses this unit expecting it's waterproof function. Don't buy it. I have less than 2 months of warrantee, and I expect they will be replacing at least 8 units before I ran out of warrantee and buy a different model. They have already replaced the unit 2 times for me due to this defect during my last days of riding last year. They'll be expecting to replace more. Oregon is a great leap of fix on this matter. It looks the same, but the cover is not sliding, it presses on to the seal and will not allow water into the unit.

This company's got many hard headed people that just won't acknowledge to a simple problem.

[+Indotguy]

You've convinced me!

[jkettu]

Always lubricate an o-ring which is subject to sliding movement. Won't hurt, and helps to achieve positive seal, if you lubricate stationary seals too.

 

Never use a mineral oil based lubricant on an o-ring, it will turn the ring into a sticky goo. Silicone oil is exellent. If you have nothing else available, saliva works pretty well too.

[+Tequila]

This is a well known problem with the Colorado.

 

Garmin issued a new back cover to improve the area around the SD card but basically stated the battery compartment is IPX5 instead of IPX7 as advertised.

 

After 3 defective units, Garmin replaced my CO with a new Oregon at no charge.

[+g-o-cashers]

I have yet to see a picture of the new back cover or a pointer to reduced waterproof standards on the Colorado -- care to share?

[+Tequila]

I have yet to see a picture of the new back cover or a pointer to reduced waterproof standards on the Colorado -- care to share?

 

I have seen a picture but can't remember where. Will keep looking for it. The only change is a much larger O-ring around SD card.

 

As for the waterproof standards, the following is a quote a local cacher received from Garmin and posted in another forum:

 

Water in the SD slot can damage the device, however, water in the battery compartment cannot enter the device unless there is some other underlying issue which we cannot assume there would be.

 

The unit is considered IPX7 and the battery compartment is considered IPX5 on the water proof scale. Neither this unit nor any of our other Outdoor devices are “waterproof” like a Timex watch or something of the like would be. Since the moisture in the battery compartment would not result in intrusion of water into the device I am not too concerned with it resulting in damage. Now, if the unit is exceeding its waterproof rating then we could expect for some damage to occur. As you can tell the engineers did not change the seal around the battery compartment given the information I just provided.

[+twolpert]

I have also seen the picture with the fatter O-ring -- but it's been a long time and I don't even remember which forum, let alone where to find the post. However, my recollection is that the o-ring is on the body of the unit (surrounding the SD card slot), not on the cover.

 

I don't do anything as challenging as jet skiing with mine, but I do carry a plastic bag in case of heavy rain.

 

With regard to the OP's comment about putting the unit in a cup of water without the back -- upside down with the SD slot dry? Or just dunk the whole unit? I can't imagine that dunking the whole unit proves much of anything since water would enter both the battery compartment and the SD slot.

 

With regard to jet skiing, I wonder if the force of the water exceeds the IPX7 standard? I'm not that kind of engineer, but I seem to recall that there's a substantial difference between a static test to a half meter (or whatever IPX7 says) and spraying the unit down with a fire hose.

[+Tequila]

I have also seen the picture with the fatter O-ring -- but it's been a long time and I don't even remember which forum, let alone where to find the post. However, my recollection is that the o-ring is on the body of the unit (surrounding the SD card slot), not on the cover.

 

I don't do anything as challenging as jet skiing with mine, but I do carry a plastic bag in case of heavy rain.

 

With regard to the OP's comment about putting the unit in a cup of water without the back -- upside down with the SD slot dry? Or just dunk the whole unit? I can't imagine that dunking the whole unit proves much of anything since water would enter both the battery compartment and the SD slot.

 

With regard to jet skiing, I wonder if the force of the water exceeds the IPX7 standard? I'm not that kind of engineer, but I seem to recall that there's a substantial difference between a static test to a half meter (or whatever IPX7 says) and spraying the unit down with a fire hose.

 

Your "force of the water" comment is very appropriate. My first unit leaked in a heavy rain storm and Garmin's response was that rain was more difficult than immersion. I found that hard to believe but who knows. Garmin quickly replaced my CO with an OR and I never looked back.

 

In my opinion, a major issue is the fact the back cover slides on as opposed to all other units where it sits on top and tightened with a screw.

 

One thing Garmin pointed out was to check the fit of the back cover where it meets the top of the unit. I have seen some CO's where you could insert a dime in the gap. That is a common entry point for water.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Tequila

[+g-o-cashers]

I have yet to see a picture of the new back cover or a pointer to reduced waterproof standards on the Colorado -- care to share?

 

I have seen a picture but can't remember where. Will keep looking for it. The only change is a much larger O-ring around SD card.

 

 

That picture is on the wiki: http://garmincolorado.wikispaces.com/Issues+List but it doesn't have anything to do with the cover -- just a bigger O-ring. My new one has that. I thought the issue was leakage into the battery compartment because of damage to that O-ring?

[+Tequila]

I have yet to see a picture of the new back cover or a pointer to reduced waterproof standards on the Colorado -- care to share?

 

I have seen a picture but can't remember where. Will keep looking for it. The only change is a much larger O-ring around SD card.

 

 

That picture is on the wiki: http://garmincolorado.wikispaces.com/Issues+List but it doesn't have anything to do with the cover -- just a bigger O-ring. My new one has that. I thought the issue was leakage into the battery compartment because of damage to that O-ring?

 

Initially, there were problems with water in both the battery compartment and the SD card slot. Garmin created the new O-ring to address the SD card slot. They did nothing to address the battery compartment.

[+julianh]

The unit is considered IPX7 and the battery compartment is considered IPX5 on the water proof scale. Neither this unit nor any of our other Outdoor devices are “waterproof” like a Timex watch or something of the like would be.

Hmmmmm .......

 

I remember this issue (and this original claim) from when it was first posted last year.

 

Strange that the Garmin web site and the owner's manual STILL talk only about being waterproof to IPX7 - no mention of any other standard such as IPX5.

 

Product website: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145...=11022#specsTab :

 

Waterproof: yes (IPX7)

 

Page 34 ("Appendix - Specifications") of Owners Manual: http://www.garmin.com/manuals/2217_OwnersManual.pdf :

 

Case: Rugged, metal-plated, waterproof to IPX7

 

For a bit of guidance on IP ratings, see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code :

 

IPX5: Water projected by a nozzle against enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.

IPX7: Ingress of water in harmful quantity shall not be possible when the enclosure is immersed in water under defined conditions of pressure and time (up to 1 m of submersion).

Edited April 28, 2009 by julianh

[pratzert]

So.... it is the Colorado which has the problem... but the Oregon does not ?

[+Tequila]

So.... it is the Colorado which has the problem... but the Oregon does not ?

 

There is NO waterproof issue with the Oregon. The exterior design is totally different.

 

The back cover of the CO slides on and only covers about 2/3 of the back while the OR's back cover fits on and is tightened down with a clamp. The OR's back cover also covers the entire back of the unit. There is no "joint" to leak along the back.

[pratzert]

So.... it is the Colorado which has the problem... but the Oregon does not ?

 

There is NO waterproof issue with the Oregon. The exterior design is totally different.

 

The back cover of the CO slides on and only covers about 2/3 of the back while the OR's back cover fits on and is tightened down with a clamp. The OR's back cover also covers the entire back of the unit. There is no "joint" to leak along the back.

 

Tequila,

 

Thanks fro the info... I appreciate the response.

 

I'll be getting the Oregon.

 

Regards, Tim

[+Tequila]

 

That picture is on the wiki: http://garmincolorado.wikispaces.com/Issues+List but it doesn't have anything to do with the cover -- just a bigger O-ring. My new one has that. I thought the issue was leakage into the battery compartment because of damage to that O-ring?

 

As I recall, the picture I saw showed a larger ring on the cover as well.

[docjames]

Sorry, my typo mistake. It was october 2008 last year.

[+Tequila]

Sorry, my typo mistake. It was october 2008 last year.

 

That is ok. I think we got the tone of your message.

 

Let us know how things work out for you.

[+coggins]

Sorry, my typo mistake. It was october 2008 last year.

 

That is ok. I think we got the tone of your message.

 

Let us know how things work out for you.

Too bad you didn't think to get a dry bag for your "On The Trail" unit. How did you store you paper charts? Edited April 29, 2009 by coggins

[docjames]

Sorry, my typo mistake. It was october 2008 last year.

 

That is ok. I think we got the tone of your message.

 

Let us know how things work out for you.

Too bag you didn't think to get a dry bag for your "On The Trail"unit. How did you store you paper charts?

Sorry, don't understand your meaning. We don't use papercharts. The unit is suppose to be waterproof, that's the reason I bought it. If I have to put it in a waterproof bag, I mind as well buy a non-waterproof GPS. I ride around the islands all around Taiwan, most of the islands are too far to be visible by the naked eyes. So I do rely on the GPS for navagation.

[+coggins]

Sorry, my typo mistake. It was october 2008 last year.

 

That is ok. I think we got the tone of your message.

 

Let us know how things work out for you.

Too bad you didn't think to get a dry bag for your "On The Trail" unit. How did you store your paper charts?

Sorry, don't understand your meaning. We don't use papercharts. The unit is suppose to be waterproof, that's the reason I bought it. If I have to put it in a waterproof bag, I mind as well buy a non-waterproof GPS. I ride around the islands all around Taiwan, most of the islands are too far to be visible by the naked eyes. So I do rely on the GPS for navagation.

If you are taking an "On The Trail" GPS rated IPX7 and using a bicycle mount to mount it to a watercraft, then exposing it to an IPX5 environment, you shouldn't rely on only it for navigation. What is your plan for an equipment failure? You had better pack a paper chart of the area and a compass before someone gets killed. This is basic sea navigation 101. Also you would want some way to get weather updates and some comm system to be able to call for assistance in an emergency. I would hope you are a better doctor than you are a mariner. You might look into getting a SPOT or other PLB system.

防水功能： IEC529 IPX7(水下一公尺，30分鐘內防水)

Edited April 29, 2009 by coggins

[docjames]

Sorry, my typo mistake. It was october 2008 last year.

 

That is ok. I think we got the tone of your message.

 

Let us know how things work out for you.

Too bad you didn't think to get a dry bag for your "On The Trail" unit. How did you store your paper charts?

Sorry, don't understand your meaning. We don't use papercharts. The unit is suppose to be waterproof, that's the reason I bought it. If I have to put it in a waterproof bag, I mind as well buy a non-waterproof GPS. I ride around the islands all around Taiwan, most of the islands are too far to be visible by the naked eyes. So I do rely on the GPS for navagation.

If you are taking an "On The Trail" GPS rated IPX7 and using a bicycle mount to mount it to a watercraft, then exposing it to an IPX5 environment, you shouldn't rely on only it for navigation. What is your plan for an equipment failure? You had better pack a paper chart of the area and a compass before someone gets killed. This is basic sea navigation 101. Also you would want some way to get weather updates and some comm system to be able to call for assistance in an emergency. I would hope you are a better doctor than you are a mariner. You might look into getting a SPOT or other PLB system.

防水功能： IEC529 IPX7(水下一公尺，30分鐘內防水)

 

As I stated in another thread, I carry with me during jetskiing a SPOT GPS locator (which is IPX7), a Sonim XP3 cell phone (also IPX7), a Yaesu VX-170 two way radio (also IPX7), and a ACR Mini B300 ILS homing beacon (which exceeds far beyound this standard). All devices beside the colorado are attached to my life vest and take more abuse than that Colorado 400 unit. I'm not a mariner of course and only ride within 30-80 kilometers off shore to the main island. So I do not know the basic sea navigation 101, but I do consider every one of these devices, including the Colorado to be important and needs to live up to the standards its manufacturer claims. I've been riding jetskis for over 15 years and know just about everyone here in Taiwan that rides (Jetskiing here are for the few). I don't think anyone of them know what basic sea navigation 101 is. I do not use the bike mount, but instead I use the RAM-B-149Z-GA27U mount, which is a marine grade aluminum mount handlebar or rail mount with a zinc coated u-bolt base. However, I think even with the bike mount, the unit still should be reliable and live up to it's IPX7 standard. Now, I'll tell you why...because I've called Garmin service department after the first failure, and they said to me " the colorado 400T is shock proof and waterproof. There is no problem with you using it for jetskiing". We ride in groups but sometimes weather changes, tide changes, and unpredictable jetski failure do occur. Last year, 2 of my friends were lost and killed and that makes me care about any gadget I carry with me. Since you're a expert in IPX rating, tell me why a IPX7 rating shouldn't be rely upon in a IPX5 environment? Every other devices I carry haven't fail me once yet. As to the colorado 400T, my 1st replacement unit that I received last October died on me while I was only pushing my jetski off shore and it was splashed by a wave setting high above the water on a cradle mount. Every other device at that time was attached to my vest and was submerged under water until I climb up to my jetski. Guess what???? Nothing happened to them. So of course I think this Colorado unit have a serious simple design flaw. And yes, I'm a very good orthopaedic surgeon in my field and do owned a very reputable hospital here in Taiwan that saves lives every single day.

Edited April 29, 2009 by docjames

[docjames]

By the way, I was the last during the past years to buy a GPS in my jetskiing group. I bought the Colorado 400T over a GARMIN GPSMAP 60CSX because at the time I thought this unit is newest, better looking, and must have many improvements over its predecessor that also posses IPX7 rating and shockproof too. Well, my friend's oldie's sure live up to the company's claim. None of them have yet been sent in for service. Some of them are taped to the jetski. Some of them are strapped to their neck (which whenever you're coming down from a wave, the oldie's gets a pretty good bump onto the jetski).Some of them are tied to the jetski. and some are willing to buy a mount to put on their jetskis. We all ride the same places together. Their GPS NEVER failed.

I'm not pursuing this issue because I'm pissed off at them for making a GPS with false advertisements. I'm pursuing them because I think a reputable company like Garmin should be bold enough to acknowledge a problem when there exist a clear and present design flaw. I'm not posting because I want Garmin to give me a Oregon replacement as a freebie. I can careless about the money. If they would tell me, " yes, the Colorado back cover design is a flaw", I'd throw my Colorado away and buy a Oregon instantly. My line of work is to save lives. I valued lives. I'm a "recreational" jetski rider and bought a recreational GPS. Many recreations do have moments of danger involving life or death situations. Recreational or professional GPS, whatever that means, when they say it's IPX7, it better be a god darn IPX7.

Edited April 29, 2009 by docjames