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kayakbird

"TO FIND" Confusion

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All,

 

Maybe the 82 & 82 teams were as confused as I am by this station description:

 

portion of the DATASHEET:

 

QX0222 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By

QX0222 HISTORY - 1957 MONUMENTED CGS

QX0222 HISTORY - 1958 GOOD NGS

QX0222 HISTORY - 1982 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

QX0222 HISTORY - 1984 MARK NOT FOUND USGS

QX0222

QX0222 STATION DESCRIPTION

QX0222

QX0222''DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1958

QX0222''0.55 MI NW FROM BOZEMAN.

QX0222''ABOUT 0.55 MILE NORTHWEST ALONG THE NORTHERN PACIFIC RAILWAY FROM THE

QX0222''STATION AT BOZEMAN, IN SECTION 6, T 2 S, R 6 E, 5 POLES NORTHWEST OF A

QX0222''ROAD CROSSING, 64 FEET SOUTHWEST OF MILEPOST 141, 94 FEET SOUTHEAST OF

QX0222''THE SOUTHEAST RAIL, 29 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A TELEPHONE POLE, 3 FEET

QX0222''NORTHEAST OF A FENCE, 2 FEET NORTHWEST OF A WHITE WOODEN WITNESS POST,

QX0222''ABOUT 3 FEET BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE TRACK, AND IN THE TOP OF A

QX0222''CONCRETE POST PROJECTING 5 INCHES.

 

Track runs 322 TN away from the Bozeman, MT RR station. This means to me that you can

 

have a measurement either SW or NE of the rails.

 

MP 141 is on the right (NE) side of the NE rail at the given distance from the RR

 

station. An existing fence in poor repair is about 75 feet NE of the NE rail. There is a

 

line of telephone poles about 94 feet SW of the SW rail but no evidence of a previous

 

fence line.

 

Some ground disturbance from firebreak bulldozing both sides and maybe a new siding since

 

1957 on the left (SW) side of the main line - but well within that 94 feet distance.

 

Looking for ideas on which side of the tracks I should look on when the snow goes off.

 

Thanks, ML

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When a series of marks were placed along a rail line, it was not uncommon for the descriptions to assume the railroad had a fixed direction between cities, despite any bends along the way. They did not use a compass in this situation. If the line went mostly south, then "Railroad South" was the forward direction of the track no matter what the map said.

 

Try this interpretation and see if the description makes any more sense.

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My guess is that the mark is on the south west side of the tracks, that the references to "southeast of the southeast rail" is a mistake and shouldv'e been southwest of the southwest rail, and that the milepost marker was on the other side of the tracks back then.

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My thought while there was that the distance from the milepost is along the rail - one way or the other - and then turn a right angle to go the other distance. Was/is there a standard method to do this?

 

I covered all that ground, but with tall grass under 4 inches of snow and likely some loess since 1957, really didn't have much hope.

 

Thanks, ML

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All,

Don't think that I will have to worry about RR Bulls if I go after this one; but the RCMP might object.

On Montana's extreme list as 'Northern Most". Who can a guy trust any more! ML

 

 

TJ0796''STATION MARK--A BRONZE DISK MARKED---U.S. AND C.B. SURVEY---SET IN A

TJ0796''CONCRETE PIER NEARLY FLUSH WITH THE GROUND.

TJ0796 DESIGNATION - SLIM

TJ0796 PID - TJ0796

TJ0796 STATE/COUNTY- MT/VALLEY

TJ0796_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK

TJ0796_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

TJ0796_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO

TJ0796+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION

TJ0796

TJ0796 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By

TJ0796 HISTORY - 1910 MONUMENTED IBC

TJ0796

TJ0796 STATION DESCRIPTION

TJ0796

TJ0796''DESCRIBED BY INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY COMMISSION 1910 (CHS)

TJ0796''ABOUT 3 MILES NORTH OF INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY MONUMENT 515, IN SE 1/4

TJ0796''SECTION 23, TOWNSHIP 1, RANGE 2 W, THIRD MERIDIAN, ABOUT 100 METERS

TJ0796''FROM THE SOUTH BOUNDARY AND 300 METERS FROM THE EAST BOUNDARY OF THE

TJ0796''SECTION. THE STATION IS ON THE PLATEAU BETWEEN COAL AND LOST CHILD

TJ0796''CREEKS.

TJ0796''

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and here is another one:

 

THE REAL EASTERN MOST MONTANA MARK

SP0370 DESIGNATION - BOUNDARY MON MT ND ECC

SP0370 PID - SP0370

SP0370 STATE/COUNTY- MT/WIBAUX

SP0370 USGS QUAD - ODLAND DAM NE (1974)

SP0370

SP0370 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

SP0370 ___________________________________________________________________

SP0370* NAD 83(1996)- 47 12 41.40243(N) 104 02 41.64177(W) ADJUSTED

SP0370* NAVD 88 - 818.4 (meters) 2685. (feet) VERTCON

 

ERROR - THIS LONGITUDE IS IN NORTH DAKOTA

TH0870 DESIGNATION - BOUNDARY MON 585 CD US

TH0870 PID - TH0870

TH0870 STATE/COUNTY- MT/SHERIDAN should be ND/DIVIDE

TH0870 USGS QUAD - SKJERMO LAKE (1983)

TH0870

TH0870 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

TH0870 ___________________________________________________________________

TH0870* NAD 83(1996)- 48 59 59.37146(N) 104 00 00.87816(W) ADJUSTED

TH0870* NAVD 88 - 653. (meters) 2142. (feet) SCALED

TH0870|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

TH0870| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az |

TH0870| dddmmss.s |

TH0870| TG1977 BOUNDARY MON 585 ECC 75.264 METERS 15347 |

TH0870| TH0750 BOUNDARY MON 584 CD US APPROX. 1.3 KM 2700839.3 |

TH0870|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

WESTERN MOST BOUNDARY MONUMENT IN NORTH DAKOTA

TH0750 DESIGNATION - BOUNDARY MON 584 CD US

TH0750 PID - TH0750

TH0750 STATE/COUNTY- ND/DIVIDE

TH0750 USGS QUAD - WESTBY NORTH (1983)

TH0750

TH0750 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

TH0750 ___________________________________________________________________

TH0750* NAD 83(2007)- 48 59 59.46763(N) 104 01 02.82256(W) ADJUSTED

TH0750* NAVD 88 - 676.9 (meters) 2221. (feet) GPS OBS

 

Note: In the full DATASHEET the two North Dakota marks use the correct bearing for their "REFERENCE OBJECT". I will send NGS a correction. Does "holoscenes.com" take corrections?

 

If it stays cold & snowy, I'll work on the true Montana north mark this afternoon.ML

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Does "holoscenes.com" take corrections?

 

If it stays cold & snowy, I'll work on the true Montana north mark this afternoon.ML

Yes he does take corrections, he's a regular on this forum (Jim). Just go to holograph and send him an email.

 

But as for the Montana "northernmost" mark, since that is in Canada, holograph may want to exclude it. A good number of IBC marks that made it into the NGS list are actually in Canada and are attached to the closest US state and county.

 

Basically they were stations (mostly tri-stations, but some bench marks) used to survey the actual border monuments and are usually within a few miles of the border. I see them frequently in Maine and New Hampshire (or I should say across the border from Maine and New Hampshire) and I have logged a number of those. As for counting them for Holograph's extreme stations, that's his call.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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All,

 

Continuing to play with Montana's extremes (not counting the -6F we have right now with a Christmas Bird Count to do tomorrow) I have found that many of the many Boundary Monuments along the 49th Parallel are listed in the wrong county. I don't suppose that this will have a very high priority, but I will let NGS know. ML

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All,

 

Continuing to play with Montana's extremes (not counting the -6F we have right now with a Christmas Bird Count to do tomorrow) I have found that many of the many Boundary Monuments along the 49th Parallel are listed in the wrong county. I don't suppose that this will have a very high priority, but I will let NGS know. ML

 

Perhaps one of the NGS folks will comment if there is a particular naming convention regarding the border. For instance, when interacting with the State Boundary Commissions of NC, VA, and SC, I asked why a mark exactly on the state line always was listed as a North Carolina marker in the data sheets. The answer is that for situations like this, the protocol is to list the marker in the state which comes first in the alphabet.

 

That means NC also gets the markers on the Tennessee line. But we lost a few to Georgia. :-)

 

-Paul-

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Regarding the original question about the mark along the railroad track.....I notice that the topo map lists a benchmark in the area, but I can't find an "X" to indicate its position. Does anyone else see it?

 

-Paul-

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Paul, I saw that too and I think it is for QX0468 that is on a pier of I-90. There is a sloppy hand drawn arrow pointing southeast from the BM 4753. I think I can see the X under the eastbound lane of I-90.

 

If you look to the southeast there is another notation for a benchmark--BM 4769 with an obvious bent arrow drawn to the west (although it doesn't seem to point to a current NGS mark, it looks like the X is along a building and nearby QX0225 is on a building--the station).

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If you look to the southeast there is another notation for a benchmark--BM 4769 with an obvious bent arrow drawn to the west (although it doesn't seem to point to a current NGS mark, it looks like the X is along a building and nearby QX0225 is on a building--the station).

 

Paul & mloser,

 

thanks for your time on my little project. I think that BM 4679 is QX0225. Its elevation in the DS is given as 4772.47. I think the difference there correlates to a recent geoid correction of elevations in this area - if direction of correction is correct.

Thanks, ML

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When you revisit the site, stay clear of this spooky place (just a short distance to the southwest from QX0468. [Grin.]

 

-Paul-

 

Paul,

Nice shot!

I'll have to take another look for that "spooky place", but I think that you can mark it "DESTROYED". ML

Edited by kayakbird

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My blunder. The "spooky place" in Paul's post #13 still stands.

 

Now for a new "confusion" one that I stumbled across while randomly map pinning TOPO with possible winter accessible points.

 

Is there anyone working Yellowstone Co, Montana who could run out to Broadview and get the LAT/LONG for AI3752 R 537 RESET 1999 . The current DATASHEET places it in Madison County at the same coords as AI3758 R 574 RESET 1998. It should be at RV0681 R 537 1980 which it apparently replaced.

 

Exerpts from current DATASHEET retrieved today.

 

AI3752* NAD 83(1986)- 45 35 00. (N) 111 42 16. (W) SCALED

AI3752_STAMPING: R 537 RESET 1999

 

RV0681* NAD 83(1986)- 46 07 46. (N) 108 53 14. (W) SCALED

RV0681_STAMPING: R 537 1980

 

AI3758* NAD 83(1986)- 45 35 00. (N) 111 42 16. (W) SCALED

AI3758_STAMPING: R 574 RESET 1998

 

There are several marks in that immediate area. Maybe I'll try for them on my next visit to my son in Roundup.ML

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Subtitle: reading the fine print.

 

In reference to QX0399 (B 4 in the 1907 Precise Level Net from Butte to Huntley, Montana).

 

In preparation to fill out a recovery form I noticed that the mark was not found, but described in 1958 as being stamped with the elevation and "B 4"; followed by "GOOD" recoveries in 1984 and 1987 with out any mention that the cap has only the elevation stamped and neither the designation or the date. See my photo of the old style disk in the log.

 

QX0399_STAMPING: 4162.465 B 4

QX0399 HISTORY - UNK MONUMENTED CGS

QX0399 HISTORY - 1958 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

QX0399 HISTORY - 1984 GOOD USGS

QX0399 HISTORY - 1987 GOOD NGS

QX0399

QX0399 STATION DESCRIPTION

QX0399

QX0399'DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1958

 

QX0399'AND ABOUT 14 YARDS SOUTHEAST OF THE TRACK. A STANDARD CAP, STAMPED

QX0399'4162.465 B 4

 

QX0399 STATION RECOVERY (1984)

QX0399

QX0399'RECOVERY NOTE BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1984

QX0399'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

QX0399

QX0399 STATION RECOVERY (1987)

QX0399

QX0399'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1987

QX0399'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

 

Did I really find the original mark? Note: Numerous of these 1907 disks were stamped at a later date.

 

Mike

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Some time ago I found a 1916 USC&GS reference that required that all new disks set have the name and date stamped on them. Evidently it was not consistent before that date.

 

GeorgeL

NGS

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Some time ago I found a 1916 USC&GS reference that required that all new disks set have the name and date stamped on them. Evidently it was not consistent before that date.

 

GeorgeL

NGS

 

Thanks George, I'll go ahead and do a "FOUND IN GOOD CONDITION" recovery on it. Mike

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