Cache coast guard

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Since the most recent Cache Cop thread degraded very quickly and I had sort of a related question I thought I'd start a new one.

 

My question relates to caches which are described as "extreme". I've seen listings for quite a few caches which the owners label as extreme and the owners are usually very explicit about the risks involved.

 

Take, for example, a rather infamous cache located on top of a stone pillar a couple hundred feet high in the middle of a river. While the risk and consequences involved in attempt to get this cache are pretty apparent the owner is pretty explicit about all the bad things that could happen to you in the cache listing.

 

But, what about caches which are labeled as extreme, but there are no warnings, nor are the dangers quite so obvious. Specifically, I'm thinking about caches that involve using a small boat to access the cache location. There is an "extreme" cache fairly close by that is only accessible by canoe or kayak. It involves a short run down an urban "river" to the cache location. On this particular stretch of river there are two spots that the CO describes as waterfalls and even provides a photo of them going down the first one in a canoe and mentioned that the did it successfully twice. The water level was fairly low at the time, and was probably reasonably warm so it wasn't that difficult. While I only have the photos from the listing to go by, at least one of those "waterfalls" looks like a low head dam. Low head dams, for those that are not familiar with the term often referred to as "drowning machines". They look pretty benign but the recirculating effect they have at even low water levels can make them almost impossible to escape. In fact, the FTF for the cache wrote that the section of river *has* killed in the past.

 

Yes, I know that cache is rated a 5 for terrain and that nobody is obligated to find a cache that may not be safe, but the fact that it is rated a 5 and labeled as extreme is just the lure that prompts someone that isn't aware of the risks nor possess the required skills to mitigate the risks of seeking would could be a potentially dangerous cache. The "requires special equipment or skills" criteria for a 5 star terrain cache is only really useful if someone can accurately access whether or not they actually have the required skills. The consequences of underestimating the required skills to do a cache safely can be fatal.

 

So, to my question; Do I as a geocacher, and as someone with extensive training in kayak rescues and a thorough education in the dangers of paddling, have a responsibility to act as a "Cache Cop" or "Cache Coast Guard" and warn others about the potential danger of a cache as I described above?

[+trainlove]

I know of that cache and have been to some rappelling events hosted by someone who plans on going there or who has gone there already.

 

As for your question, I don't trust any terrain or difficulty ratings, ever since I saw an event that was a terrain 5 or close to that, and a difficulty 5 (come on). Thaat rating was changed from 1,1 about a second after it got published, and the reviewer should have balked at it.

[+wesleykey]

So, to my question; Do I as a geocacher, and as someone with extensive training in kayak rescues and a thorough education in the dangers of paddling, have a responsibility to act as a "Cache Cop" or "Cache Coast Guard" and warn others about the potential danger of a cache as I described above?

 

No.

[+OzzieSan]

So, to my question; Do I as a geocacher, and as someone with extensive training in kayak rescues and a thorough education in the dangers of paddling, have a responsibility to act as a "Cache Cop" or "Cache Coast Guard" and warn others about the potential danger of a cache as I described above?

 

No! You can warn some people until you are blue in the face and they will still attempt things that are beyond their abilities. What gets those people in trouble is their inability to "exercise common sense and caution".

 

At the top of each cache page...

Please note: To use the services of geocaching.com, you must agree to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer.

 

 

A snip from the disclaimer...

Geocaching, hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking or placing a Cache. Be prepared for your journey and be sure to check the current weather and conditions before heading outdoors. Always exercise common sense and caution.

 

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Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

http://www.geocaching.com/about/disclaimer.aspx

 

Looks like plenty of warning to me.

[Dj Storm]

What I would do in this situation:

Having the skills/experience and seeking the cache, I will write in my found it/DNF log about the dangers of kayaking to this cache.

Having the skills/experience to seek this cache, but without actually going there, I will (probably) send an email to the cache owner, telling him seekers might appreciate to have this information on the cache page. I might send this email also if I hunted for the cache.

 

Some cachers consider it's not their problem to get the owner's attention, some fear of how the owner might react. I sent two emails, one concerning a TB, one about an exposed cache container, and got positive feedback from the owners, so I will continue doing this.

[+Ambrosia]

As others have said: If the person has common sense, they'll probably heed the red flags and research things out to be as safe as possible. If the person doesn't have common sense, I'm not sure if warning them will do much good. Any time you get in a river, you need to have a basic understanding of what's in it/where it goes, and what the hazards are.

 

It's always nice to give an accurate account in your found log when you write one up. Especially if a cache seems perfectly benign and you know it's not. That helps warn/give info to the people who have common sense.

 

We have a friend (who's a cacher) who loves adventure, and has had some close calls in his younger days. He's realizing his limitations now that he's married and has kids. He's a very accomplished kayaker, and even was an instructor in Montana for a while. But I saw him decide to go over one of those dams at the wrong water level and get stuck. It was scary and not fun to watch and I'm glad that he was able to pop out after a couple minutes. Most people who know anything about that river portage around the dam for most of the season, however (it's ok when the river's high). That's what's nice about warning signs. We have a cache right at the portage that probably encourages people to stop and go around.

[+Mudfrog]

Nope!

 

Common sense (i realize that this isn't always prevalent) is what is needed in cases like this. The site, as well as the owner with his difficulty ratings, provide warnings. Yes. it would sometimes be helpful for the cache owner to provide detailed information and warnings for an "extreme" cache, but it still falls on the shoulders of the finder when making the decision to go for the cache.

[+johnling]

Nope!

 

Common sense (i realize that this isn't always prevalent) is what is needed in cases like this. The site, as well as the owner with his difficulty ratings, provide warnings. Yes. it would sometimes be helpful for the cache owner to provide detailed information and warnings for an "extreme" cache, but it still falls on the shoulders of the finder when making the decision to go for the cache.

 

I second that. Know your limitations.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Nope!

 

Common sense (i realize that this isn't always prevalent) is what is needed in cases like this. The site, as well as the owner with his difficulty ratings, provide warnings. Yes. it would sometimes be helpful for the cache owner to provide detailed information and warnings for an "extreme" cache, but it still falls on the shoulders of the finder when making the decision to go for the cache.

 

I second that. Know your limitations.

 

It seems that the general consensus is that I should not post anything and leave it up to potential seekers of the cache to exercise common sense.

 

That's all well and good as long as everyone that does try to use common sense does know their limitations. In order to know your limitations you have to fully understand the risk and consequences of the action your considering. I contend that when it comes to paddling a small boat on moving water that most people don't, As I said, a low head dam doesn't look dangerous. It looks like something that someone with limited skills in a kayak or canoe could negotiate safely, and someone with little experience probably could do it...most of the time. The problem is that an unsuccessful run can, and frequently does have fatal consequences. Just do a search using the phrase "low head dam drowning" and you'll find dozens of hits describe just how dangerous they are.

 

It's one thing to suggest that people should use common sense for something that is obviously dangerous and quite another when the danger is not so apparent.