76CSx vs 60CSx vs Vista HCx

[+Eaglecacher55]

At the risk of rekindling some of the argument that preceded in a similar thread (which I hope not to do), I have a similar question and fully admit to my total lack of experience and knowledge of GPS, but I perceive a great deal of both on this forum and hope not to make an expensive learning mistake by choosing the wrong one first (which will probably be the only one that I can afford) Background to the question::: I would like to take information from old deeds and enter/edit on the computer, load into the GPS and then go out and approximately locate the property lines from the deeds. I realize that this is not a "legal" method of surveying nor does it need to be, but rather an approximation that I can use in the pursuit of genealogy and history research, old cemetery locating (some I think could rival geocaching) and documenting outings and findings on a map by way of transferring outlines created by waypoint logging and transfer to maps for documentation and sharing. Now, finally the question..... neglecting the ease of one-handed use, ergonomics etc, which one would most appropriately fulfill the tasks that I have described. The price range of the three vary greatly, yet the features and specifications seem (from my viewing) to be almost identical and the field capabilities, from what I have heard appear to also be very close. Given the tasks that I've mentioned what are some things that I may be overlooking that would make one more suited than the other. (BTW, I'm not inclined to like the side buttons of Vista although if it stood out in front I could learn to live with it and probably like it.... battery life sounds like its better, although for what I would need at the moment wouldn't be a substantial factor.) From what I gather in what I have seen so far, I would need the MapSource 2008 Topo package for the computer. Is there more or alternatives that I should consider also? Thanks for any guidance that can be provided that would make my first decision the best.

 

Roger

[+zeide]

At the risk of rekindling some of the argument that preceded in a similar thread (which I hope not to do), I have a similar question and fully admit to my total lack of experience and knowledge of GPS, but I perceive a great deal of both on this forum and hope not to make an expensive learning mistake by choosing the wrong one first (which will probably be the only one that I can afford) Background to the question::: I would like to take information from old deeds and enter/edit on the computer, load into the GPS and then go out and approximately locate the property lines from the deeds. I realize that this is not a "legal" method of surveying nor does it need to be, but rather an approximation that I can use in the pursuit of genealogy and history research, old cemetery locating (some I think could rival geocaching) and documenting outings and findings on a map by way of transferring outlines created by waypoint logging and transfer to maps for documentation and sharing. Now, finally the question..... neglecting the ease of one-handed use, ergonomics etc, which one would most appropriately fulfill the tasks that I have described. The price range of the three vary greatly, yet the features and specifications seem (from my viewing) to be almost identical and the field capabilities, from what I have heard appear to also be very close. Given the tasks that I've mentioned what are some things that I may be overlooking that would make one more suited than the other. (BTW, I'm not inclined to like the side buttons of Vista although if it stood out in front I could learn to live with it and probably like it.... battery life sounds like its better, although for what I would need at the moment wouldn't be a substantial factor.) From what I gather in what I have seen so far, I would need the MapSource 2008 Topo package for the computer. Is there more or alternatives that I should consider also? Thanks for any guidance that can be provided that would make my first decision the best.

 

Roger

 

These GPS's are not accurate enough to survey. The best you can get under ideal conditions is an accuracy

of around 5-6 feet. Zeide

[+Eaglecacher55]

These GPS's are not accurate enough to survey. The best you can get under ideal conditions is an accuracy

of around 5-6 feet. Zeide

 

Yes, I realize that the accuracy is not of "legal" grade and as I stated, thats not a big concern as its not going to be used as a legal survey, but rather an approximation of old property lines for historical and genealogical purposes and for using cemetery locations from a map and pinpointing it given that you will likely not be able to see or locate it until you are right on top of it..... given the est 5-6 feet of accuracy mentioned (which is fine for these applications) can way points be transferred or projected to mapping software for sharing with other researchers, and will the units be helpful in finding property lines and corners (provided that the property calls are referenced to something currently usable and convertible to long/lat coords.)

 

BTW, 5-6 feet accuracy in some cases is far more accurate than some of the old surveys that I have seen and had to deal with when being re-surveyed in modern times and resold. I have seen closure errors of tens and in some situations low hundreds of feet.

Edited June 24, 2008 by rgant05

[bmirak]

As you noted, the three devices you've listed have very similar funtionality. I replaced my old eTrex with a 60csx, and I like the 60csx's screen and button layout better. Even though the Vista Hcx's patch antenna is supposedly just as accurate as the 60csx, I like the quad-helix antenna on the 60csx. If anything, it just looks cooler. The eTrex line gets better battery life, but 14 hours continuous use on the 60 is good enough for me.

 

I don't think you can really go wrong with any of these choices. It really comes down to what you find easiest to use. Go to a store and hold both the 60csx and the Vista Hcx in your hand.

[wallypop]

These GPS's are not accurate enough to survey. The best you can get under ideal conditions is an accuracy

of around 5-6 feet. Zeide

 

Yes, I realize that the accuracy is not of "legal" grade and as I stated, thats not a big concern as its not going to be used as a legal survey, but rather an approximation of old property lines for historical and genealogical purposes and for using cemetery locations from a map and pinpointing it given that you will likely not be able to see or locate it until you are right on top of it..... given the est 5-6 feet of accuracy mentioned (which is fine for these applications) can way points be transferred or projected to mapping software for sharing with other researchers, and will the units be helpful in finding property lines and corners (provided that the property calls are referenced to something currently usable and convertible to long/lat coords.)

 

BTW, 5-6 feet accuracy in some cases is far more accurate than some of the old surveys that I have seen and had to deal with when being re-surveyed in modern times and resold. I have seen closure errors of tens and in some situations low hundreds of feet.

 

You need a GPSr that delivers accuracy in sketchy conditions, meaning it will keep a fix under foliage. You can check out a previous post I made regarding the 60csx. It is the best I've seen yet for acquiring and keeping a position fix, in and around buildings and under trees.

[+jjreds]

Do you have access to geo data for the properties you are interested in? (polygons in the form of shapefiles?) Around here the county property tax dept has that data. I would load that into a program like ExpertGPS or similar where you can overlay with sat photos and topos (free) to check for evidence of old boundaries and either mark the corners with waypoints (the easy way) or create your own custom transparent map using cGPSmapper load this map or waypoints to just about any Garmin unit including the Nuvi series. Personally, I don't see a need for the Mapsource Topo package - there are better tools. City Navigator has just about every back road/dirt road/dug road and if you are out in the boonies and using a GPS'r with routing capability this will be much more helpful than a topo map getting to and from. You could also draw these polygons using the distance and bearing info from the deed descriptions assuming a decent start point which you might locate using the map or mark in the field using your GPSr and then transfer to the map.

 

 

[roybassist]

I realize that the accuracy is not of "legal" grade and as I stated, thats not a big concern as its not going to be used as a legal survey, but rather an approximation of old property lines for historical and genealogical purposes and for using cemetery locations from a map and pinpointing it given that you will likely not be able to see or locate it until you are right on top of it.....

Sounds like an appropriate and interesting use of GPS technology.

 

I believe that any of the units you listed will serve the purpose, and I don’t see anything wrong with making your choice based on your preferences regarding price and form factor. Of course there are differences between the units, as you seem to already be aware; but the differences are not anything critical, IMO.

 

One thing I’ve become aware of because of recent threads is the differences between Garmin’s auto mount cradles for these models. Apparently, the cradle for the 60 series makes it somewhat less than easy to plug in the power cable. The cradle for the Vista requires that you remove the belt clip knob from the unit and replace it with an adapter. If you were using it in the cradle a lot, I suppose you might just leave it set up that way. The cradle for the 76 series is straightforward and easy to use. You plug the cable into the unit and slide it into the cradle. The cradle goes around the plug and locks it into the unit. Very easy to insert and remove. Certainly not a make or break issue, but one more thing to consider. There are third-party mounts that may render the foregoing moot, but that’s a whole other thread. By the way, I’m biased: I have a 76CSx.

 

All of them will have the capability to transfer data to and from a computer. You can use Garmin’s software or many others, some of them free, to transfer waypoints, track logs and routes. There are a few listed here.

 

Don’t worry too much about compatibility for sharing your data with other researchers. Thanks to Robert Lipe and friends there is GPSBabel, which will translate from just about any format to just about any other. It is available as a free download via the above link. (But if you use it, please consider making a contribution toward its development.)

 

A version of Garmin’s software will come with any of the models you listed, but it won’t have any maps that you can transfer to the unit. As an alternative to buying Garmin map products, you might look into some of the free maps that are being created and made available by some talented and very generous members here. (And you might consider making a contribution to them, as well, if you use their maps.)

[geoprincesss]

These GPS's are not accurate enough to survey. The best you can get under ideal conditions is an accuracy

of around 5-6 feet. Zeide

 

Forget 5-6 feet. "Under ideal conditions" is the operative phrase, but that could also mean 1" sometimes. These consumer gpsr's should give repeatable accuracy in the 50' range. With a metal detector and gps you should do ok in that range assuming there are some iron markers. Get a SIRF 3 or similar High Sensitivity Chip receiver. Use the 50' figure for planning purposes. Many will tell you they get 10-15' accuracy, but that is reading what the gpsr is telling them which is often very different from actual and also not very repeatable if you need to understand what accuracy a tool will give you.

[+webscouter.]

For your needs I would recommend the 60CSX or the 76CSX with City Navigator.

 

The I would also get the ExpertGPS recommended above for your mapping and printing needs.

 

The 76 and the 60 models are identical internally. Some things to note.

 

The 76 model floats, the 60 doesn't.

The 60 is easier to use the buttons while holding IMHO.

 

The 60 series does not have the problem with powering in an auto mount that was referenced above. The link shown is about using an older style power connector with the unit. If you use the USB power connector that comes with the auto kit it works just fine. Use mine all the time.

[+Eaglecacher55]

Do you have access to geo data for the properties you are interested in? (polygons in the form of shapefiles?) Around here the county property tax dept has that data. I would load that into a program like ExpertGPS or similar where you can overlay with sat photos and topos (free) to check for evidence of old boundaries and either mark the corners with waypoints (the easy way) or create your own custom transparent map using cGPSmapper load this map or waypoints to just about any Garmin unit including the Nuvi series. Personally, I don't see a need for the Mapsource Topo package - there are better tools. City Navigator has just about every back road/dirt road/dug road and if you are out in the boonies and using a GPS'r with routing capability this will be much more helpful than a topo map getting to and from. You could also draw these polygons using the distance and bearing info from the deed descriptions assuming a decent start point which you might locate using the map or mark in the field using your GPSr and then transfer to the map.

 

 

 

I have deed metes & bounds calls that tie this parcel to the original boundaries of the 1000 grant given to the original War of 1812 soldier, which I believe may have a reference point that is "findable" to this day (but I don't know what it is yet) In tromping the woods I believe that we have found a "rock" that is a reference corner. The original property is rectangular in shape and an additional attached purchase has reference distances but follows "waterlines" of roads and driveways which becomes a little more subjective over time. The original property that was donated although it was rectangular in shape has a rounded and oval contours that conform to the contour of the hill and also the capability of mules to make a road around the cemetery, that was not exactly where the property line is. Its always been said that the line was the road and that anything outside the road was private property and anything inside the perimeter road was cemetery property, but comparing rounded and oval shapes to a rectangular set of calls, obviously this is not exactly true. The appendage that was purchase in recent years come up to a current state route, so I am going to try to work both from the state road and see how it coordinates with the "believed to be" corners on the far side of the original property from the 1896 donation of the land. There's not a dispute, so all of this is informal and strictly for educational and historical study. I think that with some of the software where I can begin to create scaled shapes and over lay them it may accomplish what I want to do. The sat picture (or at least the free one) is not real great resolution for this rural TN area, but I think it will help. I have the property tax office drawn shape and area estimation and the deed calls, which all add to the correlation, but until now (without a GPS) I couldn't transfer that information to the actual property. However it sounds like the 60CSx will get me past this hurdle. I have downloaded Corpscon but haven't used it. Is the ExpertGPS a purchase package or is it by any chance a free download. What other packages are comparable? and is the 2008 Topo a lame package by comparison? or what? Its almost a $100 purchase so if there is something better for less or better for the same price that will still download into the GPS that might be the best way for me to go. Is there a source of scaled satalite pictures or do you have to just overlay them and fit/scale them by way of matching up nearby roads to fit? Regarding my own property (where I live), I tend to think that if I can get close, I will see signs of one of the previous surveys. I do have an intersection reference of a creek and State Hwy that will serve as a hard and fast reference point and like I say, may be able to find more if I know where to look, but walking the woods is very easy to get off and turned around, so I am hoping the 10 or 15 ft accuracy will get me close to survey markers that may still be there. Optimistically I am hoping that a GPS will compensate for my lack of surveying knowledge and skill as well as the lack of equipment to accomplish this.

[+Eaglecacher55]

I'm downloading the ExpertGPS free trial and going to check it out as an "in lieu" of 2008 Topo from Garmin. I really appreciate the input that all of you are providing. I feel that your experience is guiding my decisions to keep me from making some expensive learning mistakes, which is what I was hopeful you would be willing to do. I am a believer in supporting freeware developers, and will certainly do it as I have in the past, but I am just not in the position (being retired)to be able to make a lot of purchases such as 2008 Topo for around $100 only to find out that something like ExpertGPS is better for my application at $49. Again I know that accuracy concerns when talking about surveying is important to consider, but as I have mentioned, I'm not trying to do surveying with it, but rather find approximate property lines and shape from topos and deeds..... NOTHING LEGAL!!! LOL Is there such thing as "Recreational Surveying" ?? And for me a very important thing is to take a cemetery location from a topo and be able to go to it and find the general area which many times for the ones like I am talking about are out in the woods on private property and have been overgrown and forgotten many years ago. I have even seen property owners who didn't realize they had a cemetery on their property and couldn't help me to find it, although they were willing to let me look. Thanks again for all the help you are providing..... looking forward to more tips and suggestions.

[+Miragee]

If cost is a factor, I would get the Vista HCx and purchase the older Garmin Mapsource Topo maps on eBay to install to it. The Topo maps on the GPSr are very helpful. I like my Vista HCx very much and prefer the button placement and click-stick action when compared to the buttons on the 60CSx. I've never liked the flat, TV-remote-control-shape of the 76 series.

 

The very best thing to do is go to a store that carries each GPSr so you can hold each of them and see which one you prefer.

[roybassist]

The 60 series does not have the problem with powering in an auto mount that was referenced above. The link shown is about using an older style power connector with the unit. If you use the USB power connector that comes with the auto kit it works just fine. Use mine all the time.

In looking back at the thread I linked, I see now that several people did mention using the USB adapter, but I had forgotten that since the OP in that thread had asked about the older cable. Thank you for the correction! It is never my intention to post misleading information.

[TravelingSquirrel]

These GPS's are not accurate enough to survey. The best you can get under ideal conditions is an accuracy

of around 5-6 feet. Zeide

 

BTW, 5-6 feet accuracy in some cases is far more accurate than some of the old surveys that I have seen and had to deal with when being re-surveyed in modern times and resold. I have seen closure errors of tens and in some situations low hundreds of feet.

 

I know what you mean about old surveys. I bought land out in the country about 2 years ago. I went to the the county records and looked up the old deeds for the land as well as adjoining lots and the survey notes were hilarious! One survey starts out at a persimmon tree and meanders along a stream until you come to a rock. I have been tempted to go look for the persimmon tree.

 

Anyway, I can't be much help here as I am a fairly new owner of the Vista HCx and it is my first GPS. I must say though, it is a great unit with tons of features. The joystick is really quite easy to use too.

[jmundinger]

If cost is a factor, I would get the Vista HCx and purchase the older Garmin Mapsource Topo maps on eBay to install to it. The Topo maps on the GPSr are very helpful. I like my Vista HCx very much and prefer the button placement and click-stick action when compared to the buttons on the 60CSx. I've never liked the flat, TV-remote-control-shape of the 76 series.

 

The very best thing to do is go to a store that carries each GPSr so you can hold each of them and see which one you prefer.

 

If cost is a factor, I think he should also add the SummitHC to his list for consideration. For the application that he described, it sounds like 24 mb of internal memory would probably be sufficient and he might be able to forgo the cost differential between the Summit and the Vista and also avoid the additional cost for a memory card.

[skirtbum]

I am an RPLS (registered professional land surveyor) here in Texas, and have used my 60Csx occasionally to locate property corners (then tied them with more accurate procedures). It can help you narrow down a search area if for some reason nothing looks like it is fitting the way you think it should. I don't rely on it constantly, but I have pulled it out and had it verify what I was thinking or let me know I was possibly way off.

 

I have also used it to find benchmarks and control points. Depending on what you want to do with the information, I think it is a handy little tool.

[TeamEcuador]

Well now you have me curious. This sounds like a cool and fun exercise. Any way we can see your results when the project is complete?

 

I think a little report on your project would be useful and entertaining to many of us.

[+Eaglecacher55]

Well now you have me curious. This sounds like a cool and fun exercise. Any way we can see your results when the project is complete?

 

I think a little report on your project would be useful and entertaining to many of us.

 

Yes, I will probably just start a new thread when I get something going. As a result as the input from this thread, I ordered a 60CSx yesterday. (although some of the "reversed direction scenario" has me a little apprehensive) It has indicated as shipped as of last night (Wed night) so I am anxious to see if it arrives Friday. I have multiple cemeteries that I am looking forward to finding. I have them located on the map and if I ask enough of the right people I could probably get directions, although sometimes the best I can get for some of them is that "you need a guide". I have seen this before, that without the property owners help, I would have never found it. The property lines that I am researching are a cemetery that I have accumulated a lot of research and history on, but the actual property lines are somewhat vague. 50' accuracy is somewhat acceptable although I would like to get closer if possible. I have a newer survey/deed that ties into the 1896 land donation, and I'm interested how this all works out. I have done some drawing of shapes in AutoCad and scaled them to satellite pictures and property accessor's maps, but its somewhat like superimposing a round peg in a square hole because the road which was always said to be the property line is a lopsided oval with curves where the actual property line is a perfect rectangle When I get to where I think I know what I am doing, I hope to use it to get me close enough on my property to be able to find old survey markers. I consider myself reasonably competent with a map, but in the deep woods I have gotten turned around and lost on my own property, so obviously I need help. LOL Thanks for the interest, I will work up something when my experience level elevates to the "novice" range in the coming days.

[+Eaglecacher55]

I am an RPLS (registered professional land surveyor) here in Texas, and have used my 60Csx occasionally to locate property corners (then tied them with more accurate procedures). It can help you narrow down a search area if for some reason nothing looks like it is fitting the way you think it should. I don't rely on it constantly, but I have pulled it out and had it verify what I was thinking or let me know I was possibly way off.

 

I have also used it to find benchmarks and control points. Depending on what you want to do with the information, I think it is a handy little tool.

 

I'm glad to here that I am not "barking" in the wind to think of using a "consumer" GPS for this. I realize that it is not a "legal" means of locating lines and never intended for it to be such but rather a way to locate lines of old deeds that in my opinion severely lack ways to find at this point..... or at least for me to understand. Somehow, I tend to think it often offers current day surveyors difficulty when you are dealing with a "rock" with "red oak and persimmon pointers"..... speaking of trees and rocks that were there in 1850 or 1880. In the case of my property that has been in the family since 1885, I am looking forward to seeing what the rock and tree calls look like today as compared to the more recent language of a 1970's survey. My original intent was to learn to be as I termed it.... a "recreational surveyor" with respect to old deeds where the property lines have little meaning today. I am inclined to think at this point that the 60CSx is going to fulfill this need..... as well as getting me to the nearest Walmart when I go to a new town LOL

[MtnHermit]

I have also used it to find benchmarks and control points. Depending on what you want to do with the information, I think it is a handy little tool.

I have to agree with you, very handy.

 

I recently took my new Colorado 24K Topos and Venture Cx to a nearby 40 Acre parcel to find the actual survey corners. A friend was considering buying the property. The property is totally surrounded by public lands, so all I had to go on were the land boundaries on the GPS Topos. As I'm sure you're aware, theirs nothing else to go on.

 

On my first outing I was able to find 3 of the 4 corners, then after making this map, I found the fourth the next day. Very useful tool.

 

The blue points are the corners, the red markers are various waypoints.